Off the shelf retail store screw-in LED and CFL bulb comparisons

[Mr. Sparkle]

Alright LEDers here is a breakdown of a Philips 8w "60w equivalent" Cool White "Daylight" bulb, the same applies to the soft white and larger 14w bulbs.

Now this is how they look currently today, i have a cool white bulb i took the dome off about 6-8 months back and it has soldered connections for the led instead, so just an evolution of their manufacturing processes, so 6 months from now they could look different and break down slightly different.


First here's the bulb is question, the Soft Whites are the same just a bit different components which you will see later.

First we take out the bottom pin so we don't rip out the fuse resistor when we take off the bottom

Next we pop of the dome, some are easier than others, i find if you can twist it first in order to break the silicone bond first then its easier to pop the dome off.

Next we take out the two screws and use a thin knife / Razor to cut in between the led array and the rest of the bulb, CAUTION be careful here one so you don't stab yourself and two it easy to slip and damage a diode, but work your way around till it pops off easy, you may have slightly bent the array but bend it gently back in place, hopefully no solder joints got broken which they probably didn't.

Now comes the tricky part, use a flat head screw driver to try and pry the "cap" from the main body, by prying at the edge and working your way around like a can of paint, these are just press fit in. Now some times they don't want to be nice and they require more effort, this is wear a set of needle nose pliers come in handy for riping out enough material till you can tap in an edge with a punch/screwdriver and hammer, then you can pry out the cap.

Here's an example of a nice, and not so nice ones.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Next take a pair of pliers and twist off the bottom portion.

Then we pull out the board and were done, the top board and LED array are from a soft white bulb for comparison.

Here is a pic of a comparison of different bulbs, we have a 8w Daylight on top, 8.5w Soft White in the center, and a 14.5w Soft White on the bottom, and an old gpu heat sink ill be using with these arrays,, there are so many options that you can use for heatsinks, this was what was easily available to me.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Hey Mr. Sparkle - I am a big fan of the cleanliness of your setups!

I was flowering at 20w/sqft with 16w units:

I am now flowering under 30w/sqft with 16w/14w units:

I would go 30w/sqft, though anything past that much light is probably overkill. I visited a friends garden with a 1000w and we have the same canopy brightness (roughly 50-65k lux)

Sooooooo... i have to share this but i almost went extreme over kill tonight, before realizing my error, as i just wasn't thinking.

So with a though of running at 30w/sqft i figured i needed 5 bulbs as my measurements were reading the Philips "8 and 8.5w" bulbs at 6W a piece, so 5 make sense, but decided to break down 4 soft white and 2 cool whites just to mix the spectrum's abit and keep things equally lit in a 2,1,2,1 fashion.

So i would of been at 36w, ok sure a bit more light but whatever its only 6 watts, now what i didn't really consider even though i was already doing rough calculation for lumens using the proper math with the actual area figured in is that my new space is a 11" circle, not near a full sqft but 0.66sqft , which means if i went with the 6 bulbs that i have already broken down i would be at 55w/sqft, and if you factor in "package rated" watts i would of been at 76w/sqft. So ill probably only use three or four of them, funny thing is i had a lamp that has a 8w cool white in it set over the new space and though it looked pretty bright and i didn't even clue into thinking of how 6 would look.

So yeah overkill just a bit lol, but saying that is you previous and current 20 and 30w a sqft "package rated" or actual measured ?

 

[jonhova]

Sooooooo... i have to share this but i almost went extreme over kill tonight, before realizing my error, as i just wasn't thinking.

So with a though of running at 30w/sqft i figured i needed 5 bulbs as my measurements were reading the Philips "8 and 8.5w" bulbs at 6W a piece, so 5 make sense, but decided to break down 4 soft white and 2 cool whites just to mix the spectrum's abit and keep things equally lit in a 2,1,2,1 fashion.

So i would of been at 36w, ok sure a bit more light but whatever its only 6 watts, now what i didn't really consider even though i was already doing rough calculation for lumens using the proper math with the actual area figured in is that my new space is a 11" circle, not near a full sqft but 0.66sqft , which means if i went with the 6 bulbs that i have already broken down i would be at 55w/sqft, and if you factor in "package rated" watts i would of been at 76w/sqft. So ill probably only use three or four of them, funny thing is i had a lamp that has a 8w cool white in it set over the new space and though it looked pretty bright and i didn't even clue into thinking of how 6 would look.

So yeah overkill just a bit lol, but saying that is you previous and current 20 and 30w a sqft "package rated" or actual measured ?

I think it's packaged wattage.

This guy takes the cake for overkill as far as i have seen.

 

[frica]

I think it's packaged wattage.

This guy takes the cake for overkill as far as i have seen.

Way overkill :lol:

He still got about 0.8 g/w even with suboptimal containers and an amount of light that's way past the point of diminishing returns.

His second grow looked sick, but he never updated

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=7798867&postcount=1035

 

[frica]

I think the 30-50W/square foot is still from the days of SE HPS or from the earlier LED days.

If your bulbs put out at least 100 lm/w, you shouldn't really go near 50W square foot unless you're also running extra CO2.

30w/square foot is much closer to optimum with modern efficient bulbs.

 

[Terpene]

All of the wattage I state with screw in LEDs is always actual wattage consumed. Advertised wattage is actually my problem with the LED panel crowd - my 240w Blackstar is really running at like 135w, which feels dishonest to me. I'd rather the guys at Lighthouse Hydro said "we only need 140w of LED to equal what a 250HPS can do" rather than rate panels based on HPS equivalents.

Anyway, yeah - 30w/sqft actual wattage used should be more than enough for any setup you want to run. Past that, you're primarily adding heat.

The 8w-10w bulbs are cheap, they are also less bright than higher wattage units! Running low wattage bulbs in a large array is sacrificing brightness intensity at the canopy. Better to run fewer, brighter bulbs at the same distance - take a look at this comparison for an idea:

At 1 inch from the bulbs, it doesn't matter so much, but at 6 inches, the 9w bulbs are producing the same light that the 14w/16w produce at 12 inches.

Mr. Sparkle, I have been waiting for someone to pull air over the LED bulbs like an air cooled setup - maybe a sheet of clear lexan/plastic? My veg setup has heat extraction at the top of the cab (holes for two 4 inch fans) but I always thought it would be neat to run the LEDs as a "cool tube".

 

[HuffnPufferfish]

Mr. Sparkle, I have been waiting for someone to pull air over the LED bulbs like an air cooled setup - maybe a sheet of clear lexan/plastic? My veg setup has heat extraction at the top of the cab (holes for two 4 inch fans) but I always thought it would be neat to run the LEDs as a "cool tube".


been there done that didnt save the pics, used sheet of glass(the thin kind) but youll still miss the uv and ir to a point youre not able to keep it at room temp, so maybe its cool (pun) if youre in AZ? no need for where i am, theres no such as summer

it works better than a hps tube, because its not a tube but indeed a sheet so no warping of the photons, ah well took me 2 hours to make and 5 minutes to trash it

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

@HPF Same here ran cfl's with a sheet of plexi under them, but i still have some of the pictures and there is still a thread out there on it.

@Terpene thanks for the clarification, and yeah i understand the inverse square law of diminishing light, but here a question or two too think about. When the source area is considered the same "the top of ones grow space" and the light that is outputted is equal does it actually matter?

Sure a brighter source will penetrate deeper but if you have two sources which are right close side by side that put out the same light as a singular source, will it not penetrate almost as deep, with the little less depth being taken up by the increase in the total area they cover?

Also on that point with singular brighter sources you also run into the situation where you can't get the plants as close and create a cone like bubble under the light source where plants can't go in without getting heat or light burned, and in turn also create corners of a darker nature vs a more evenly lit canopy that would come from multiple sources.

So it's kinda a tradeoff off of greater depth penetration but less square area vs less depth but more total square area covered, but the total volume of both is the same, and when in my case everything is gonna be 12" at max and less from the light sources does that depth actually matter? In taller narrower environments it would but then you could always side light.

"edit: add in" Also just to add in think of how cob led's are constructed and why that industry is going that route vs creating really bright singular sources.

Also i agree with you on the panel manufacture comment heck even bulb listings, say what it is and what it outputs, none of this equivalent BS, but then again some people just look at more watts being more powerful which when the source is the same then it's true but when comparing its false.

 

[Tbonegrower]

Mr. S. You have made my head hurt...

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Mr. S. You have made my head hurt...

so long as it was a direct result of exercising the plasticity of your grey matter lol

 

[ratsidecar]

I think it's packaged wattage.

This guy takes the cake for overkill as far as i have seen.

hehe, im still here guys and still working away

as you saw with my last post I moved from soil to 13 litre hempy buckets doing 3 at a time for the second grow.

My most recent harvest got me 7 and a half ounces in the 4.2 square foot space hitting 1gram a watt pretty much square on the head.
3.5 ounces off the ak, 2.5 off the blue mystic and a disappointing 1.5 from the white rhino.
Again these were grown in what I consider to be sub optimal conditions, I had a nitrogen deficiency most of the way through flower and no scrog screens were used so the buds werent packed as closely together as I would have liked and I was growing strains I had never tried before.
I believe with the right plants and use of screens for better training it would be possible to achieve 10oz in this space, or somewhere between 1.3 and 1.4g per watt. If I had grown 3 of those ak plants instead of 3 different strains that would have put me over 10oz without even using the screens.
With the overkill wattage (52w/sq ft) penetration seems to be less of an issue with these small bulbs, most of the colas harvested were around 10 inches long before the buds started to thin out and get fluffy towards the bottom.

I have some new plants which have just gone into 12/12 some progress pics will be posted soon. At some point I would like to experiment with gradually reducing the wattage in the flowering area and seeing at what point I start seeing losses in yield.

Veg is currently handled by a so called 200w (42w real draw) chinese blurple ufo in the top section of the growdrobe. Coverage isnt great but so long as the vegging plants are rotated every day or 2 so they all get some time directly underneath the light it doesnt seem to be a problem. Node spacing definately isnt as tight as the screw in leds.I might replace it soon with a few screw in leds as the fan on it is very noisy and actually louder than my extraction fan. Basically I veg 8 weeks from seed under this light before putting them underneath the electric supernova and starting some fresh ones off up top

 

[ratsidecar]

Mr. Sparkle, just read your post about source area and light output etc and I am now fascinated. I hope someone with a bit of mathematical skill or first hand experience will be along soon to give their input.

 

[argo430]

so here is another "Angle" on the penitration issue. 6" deep for the 9.5W so a blend of higher and lower 50/50 with 4 strips of 150W puts my 3x3 tray under 600 W of top and mid penitration but with 40 points of light at several angles should cover most lower areas just fine. 600W may be over kill but its what is in the current set up with the 315 as the center two strips stand in. the multi angle benefit is realized by the varing angles of the point sources. I am still not sure if you really need the deepest penitration as the lower 1/3 normally produces stuff that winds up in the trim bins/hash making frezer bags as nobody normally wants to trim it. just Trying to convince myself to try a 12/12 seed run with the led's only but it's hard for me to take the 300 out...

 

[Terpene]

When the source area is considered the same "the top of ones grow space" and the light that is outputted is equal does it actually matter?

Sure a brighter source will penetrate deeper but if you have two sources which are right close side by side that put out the same light as a singular source, will it not penetrate almost as deep, with the little less depth being taken up by the increase in the total area they cover?

Also on that point with singular brighter sources you also run into the situation where you can't get the plants as close and create a cone like bubble under the light source where plants can't go in without getting heat or light burned, and in turn also create corners of a darker nature vs a more evenly lit canopy that would come from multiple sources.

So it's kinda a tradeoff off of greater depth penetration but less square area vs less depth but more total square area covered, but the total volume of both is the same, and when in my case everything is gonna be 12" at max and less from the light sources does that depth actually matter? In taller narrower environments it would but then you could always side light.

Sorry, I sometimes forget this thread is in the micro grows section. You're right on all counts, I have zero arguments with smaller boxes and more evenly distributed wattage. My seedling veg is 2'x2'x2', large veg is 2'x4'x4' and flower is 5.5'x3.5'x8' so I always tend to think the lights will be a few inches off the plants.

My most recent harvest got me 7 and a half ounces in the 4.2 square foot space hitting 1gram a watt pretty much square on the head.

Ok, seriously, what the hell do I know? I was under the impression that your setup would hit the point of diminishing returns at 50w/sqft but 7oz from 4sqft is friggin ridiculous - and whats more ridiculous (awesome) is the fact that you think you can get 1.3-1.4 gpw from the same space when dialed.

 

[Medfinder]

Terpene i am thinking about getting this 24 socket string can you give me your imput?

ill be using 11 watt 2700k br30's with the top cut off.

SHINE HAI Outdoor String Lights 48FT with 24 Dropped Sockets Weatherproof Commercial Grade (Bulbs NOT Included)
https://www.amazon.com/SHINE-HAI-We...60022&sr=1-3&keywords=24+SOCKET+LIGHT+STRINGS

 

[n_d_ledz]

so here is another "Angle" on the penitration issue. 6" deep for the 9.5W so a blend of higher and lower 50/50 with 4 strips of 150W puts my 3x3 tray under 600 W of top and mid penitration but with 40 points of light at several angles should cover most lower areas just fine. 600W may be over kill but its what is in the current set up with the 315 as the center two strips stand in. the multi angle benefit is realized by the varing angles of the point sources. I am still not sure if you really need the deepest penitration as the lower 1/3 normally produces stuff that winds up in the trim bins/hash making frezer bags as nobody normally wants to trim it. just Trying to convince myself to try a 12/12 seed run with the led's only but it's hard for me to take the 300 out...

The solo cup bud was dense to the bottom bud of the main cola, the larf under it was just as solid buds, just not packed in to the next node. The top of that plant stayed 2-3" away from the bulb and the bud was 6"+.... Bulbs are the 9watters and I do not believe penetration is as big an issue when the points of light are so great.


Cant ya just turn that 315 off? lol

 

[HuffnPufferfish]

i think this discussion is like the tubes vs leds thing, you can use led to veg, its easy, it works blabla but if you use t5 and put them an inch above the tops, youll have way better vegging, it doesnt need the intensity yet but the overal spread and spectrum (but its a pain to keep plant tied up 3 times a day) so people use led, more and higher powered and get the same results, even per wattage (because of higher efficiency)
i prefer 6500 led for ease of use, but the 6500 tubes are superior in nodes per inch

 

[frica]

Or use T5/T8 replacement LED tubes and keep the diffuser on.

 

[frica]

hehe, im still here guys and still working away

as you saw with my last post I moved from soil to 13 litre hempy buckets doing 3 at a time for the second grow.

My most recent harvest got me 7 and a half ounces in the 4.2 square foot space hitting 1gram a watt pretty much square on the head.
3.5 ounces off the ak, 2.5 off the blue mystic and a disappointing 1.5 from the white rhino.
Again these were grown in what I consider to be sub optimal conditions, I had a nitrogen deficiency most of the way through flower and no scrog screens were used so the buds werent packed as closely together as I would have liked and I was growing strains I had never tried before.
I believe with the right plants and use of screens for better training it would be possible to achieve 10oz in this space, or somewhere between 1.3 and 1.4g per watt. If I had grown 3 of those ak plants instead of 3 different strains that would have put me over 10oz without even using the screens.
With the overkill wattage (52w/sq ft) penetration seems to be less of an issue with these small bulbs, most of the colas harvested were around 10 inches long before the buds started to thin out and get fluffy towards the bottom.

I have some new plants which have just gone into 12/12 some progress pics will be posted soon. At some point I would like to experiment with gradually reducing the wattage in the flowering area and seeing at what point I start seeing losses in yield.

Veg is currently handled by a so called 200w (42w real draw) chinese blurple ufo in the top section of the growdrobe. Coverage isnt great but so long as the vegging plants are rotated every day or 2 so they all get some time directly underneath the light it doesnt seem to be a problem. Node spacing definately isnt as tight as the screw in leds.I might replace it soon with a few screw in leds as the fan on it is very noisy and actually louder than my extraction fan. Basically I veg 8 weeks from seed under this light before putting them underneath the electric supernova and starting some fresh ones off up top

Sick yield from such a high wattage per square foot.