No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning

[Weird]

So, weird, if you don't mind me asking- what are your beliefs?
Seeing as you are a man of physics and at the same time keep respect for others beliefs, and seem to know a fair bit about them also- I would be interested to know.

Please Feel free to ignore the question if you don't want to speak about it tho.

My belief is that dogmas are a generically expressed disposition that evolves as we evolve.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thus my beliefs that there is a bit of universal truth and relative truth in all philosophies and religions including atheism.

I believe pragmatic value can be found in most any dogmatic or philosophical mindset. Some personally give me more than others, and some seem to hold more than just figurative narratives for metaphoric value.

I find value in diveristy, contrast and difference. I celebrate many dogmas, philosophies as I do many types of music.

I am not contained to my beliefs because they are always held against the light of tangible reality and reason, aka formulative intelligence and I do this because I understand and respect the inherent value of life contained in the humanity around me regardless of how it expresses itself at that moment.

My beliefs evolve as I receive data from the world around me and regardless of what they are, they tempered by my respect for how they effect humanity.

See this is how I have been able to grow during prohibition without overwhelming guilt, I am prepared to explain myself to a jury of my peers.

I don't smoke because it simply feels good, fuck the world. I smoke because it rights my mind and helps me be a better human regardless.

Interestingly enough, 20 years ago science, religion and government would have you believe that what I was doing was wrong on all accounts.

My mind was never so limited that I felt I had to hate them all because of it. It was never a them vs us, but rather the effect of human nature upon itself. The viral effect of human assumption.

But I never just did my own thing without questioning my motivation and its effect on the world around me, because in the end that is what it is all about.

Mindfulness and consciousness.

There are also things that I know.

There is no such thing as supernatural. Everything is natural, some things simply exist beyond our capacity to measure them, such as eternity.

We are all subject to time but we can't measure to eternity. Does that mean it doesn't exist.

Science uncovers what previous generations held as supernatural and will continue to unravel what is deemed supernatural as it better understands the underlying nature of the universe.

I know this as well. That by connecting with people of various beliefs by looking at commonalities and not contradictions has allowed me to exeperience many people of many cultures, creeds, religions., regions and mindsets and connect with them and enjoy the humanity we both share.

I have seen people of all types connect and create a the whole is greater than the sum of the parts to do amazing things.

Science is based on contributions from peoples from all segments of society hold a whole variety of beliefs.


[/FONT]

 

[Weird]

In order to prove belief is a catalyst to death you would have to show it somehow or that beliefs aren't nest or interpreted differently.

don't be chicken, find facts to back up your hypothesis.

One belief that leads to human death is that it is acceptable to kill someone based on their beliefs.

People of all different belief systems, Americans, have gone to fought in middle east.

Which belief was the predominant one that drove them to that place, the reverence for life embodied in most religious, or patriot duty embodied in the American belief system?

Not that we haven't fought on the side of righteousness, but have we always done that?

I posted reality that we have done otherwise.

So what is the rational basis for trillions in military expenditures based on 20 deaths a year versus the lack of expenditures that kill 10's to 100's of Americans a year?

Im sure if you watch enough network news you've been sold on the war.

Hook

Line

Sinker

 

[waveguide]

rancid fuckers. I like that one.

Glad to see you made it through another night.

don't be surprised if i'm here next year ..for one thing, it would make me look like a big old liar.. few months back there were legal "events" that would strongly implicate someone who wouldn't want that, if i were to meet with an accident. i guess i'll get to wait and find out if someone's stupidity is greater than their hate.. in the meantime, i get to keep blowing, wrap up all these songs and practice savouring each moment.

doesn't mess my plans up too much.

and fuck, if they don't kill me, when time's up i'll have that lovely video i took. fun times, huh to the motherfucking deuce.

 

[trichrider]

it's all a joke...

your oppressive cryptic cynicism of power of belief negates verity.
chase the tail of the oroborus all you like.

...thatch thy roof against the rain, and block the nourishing light of Aletheia.

"
The creation of the World Soul[edit]

Timaeus then explains how the soul of the world was created (Plato's following discussion is obscure, and almost certainly intended to be read in light of the Sophist). The demiurge combined three elements: two varieties of Sameness (one indivisible and another divisible), two varieties of Difference (again, one indivisible and another divisible), and two types of Being (or Existence, once more, one indivisible and another divisible). From this emerged three compound substances, intermediate (or mixed) Being, intermediate Sameness, and intermediate Difference. From this compound one final substance resulted, the World Soul.[4] He then divided following precise mathematical proportions, cutting the compound lengthways, fixed the resulting two bands in their middle, like in the letter Χ (chi), and connected them at their ends, to have two crossing circles. The demiurge imparted on them a circular movement on their axis: the outer circle was assigned Sameness and turned horizontally to the right, while the inner circle was assigned to Difference and turned diagonally and to the left (34c-36c).
The demiurge gave the primacy to the motion of Sameness and left it undivided; but he divided the motion of Difference in six parts, to have seven unequal circles. He prescribed these circles to move in opposite directions, three of them with equal speeds, the others with unequal speeds, but always in proportion. These circles are the orbits of the heavenly bodies: the three moving at equal speeds are the Sun, Venus and Mercury, while the four moving at unequal speeds are the Moon, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn (36c-d). The complicated pattern of these movements is bound to be repeated again after a period called a 'complete' or 'perfect' year (39d).
Then, the demiurge connected the body and the soul of the universe: he diffused the soul from the center of the body to its extremities in every direction, allowing the invisible soul to envelop the visible body. The soul began to rotate and this was the beginning of its eternal and rational life (36e).
Therefore, having been composed by Sameness, Difference and Existence (their mean), and formed in right proportions, the soul declares the sameness or difference of every object it meets: when it is a sensible object, the inner circle of the Diverse transmit its movement to the soul, where opinions arise, but when it is an intellectual object, the circle of the Same turns perfectly round and true knowledge arises (37a-c)."

 

[DrFever]

Wolf or how ever you spell it hahaha the age of earth is well documented and this is where many fail to understand how it can be recorded scientifically
The evidence against a recent creation is overwhelming. There is perhaps no greater attack upon science and rational thought than the doctrine of a recent creation of the planet Earth and/or the universe. This article collects known evidence that places a minimum age of the Earth beyond the usual 6,000 years quoted by Young Earth creationists (YECs). Deep time is the idea, held to be credible by natural researchers since the early 19th century, that the Earth is millions or billions of years old, rather than the few thousand of young earth creationism. The accepted age of the Earth is about 4.54 billion years,[1] while the entire universe is around 13.77 billion years.
These ages weren't just made up. They were devised from a range of experiments and observations made across multiple disciplines of science such as astronomy, geology, biology, palaeontology, chemistry, geomorphology and physics. They have been revised several times based on new evidence, but never to the degree of the many orders of magnitude required to bring them in line with Biblical literalism. YECs, however, ignore these experiments and evidence in favor of pseudoscience and their biblically-based view that the world was created by magic.
The entries below are listed in alphabetical order, while in the contents box they can be found listed by the approximate minimum they put on the age of the earth. It is also important to note that these dating methods are not mutually exclusive: where their range, accuracy and applicability overlap, the dates they produce are concordant with each other. It should be noted that YECs regularly claim that all types of radiometric dating are unreliable, going so far as to attempt to discredit the discipline through dishonest practices.[2]

 

[DrFever]

Based on the continuity of fossil deposits and other geological formations between the South American and African tectonic plates, there is much evidence that at some point in history the two continents were part of the same landmass. Because tectonic drift is an incredibly slow process, the separation of the two landmasses would have taken millions of years. With modern technology, this can be accurately quantified. Satellite data has shown that the two continents are moving at a rate of roughly 2 cm per year (roughly the speed of fingernail growth), which means that for these diverging continents to have been together at some point in history, as all the evidence shows, the drift must have been going on for at least 200 million years.[6]
[edit] Coral

Corals are marine organisms that slowly deposit and grow upon the residues of their calcareous remains. These corals and residues gradually become structures known as coral reefs. This process of growth and deposition is extremely slow, and some of the larger reefs have been "growing" for hundreds of thousands of years. The Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority estimates that corals have been growing on the Great Barrier Reef for 25 million years, and that coral reef structures have existed on the Great Barrier Reef for at least 600,000 years.[7]
[edit] Cosmogenic nuclide dating

The influx of cosmic rays onto the earth continually produces a stream of cosmogenic nuclides in the atmosphere that will fall to the ground. By measuring the build-up of these nuclides on terrestrial surfaces, the length of time for which the surface has been exposed can be inferred. This technique can be used to date objects over millions of years old.[8]

[edit]Dendrochronology



Clearly defined tree rings.
See the main article on this topic: Dendrochronology
Dendrochronology is a method of dating based on annual tree growth patterns called tree rings. Tree rings are the result of changes in the tree's growth speed over the year, because trees (in normal conditions) grow faster in the summer and slower in the winter. Thus, a tree's age can be found by counting the rings. Dendrochronology is the only method on this list that can date events precisely to a single year.
Even dates derived from individual trees are contradictory to the recent creation doctrine, since the oldest trees are old enough to make a global flood impossible. However, it is possible to extend the chronology back by using many different trees. The thickness of tree rings varies with the local seasonal weather, so a sequence of thick ring, thin ring, thin ring, thick ring, thick ring, thick ring, thin ring, thick ring shared by two trees is strong evidence that the corresponding rings formed at the same time. Each individual tree only covers the span of time it was alive and growing, but as these spans overlap it is possible to match up overlapping sections and work backwards. By observing and analyzing the rings of many different trees from the same area, including fossil trees, the tree ring chronology has been pushed back in some areas as far as 11,700 years.[9]
[edit] Distant starlight



The Hubble Deep Field, taken in 1996, showing light that has been in the cosmic vacuum of space for billions of years, not thousands.
See the main article on this topic: Starlight problem
The fact that distant starlight can be seen from Earth has always been a major problem for the young Earth idea. Because the speed of light is finite, what you are actually seeing when you look at an object is an image of that object from the past. "From the past" here has a few caveats regarding the relativity of our concept of the past, the future, and now. In the BBC Horizon program What Time Is It? physicist and former pop-synth player Brian Cox suggested that, as information cannot travel faster than light, and that time and space are relative, it can be considered that that the stars actually are what they look like "now", in a manner of speaking. Either way, though, the bottom line is still the same; the light has travelled a certain distance, for a certain time, before arriving on Earth to be seen by our eyes or telescopes. We can use this data to put a minimum time on the existence of the universe, by looking at how long some light has been travelling for.
On Earth, the delay caused by the speed of light is incredibly minor — when you look at an object a mile away, the light has been travelling for five microseconds. When you look at the Sun, you are seeing light that has been in transit for 8.3 minutes. It's more noticeable with sound and distant objects, but only because the light from things such as distant explosions or jet fighters is so much faster. There's still a delay and transit time for the information that says whatever made the light/sound must have been around that long ago to produce it.
On the cosmic scale of things, this delay is far from minor and really is noticeable. When astronomers look at the closest star to Earth (Alpha Centauri), which is roughly four light years away, they are seeing the star as it was four years ago from our perspective. When astronomers look at objects in the region of space known as the "Hubble ultra deep field", they are seeing the stars there as they were over ten billion years ago. Light we are receiving from these fields has been travelling for ten billion years, and the universe must have, therefore, existed long enough for that transit time to take place.
Therein lies the problem for young Earth creationism; if the universe is only 6,000 years old, how can objects billions of light years away — and therefore billions of years old — be seen?
There are a few creationist "zingers" to solve this problem, but are almost exclusively centred around pretending the problem doesn't exist. One is omphalism, which suggests the light was already in place and on its way 6,000 years ago, which is basically like saying that "6,000 years ago, the world was created 14 billion years ago", which is a form of Last Thursdayism. They also like time dilation fields and changing the speed of light, but this requires a lot of Goddidit to make it work, as there is zero evidence for why the speed of light should change. There are a lot of issues surrounding changing fundamental physical constants such as c, namely that according to E=mc2, increasing c to make the world 6,000 years old would lead to normal radioactive decay blowing the planet up. Qualified astrophysicist Jason Lisle came up with the "anisotropic synchrony convention", which exploits how to reliably measure of the speed of light, but suffers from special pleading in that it assumes a highly unlikely physical reality deriving from a mathematical quirk is literally true - and there is no additional evidence for such a thing.
[edit] Erosion

Many places on Earth show evidence of erosion taking place over very long time periods. The Grand Canyon, for instance, would have taken millions of years to form using the normal rate of erosion seen in water.[10] Nevertheless, Young Earthers insist it was cut in a few years following the Great Flood - but in order for this to happen the rocks of the Kaibab Plateau would have needed to have the solubility of granulated sugar, rather than the more solid stone that it's made of.[11] VenomFangX of YouTube claimed that the Grand Canyon would have formed in about "5 minutes", which at the very least would require the water to travel 5-6 times the speed of sound.[12]
In the case of the Yakima River in Washington State between Ellensburg and Yakima, the river meanders with many oxbows typical of a slow-moving river on a plain, yet it is set within a deep canyon with visible layers of erosion. The only possible explanation is that the pre-existing river maintained its original bed as slow tectonic forces caused the surrounding land to rise underneath and around it.
[edit] Fission track dating

Fission track dating is a radiometric dating technique that can be used to determine the age of crystalline materials that contain uranium. As uranium decays, it sends out atomic fragments, which leave scars or "fission tracks" in crystalline structures. Because decaying uranium emits fragments at a constant rate, the number of fission tracks correlates to the age of the object.[13] This method is generally held to be accurate, as it shows a high degree of concordance with other methods such as potassium-argon dating.[14]
[edit] Geomagnetic reversals

See the main article on this topic: Geomagnetic reversal
A geomagnetic reversal is a change in the polarity of the Earth's magnetic field. The frequency at which these reversals occur varies greatly, but they usually happen once every 50,000 to 800,000 years, and generally take thousands of years.[15] This fact is obviously inconsistent with the notion of a young Earth; around 171 reversals are geologically documented, which would make the Earth at least 8.5 million years old.[6]
[edit] Gyrochronology

There is a mathematical relationship between a star's mass, the rate at which it spins and the star's age. Stars spin at a lower rate as they age. The mathematical model has been tested against over 30 stars whose age was previously known using other techniques and is shown to be accurate within 10% for stars in the 1 billion to 4.6 billion years old range. [16]
[edit] Helioseismology

The composition of the Sun changes as it ages. The differing composition changes the way sound waves behave inside the Sun. Using helioseismic methods (models of pressure waves in the sun), the age of the Sun can be inferred. Using this method, an Italian team came up with an age of 4.57 +/- 0.11 billion years.[17]
[edit] Human Y-chromosomal ancestry

See the main article on this topic: Y-chromosomal Adam
The Y-chromosome, unlike most DNA, is inherited only from the father, which means that all DNA on the human Y chromosome comes from a single person. This does not mean that there was only one person alive at that time, but that a single man's Y-chromosomal DNA has out-competed the other strains and is now - not taking into account smaller and less drastic mutations - the only one left. Because the only factor affecting the makeup of the DNA on the chromosome is mutation, measuring mutation rates and extrapolating them backwards can tell you when this man lived. The most recent calculations put this common ancestor as having lived 340,000 years ago.[18]
[edit] Ice layering



A section of an ice core with clearly defined annual layers.
Ice layering is a phenomenon that is almost universally observed in ice sheets and glaciers where the average temperature does not rise above freezing.
Annual differences in temperature and irradiation cause ice to form differently from year to year, and this generates alternating layers of light and dark ice, much like tree rings. This method is considered a relatively accurate way to measure the age of an ice sheet, as only one layer will form per year. While there have been a few cases where several layers have formed per year, these incidents do not challenge the ability of ice layering to provide a minimum age, as these false layers can be discerned from the real thing upon close inspection.
Currently, the greatest number of layers found in a single ice sheet is over 700,000, which clearly contradicts the idea of an Earth less than 10,000 years old. Even if one were to assume an absurdly high average of ten layers per year, the age demonstrated by this method would still be far greater than that suggested by young Earth creationists.[19]
Nevertheless, the minimum age of the Earth identified by these means is 160,000 years. (+/- 15,000 years.)
[edit] Impact craters

The number of impact craters can provide a probable lower limit on the age of the Earth. Asteroid strikes that can produce craters on the order of kilometers across are extremely infrequent occurrences; the chance of an asteroid with an Earth-crossing orbit actually striking the planet has been estimated at 2.5 x 10−9 yr−1, and when multiplied by the estimated number of Earth-crossing asteroids this approximates about one collision for every 313,000 years.[20] If this frequency is correct, the number of impact craters on Earth were it only a few thousand years old should be very few. The most logical number of observable >1km impact craters for a young Earth would in fact be something like zero — a number that is completely at odds with the observable evidence, since over one hundred such craters have been discovered .[21]


A crater 1,200 meters in diameter.
Even if creationists were to present some scenario in which many dozens of large asteroids could hit the Earth in less than 6000 years, there are still tremendous problems with this idea. The largest asteroid impacts are some of the most catastrophic events the world has ever seen. In Antarctica there is a crater 500 km in diameter which is calculated to have been caused by an asteroid 48 km in diameter roughly 250 million years ago.[22] How the life we see today could have survived such an incident (if it had occurred in the last 6000 years) is a serious problem for YECs; an asteroid impact that big would have led to the extinction of all medium to large size species, an event that — given the creationist model; short time frame, no evolution — the world would have never recovered from.
[edit]Iron-manganese nodule growth



An iron-manganese nodule
Beryllium-10 (10Be) produced by cosmic rays shows that iron-manganese nodule growth is one of the slowest geological phenomena. It takes several million years to form one centimeter (and some are the size of potatoes).[23] Cosmic ray produced 10Be is produced by the interactions of protons and neutrons with nitrogen and oxygen. It then reaches the earth via snow or rain. Since it is reactive, it gets absorbed by detritus material, within a timespan of about 300 years- very short compared to its half-life. Thusly, 10Be is excellent for use in dating marine sediment.
[edit] Lack of DNA in fossils

Deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA), the universal carrier of genetic information, is present in all organisms while they are alive. When they die, their DNA begins to decay under the influence of hydrolysis and oxidation. The speed of this decay varies on a number of factors. Sometimes, the DNA will be gone within one century, and in other conditions, it will persist for as many as one million years. The average amount of time detectable DNA will persist though is somewhere in the middle; given physiological salt concentrations, neutral pH, and a temperature of 15 °C, it would take around 100,000 years for all the DNA in a sample to decay to undetectable levels.[24]
If fossils of the dinosaurs were less than 6,000 years old, detectable fragments of DNA should be present in a sizable percent of dinosaur fossils, especially in the Arctic and Antarctic regions where the decay of DNA can be slowed down 10-25 fold. A claim that soft tissues in a Tyrannosaurus fossil had been recovered in 2005[25] has since been shown to be mistaken,[26] supporting the idea that dinosaur fossils are extremely old.[27]
[edit]Length of the prehistoric day

Measurements of the Earth's paleorotation rates go back to work by John H. Wells of Cornell University on Devonian (370 mya) corals' growth lines. He discovered that the year then had around 400 days, implying a day length of around 22 hours.[28] Because the rate of change of the rotation of the Earth is relatively predictable—about 0.005 seconds per year—one can calculate the last time a year had 400 days, which was about 370 million years ago (which is also about the same as radiometric dating of the coral).[29] More recent work, however, suggests that the Earth's day was 21.9 ± 0.4 hours long about 620 million years ago, a value derived from studying "tidal rhythmites" of Elatina and Reynella, Australia.[30]
[edit] Lunar retreat

South African rocks studied by geologist Ken Eriksson contain ancient tidal deposits indicating that at some point in the past, the Moon orbited "25-percent closer to Earth than it does today."[31] The distance between the Earth and the Moon is 384,403 kilometers, so for Ken Eriksson's work to fit with a YEC timescale the Earth would have to have been receding at a speed greater than 15 kilometers per year. However, the Moon is currently receding from the Earth at a rate of 3.8 centimeters per year.[32]
More recent work on Precambrian sediments gives more precise numbers. From Neoproterozoic (620 Mya) "tidal rhythmites" in Elatina and Reynella, Australia, the Moon's major axis had a value 0.965 ± 0.005 times its present-day value. That implies an average recession rate of 2.17 ± 0.31 cm/yr, a little more than half the present-day rate of 3.82 ± 0.07 cm/yr. Going back further to banded iron formations in Western Australia in the Paleoproterozoic (2450 Mya), one finds a major-axis ratio of 0.906 ± 0.029, and an average recession rate of 1.24 ± 0.71 cm/yr over most of the Proterozoic.[30] So for whatever reason, the Moon is now outspiraling relatively rapidly, something that makes creationist-style extrapolation of it unjustified.
[edit] Milankovitch astronomical cycles

[Milankovitch cycles] are cycles of variation of the influx of sunlight, cycles caused by orbit and spin precession effects. Not only does the Earth's spin precess, but also the Earth's orbit. Its perihelion precesses forward and its orbit pole precesses backward, but in complicated quasi-periodic Spirograph patterns that also involve its orbit eccentricity varying. Combined with its spin precession, we have three main kinds of effects:
Perihelion Precession: over about 20,000 years, the Earth's perihelion time precesses through the seasons.
Obliquity (Axial Tilt): over about 40,000 years, the Earth's orbit precession makes the Earth's obliquity vary between about 22.1 and 24.5 degrees. It is currently 23.44 degrees and decreasing.
Eccentricity: over about 100,000 and 400,000 years, the Earth's eccentricity varies from nearly circular to as much as 0.0679 with an average of 0.034. It is currently 0.017 and decreasing.
These variations affect climate by making high-latitude summers sometimes hot, making them melt glaciers fast, and sometimes mild, making them melt glaciers slowly, letting them accumulate over the years. This explains the successful correlation between Milankovitch cycles and continental glaciers' comings and goings during the Pleistocene, the last 2.5 million years.[33][34]
This work has been extended much further back in time. At first, one might ask if it is possible to do so. But from some calculations, the Earth's spin precession rate has been declining as its rotation rate has declined, but its orbit-precession rates have remained unchanged over at least 500 million years.[35]. In fact, astronomical cycles have been used to improve the timescale from the Oligocene-Miocene boundary to the present. That boundary is now dated at 23.03 million years, to within 40,000 years. It has been more difficult to do that for the earlier Cenozoic, the Mesozoic, and especially the Paleozoic, since good cyclic sedimentary deposits have been more patchy.[36][37] However, it has been possible to find evidence of astronomical cycles in some 1.4-billion-year-old (mid-Proterozoic) sediments.[38]
[edit] Naica megacrystals

The Naica Mine of Chihuahua, Mexico is the home of some of the largest gypsum crystals on earth. Specimens in the area have been found to exceed 11 meters in length and 1 meter in width. Based on classical crystal growth theory, these crystals are older than one million years.[39]
[edit] Nitrogen impurities in natural diamonds

Nitrogen is the most common impurity in natural diamonds, sometimes by as much as 1% by mass. Recently formed diamonds, however, have very little nitrogen content. A major way synthetic diamonds are distinguished from natural ones is on the basis of nitrogen permeation. It takes long periods and high pressures for the nitrogen atoms to be squeezed into the diamond lattice. Research on the kinetics of the nitrogen aggregation at the University of Reading have suggested that a certain type of diamond, Ia diamonds, spend 200-2000 million years in the upper mantle.[40]
[edit] Oxidizable carbon ratio dating

Oxidizable carbon ratio dating is a method for determining the absolute age of charcoal samples with relative accuracy. This dating method works by measuring the ratio of oxidizable carbon to organic carbon. When the sample is freshly burned, there will be no oxidizable carbon because it has been removed by the combustion process. Over time this will change and the amount of organic carbon will decrease to be replaced by oxidizable carbon at a linear rate. By measuring the ratio of these two allotropes, one can determine ages of over 20,000 years ago with a standard error under 3%.[41]
[edit] Permafrost

The formation of permafrost (frozen ground) is a slow process. To be consistent with the young earth creationist model, which states that all sediment was deposited by the global flood, there would have to be absolutely no permafrost present at the end of the flood, because any permafrost that was present at the moment of creation would have been melted during the flood.
Because earth is a good insulator and permafrost forms downward from the surface, it would have taken much more than the few thousand years allotted by creation theory to produce some of the deepest permafrost. In the Prudhoe Bay oil fields of Alaska, the permafrost which extends over 600 meters into the ground is believed to have taken over 225,000 years to reach present depth.[42]
[edit] Petrified wood

See the main article on this topic: petrified forest
The process in which wood is preserved by permineralization, commonly known as petrification, takes extensive amounts of time. Gerald E. Teachout from the South Dakota Department of Game has written that "the mineral replacement process is very slow, probably taking millions of years".[43]
It is true that in the laboratory petrification can be achieved in a matter of months, but petrification is far slower in natural conditions.
[edit] Radioactive decay

Radioactive decay is the constant predictable decay of unstable atoms into more stable isotopes or elements. Measurements of atomic decay are generally considered one of the most accurate ways of measuring the age of an object, and these measurements form the basis for the scientifically accepted age of the Earth. There are many different variations of the radiometric dating technique such as radiocarbon, argon-argon, iodine-xenon, lanthanum-barium, lead-lead, lutetium-hafnium, neon-neon, potassium-argon, rhenium-osmium, rubidium-strontium, samarium-neodymium, uranium-lead, uranium-lead-helium, uranium-thorium, and uranium-uranium, of which every single one will date objects far older than 10,000 years.[44]
Because radiometric dating is one of the most commonly used methods of determining age, these techniques are under constant attack from young earth supporters. A few creationists, armed with only a cursory knowledge and a desire to think that they're better than scientific "experts", may misunderstand radiometric dating and just not believe it works. This is often accompanied by ignoring the high concordance of radiometric methods.
However, the most frequently used method of attack is to give examples of objects of known ages that were dated incorrectly. These instances are by far the exception rather than the rule and are usually due to unforeseen contamination or other errors that can be quickly identified and compensated for. This is not "cheating" and forcing results to conform to expectations as many young earth creationists may claim, it is making the data as accurate and precise as possible (if it is "cheating" then cleaning your camera lens to get a better and clearer picture is also cheating).
[edit] Relativistic jets



A drawing of quasar GB1508 and its relativistic jet
A relativistic jet is a jet of plasma that is ejected from some quasars and galaxy centers that have powerful magnetic fields. It is conjectured that the jets are driven by the twisting of magnetic fields in an accretion disk (the plate-like cloud of matter) found encircling many celestial objects. In super-massive bodies, immensely strong magnetic fields force plasma from the accretion disk into a jet that shoots away perpendicular to the face of the disk. In some cases, these columns of plasma have been found to extend far enough to refute the idea of a young universe.
For example, the quasar PKS 1127-145 has a relativistic jet exceeding one million light years in length.[45] Because the speed of light cannot be exceeded, this column must be over one million years old. Moreover, these jets are generally billions of light years from Earth, meaning they were at least a million years old several billion years ago due, again, to the speed of light.
[edit] Rock varnish

Rock varnish is a coating that will form on exposed surface rocks. The varnish is formed as airborne dust accumulates on rock surfaces. This process is extremely slow; between 4 μm and 40 μm of material forms on the rock every thousand years, and instances of 40 μm of accumulation are very rare.[46] Because the rate of accumulation is generally constant, measuring the depth of the varnish can provide dates for objects up to 250,000 years old.[47]
[edit] Seabed plankton layering

Fossils of dead plankton that layer on the ocean floor is used to gauge temperatures from the past, based on the chemical changes of Crenarchaeota, a primitive phylum of microbe. Much like ice layering and dendrochronology, researchers drill through the ocean floor to extract samples which indicate annual temperature fluctuations in the plankton fossils, or "chemical rings" as it were. A 2004 pioneering expedition to the Arctic Ocean near the North Pole collected samples dating back to over 56 million years of temperature dating.[48]
[edit] Sedimentary varves

Varves are laminated layers of sedimentary rock that are most commonly laid down in glacial lakes. In the summer, light colored coarse sediment is laid down, while in the winter, as the water freezes and calms, fine dark silt is laid down. This cycle produces alternating bands of dark and light which are clearly discernible and represent, as a pair, one full year. As is consistent with the old earth view, many millions of varves have been found in some places. The Green River formation in eastern Utah is home to an estimated twenty million years worth of sedimentary layers.
The creationist response is that, instead of once per year, these varves formed many hundreds of times per year. There is, however, much evidence against accelerated formation of varves.
Pollen in varves is much more concentrated in the upper part of the dark layer, which is thought to represent spring. This is what would be expected if varves formed only once per year because pollen is much more common at this time.[49]
In Lake Suigetsu, Japan, there is a seasonal die-off of diatoms (calcareous algae) that will form layers in the bottom of the lake along with the sedimentary varves. If the 29 thousand varves in the lake formed more than once per year, there should be several sediment layers for every layer of deceased algae. However, for every one white layer of algae in Lake Suigetsu, there is only one varve.[50]
The varve thickness in the Green River formation correlates with both the 11 year sunspot cycle and the 21 thousand year orbital cycle of the earth.[51]
[edit] Space weathering

Space weathering is an effect that is observed on most asteroids. Extraterrestrial objects tend to develop a red tint as they age due to the effects of cosmic radiation and micrometeor impacts on their surfaces. Because this process proceeds at a constant rate, observing the color of an object can provide the basis for a generally reliable estimate. The ages provided by this dating technique exceed millions of years.[52]
[edit] Stalactites



A stalactite
A stalactite is a mineral deposit that is usually - though not exclusively - found in limestone caves. They are formed on the ceilings of caverns by the slow deposition of calcium carbonate and other minerals as they drip, in solution, over the stalactite. These formations take extremely lengthy periods to form; the average growth rate is not much more than 0.1 mm per year (10 centimetres (4 inches!) per thousand years). With such a slow rate of formation, if the earth was less than ten thousand years old we would expect to see the largest stalactites being not much longer than one metre.[29] In fact stalactites frequently reach from the ceiling to the floor of large caverns.
It is true that cases of accelerated growth have been observed in some stalactites, but rapid growths are only temporary, as the rapidly growing stalactites quickly deplete the surrounding limestone.[29]
[edit] Thermoluminescence dating

Thermoluminescence dating is a method for determining the age of objects containing crystalline minerals, such as ceramics or lava. These materials contain electrons that have been released from their atoms by ambient radiation, but have become trapped by imperfections in the mineral's structure. When one of these minerals is heated, the trapped electrons are discharged and produce light, and that light can be measured and compared with the level of surrounding radiation to establish the amount of time that has passed since the material was last heated (and its trapped electrons were last released).
Although this technique can date objects up to approximately 230,000 years ago, is only accurate on objects 300 to 10,000 years in age. This is, however, still over 4,000 years older than the creationist figure for the age of the earth.[53]
[edit] Weathering rinds

Weathering rinds are layers of weathered material that develop on glacial rocks. The weathering is caused by the oxidation of magnesium and iron rich minerals, and the thickness of this layer correlates with the age of a sample. Certain weathering rinds on basalt and andesite rocks in the eastern United States are believed to have taken over 300,000 years to form.[54]

 

[Siever]

Imaginary gods?From which god is there proven evidence?
What does god has to do with the big bang theory?

 

[Jericho Mile]

don't be surprised if i'm here next year ..for one thing, it would make me look like a big old liar.. few months back there were legal "events" that would strongly implicate someone who wouldn't want that, if i were to meet with an accident. i guess i'll get to wait and find out if someone's stupidity is greater than their hate.. in the meantime, i get to keep blowing, wrap up all these songs and practice savouring each moment.

doesn't mess my plans up too much.

and fuck, if they don't kill me, when time's up i'll have that lovely video i took. fun times, huh to the motherfucking deuce.

If you are geared for such an experience..blessed it be. I really wish you well. I'm attempting to grasp at the root of your motivation. Are you correcting a wrong? Sometimes it may be that we lose sight of our motivations....like in No Big Bang...spinning out of the unreason

 

[Jericho Mile]

Imaginary gods?From which god is there proven evidence?
What does god has to do with the big bang theory?

nothing...but stand by

 

[Weird]

He can't say....really wants to though. There's a reason why this thread doesn't get deleted. If he says..his pass may be revoked. IC Mag taught buddhist...one can guess. It's a syndicate on here.

you can create a thread about a belief in nothingness and I wont judge you dude, but if it causes you to be prejudice I will make sure to point it out.

I have no issue sharing my beliefs. Do I promote the propagation of the lotus sutra? Yes. Do I judge people who choose not to come to the thread for that purpose? No.

Do I interpret Nichiren Buddhism the same ways as others might? No not at all. Same as I found with Christianity, there is pragmatic value contained therein.

I find the same thing exists (pragmatic value) in Hermetic and Wicca teachings as well.

So I practice them, do I believe in them all to distill value, or do I use an anthropological/sociological approach with them, finding value in the like patterns contained within.

Darwin observed evolution within nature through patterns, as I do in regards to humanity and religion.

The fact that belief causes such distress in you that you think it causes irrational thoughts in others is projection of your own incapacity on others.

If that offends you then that is on you.

All you have to do is prove that belief corrupts the genes of the believer making them human with the impossibility of reform.

Maybe if people stopped buying into the American military complex they would demand trillions go to public services not private interest like Halliburton.

I guess you didn't come to IC mag to learn anything, another dude who fell out of the womb perfect, but you did come to teach people they were wrong, based on belief, and the class act that you are has conclusive evidence thereof.

And of course a humanistic agenda, because if we eliminate religion we can save 20 americans from terrorism

unless its all resource driven and occurs in areas that are not predominantly religious as they are predominantly impoverished

 

[Weird]

it is not something born from belief but born from psychology (which is atheist)

http://www.tolerance.org/supplement/test-yourself-hidden-bias

Test Yourself for Hidden Bias

Psychologists at Harvard, the University of Virginia and the University of Washington created "Project Implicit"to develop Hidden Bias Tests — called Implicit Association Tests, or IATs, in the academic world — to measure unconscious bias.

To take Project Implicit's Hidden Bias Tests, click here. You may be asked to register.

About Stereotypes and Prejudices

Hidden Bias Tests measure unconscious, or automatic, biases. Your willingness to examine your own possible biases is an important step in understanding the roots of stereotypes and prejudice in our society.

The ability to distinguish friend from foe helped early humans survive, and the ability to quickly and automatically categorize people is a fundamental quality of the human mind. Categories give order to life, and every day, we group other people into categories based on social and other characteristics.

This is the foundation of stereotypes, prejudice and, ultimately, discrimination.

Definition of terms
A stereotype is an exaggerated belief, image or distorted truth about a person or group — a generalization that allows for little or no individual differences or social variation. Stereotypes are based on images in mass media, or reputations passed on by parents, peers and other members of society. Stereotypes can be positive or negative.

A prejudice is an opinion, prejudgment or attitude about a group or its individual members. A prejudice can be positive, but in our usage refers to a negative attitude.

Prejudices are often accompanied by ignorance, fear or hatred. Prejudices are formed by a complex psychological process that begins with attachment to a close circle of acquaintances or an "in-group" such as a family. Prejudice is often aimed at "out-groups."

Discrimination is behavior that treats people unequally because of their group memberships. Discriminatory behavior, ranging from slights to hate crimes, often begins with negative stereotypes and prejudices.

How do we learn prejudice?
Social scientists believe children begin to acquire prejudices and stereotypes as toddlers. Many studies have shown that as early as age 3, children pick up terms of racial prejudice without really understanding their significance.

Soon, they begin to form attachments to their own group and develop negative attitudes about other racial or ethnic groups, or the "out-group". Early in life, most children acquire a full set of biases that can be observed in verbal slurs, ethnic jokes and acts of discrimination.

How are our biases reinforced?
Once learned, stereotypes and prejudices resist change, even when evidence fails to support them or points to the contrary.

People will embrace anecdotes that reinforce their biases, but disregard experience that contradicts them. The statement "Some of my best friends are _____" captures this tendency to allow some exceptions without changing our bias.

How do we perpetuate bias?
Bias is perpetuated by conformity with in-group attitudes and socialization by the culture at large. The fact that white culture is dominant in America may explain why people of color often do not show a strong bias favoring their own ethnic group.

Mass media routinely take advantage of stereotypes as shorthand to paint a mood, scene or character. The elderly, for example, are routinely portrayed as being frail and forgetful, while younger people are often shown as vibrant and able.

Stereotypes can also be conveyed by omission in popular culture, as when TV shows present an all-white world. Psychologists theorize bias conveyed by the media helps to explain why children can adopt hidden prejudices even when their family environments explicitly oppose them.

About Hidden Bias
Scientific research has demonstrated that biases thought to be absent or extinguished remain as "mental residue" in most of us. Studies show people can be consciously committed to egalitarianism, and deliberately work to behave without prejudice, yet still possess hidden negative prejudices or stereotypes.

"Implicit Association Tests" (IATs) can tap those hidden, or automatic, stereotypes and prejudices that circumvent conscious control. Project Implicit — a collaborative research effort between researchers at Harvard University, the University of Virginia, and University of Washington — offers dozens of such tests.

We believe the IAT procedure may be useful beyond the research purposes for which it was originally developed. It may be a tool that can jumpstart our thinking about hidden biases: Where do they come from? How do they influence our actions? What can we do about them?

Biases and behavior
A growing number of studies show a link between hidden biases and actual behavior. In other words, hidden biases can reveal themselves in action, especially when a person's efforts to control behavior consciously flags under stress, distraction, relaxation or competition.

Unconscious beliefs and attitudes have been found to be associated with language and certain behaviors such as eye contact, blinking rates and smiles.

Studies have found, for example, that school teachers clearly telegraph prejudices, so much so that some researchers believe children of color and white children in the same classroom effectively receive different educations.

A now classic experiment showed that white interviewers sat farther away from black applicants than from white applicants, made more speech errors and ended the interviews 25% sooner. Such discrimination has been shown to diminish the performance of anyone treated that way, whether black or white.

Experiments are being conducted to determine whether a strong hidden bias in someone results in more discriminatory behavior. But we can learn something from even the first studies:

Those who showed greater levels of implicit prejudice toward, or stereotypes of, black or gay people were more unfriendly toward them.
Subjects who had a stronger hidden race bias had more activity in a part of the brain known to be responsible for emotional learning when shown black faces than when shown white faces.

Leading to discrimination?
Whether laboratory studies adequately reflect real-life situations is not firmly established. But there is growing evidence, according to social scientists, that hidden biases are related to discriminatory behavior in a wide range of human interactions, from hiring and promotions to choices of housing and schools.

In the case of police, bias may affect split-second, life-or-death decisions. Shootings of black men incorrectly thought to be holding guns — an immigrant in New York, a cop in Rhode Island — brought this issue into the public debate.

It is possible unconscious prejudices and stereotypes may also affect court jury deliberations and other daily tasks requiring judgments of human character.

People who argue that prejudice is not a big problem today are, ironically, demonstrating the problem of unconscious prejudice. Because these prejudices are outside our awareness, they can indeed be denied.

The Effects of Prejudice and Stereotypes
Hidden bias has emerged as an important clue to the disparity between public opinion, as expressed by America's creed and social goals, and the amount of discrimination that still exists.

Despite 30 years of equal-rights legislation, levels of poverty, education and success vary widely across races. Discrimination continues in housing and real estate sales, and racial profiling is a common practice, even among ordinary citizens.

Members of minorities continue to report humiliating treatment by store clerks, co-workers and police. While an African American man may dine in a fine restaurant anywhere in America, it can be embarrassing for him to attempt to flag down a taxi after that dinner.

A person who carries the stigma of group membership must be prepared for its debilitating effects.

Studies indicate that African American teenagers are aware they are stigmatized as being intellectually inferior and that they go to school bearing what psychologist Claude Steele has called a "burden of suspicion." Such a burden can affect their attitudes and achievement.

Similarly, studies found that when college women are reminded their group is considered bad at math, their performance may fulfill this prophecy.

These shadows hang over stigmatized people no matter their status or accomplishments. They must remain on guard and bear an additional burden that may affect their self-confidence, performance and aspirations. These stigmas have the potential to rob them of their individuality and debilitate their attempts to break out of stereotypical roles.

What You Can Do About Unconscious Stereotypes and Prejudices
Conscious attitudes and beliefs can change.

The negative stereotypes associated with many immigrant groups, for example, have largely disappeared over time. For African-Americans, civil rights laws forced integration and nondiscrimination, which, in turn, helped to change public opinion.

But psychologists have no ready roadmap for undoing such overt and especially hidden stereotypes and prejudices.

Learned at an early age
The first step may be to admit biases are learned early and are counter to our commitment to just treatment. Parents, teachers, faith leaders and other community leaders can help children question their values and beliefs and point out subtle stereotypes used by peers and in the media. Children should also be surrounded by cues that equality matters.

In his classic book, The Nature of Prejudice, the psychologist Gordon Allport observed children are more likely to grow up tolerant if they live in a home that is supportive and loving. "They feel welcome, accepted, loved, no matter what they do."

In such an environment, different views are welcomed, punishment is not harsh or capricious, and these children generally think of people positively and carry a sense of goodwill and even affection.

Community matters
Integration, by itself, has not been shown to produce dramatic changes in attitudes and behavior. But many studies show when people work together in a structured environment to solve shared problems through community service, their attitudes about diversity can change dramatically.

By including members of other groups in a task, children begin to think of themselves as part of a larger community in which everyone has skills and can contribute. Such experiences have been shown to improve attitudes across racial lines and between people old and young.

There also is preliminary evidence that unconscious attitudes, contrary to initial expectations, may be malleable. For example, imagining strong women leaders or seeing positive role models of African Americans has been shown to, at least temporarily, change unconscious biases.

'Feeling' unconscious bias
But there is another aspect of the very experience of taking a test of hidden bias that may be helpful. Many test takers can "feel" their hidden prejudices as they perform the tests.

They can feel themselves unable to respond as rapidly to (for example) old + good concepts than young + good concepts. The very act of taking the tests can force hidden biases into the conscious part of the mind.

We would like to believe that when a person has a conscious commitment to change, the very act of discovering one's hidden biases can propel one to act to correct for it. It may not be possible to avoid the automatic stereotype or prejudice, but it is certainly possible to consciously rectify it.

Committing to change
If people are aware of their hidden biases, they can monitor and attempt to ameliorate hidden attitudes before they are expressed through behavior. This compensation can include attention to language, body language and to the stigmatization felt by target groups.

Common sense and research evidence also suggest that a change in behavior can modify beliefs and attitudes. It would seem logical that a conscious decision to be egalitarian might lead one to widen one's circle of friends and knowledge of other groups. Such efforts may, over time, reduce the strength of unconscious biases.

It can be easy to reject the results of the tests as "not me" when you first encounter them. But that's the easy path. To ask where these biases come from, what they mean, and what we can do about them is the harder task.

Recognizing that the problem is in many others — as well as in ourselves — should motivate us all to try both to understand and to act.

 

[Weird]

amazing my beliefs allow me to adhere to atheist academia and certain atheist and agnostics can't

ohhh the irony

 

[Jericho Mile]

you can create a thread about a belief in nothingness and I wont judge you dude, but if it causes you to be prejudice I will make sure to point it out.

I have no issue sharing my beliefs. Do I promote the propagation of the lotus sutra? Yes. Do I judge people who choose not to come to the thread for that purpose? No.

Do I interpret Nichiren Buddhism the same ways as others might? No not at all. Same as I found with Christianity, there is pragmatic value contained therein.

I find the same thing exists (pragmatic value) in Hermetic and Wicca teachings as well.

So I practice them, do I believe in them all to distill value, or do I use an anthropological/sociological approach with them, finding value in the like patterns contained within.

Darwin observed evolution within nature through patterns, as I do in regards to humanity and religion.

The fact that belief causes such distress in you that you think it causes irrational thoughts in others is projection of your own incapacity on others.

If that offends you then that is on you.

All you have to do is prove that belief corrupts the genes of the believer making them human with the impossibility of reform.

Maybe if people stopped buying into the American military complex they would demand trillions go to public services not private interest like Halliburton.

I guess you didn't come to IC mag to learn anything, another dude who fell out of the womb perfect, but you did come to teach people they were wrong, based on belief, and the class act that you are has conclusive evidence thereof.

And of course a humanistic agenda, because if we eliminate religion we can save 20 americans from terrorism

unless its all resource driven and occurs in areas that are not predominantly religious as they are predominantly impoverished

around and around and around..

I came on IC mag to be entertained....just like it says on the front page...educational and entertainment purposes. I'm eating my breakfast of rice and beans..sipping my tea...preparing the rest of my day...and fucking off being entertained. Educational...yes there's that:


Are you attempting to teach? Are you well traveled..beyond the cyber reality? Are you out there..getting your hands dirty...opening your eyes to cultures?....or are your experiences others?

I'm not hearing you...I'm watching endless streams of computer generated babble...that you really are not expecting anyone to read. I'd be more inclined to take you serious if you were really wandering the world in search of enlightenment..having real life experiences...rather than playing with a bunch of stoners on a stoner forum

What is the goal of this thread? In one burp of a paragraph please.

 

[Wö£fëñxXx]

Maybe we should shoot some skeet.

wave, the little witchy people got you going? you seem skittish as a wet cat.

 

[GuyManDude]

Quantum Physics - the dreams stuff is made of

 

[HempKat]

seems like a lot of people here are absolutely full of shit because they hate religion for all its crimes against humanity yet can't bring personal stories of strife they experienced first hand to the table.

With that many dangerous religious people in the world, every one should have multiple personal story of horror to share.

numbers and facts don't lie

This is rather flawed logic which kind of surprises me coming from you, normally you seem to use a more sensible logic. What you are saying here is pretty much the equivalent of saying "pictures or it never happened."

Such a statement is just as easily wrong as it might be right. If someone can't produce sufficient proof to their claims it does not make their claims false, nor does it make them true. All it does is provide a direction to investigate in to try to establish better proof.

Here's some facts for you The Holy Crusades did happen, The Spanish Inquisition did happen, the Salem Witch Trials did happen. These are all facts and that's just Christianity. Pretty much all religions have histories involving their members inflicting all sorts of horrible things on those who don't conform. Just because these things didn't affect anyone alive today, directly, does not mean it's invalid to have negative feelings about those religions. Now that's not to say that one should hate this religion or that. While atrocities have occurred in the name of certain Gods or certain Religions in the ancient past they've all pretty much been responsible for a lot of good things and if one is being fair that should be factored in. Also one should factor in that religions are man made conceptual constructs and being man made they are just as fallible as the humans that created them.

 

[waveguide]

perception management

 

[Wö£fëñxXx]

Doc, technicality's bro.

Maybe fishing.

 

[waveguide]

Maybe we should shoot some skeet.

wave, the little witchy people got you going? you seem skittish as a wet cat.

i'd have to go with "project monarch" for a concise answer. the long answer is like hey america, i warned you a whole lot, now you can fucking deal with it.

 

[Weird]

This is rather flawed logic which kind of surprises me coming from you, normally you seem to use a more sensible logic. What you are saying here is pretty much the equivalent of saying "pictures or it never happened."

Such a statement is just as easily wrong as it might be right. If someone can't produce sufficient proof to their claims it does not make their claims false, nor does it make them true. All it does is provide a direction to investigate in to try to establish better proof.

Here's some facts for you The Holy Crusades did happen, The Spanish Inquisition did happen, the Salem Witch Trials did happen. These are all facts and that's just Christianity. Pretty much all religions have histories involving their members inflicting all sorts of horrible things on those who don't conform. Just because these things didn't affect anyone alive today, directly, does not mean it's invalid to have negative feelings about those religions. Now that's not to say that one should hate this religion or that. While atrocities have occurred in the name of certain Gods or certain Religions in the ancient past they've all pretty much been responsible for a lot of good things and if one is being fair that should be factored in. Also one should factor in that religions are man made conceptual constructs and being man made they are just as fallible as the humans that created them.

how are the crusades, the inquisition, the salem witch hunts relevant to the Christianity practiced today by over 1 billion people TODAY?

Funny, modern medicine is much different than it was 100's of years ago but I don't see people debasing it citing surgical techniques from the 1800's.

If today's religions are the catalyst to death today, where are the numbers? where is the data showing it?

What numbers are you looking at to draw your conclusions.

There is global data available that tells us what befalls mankind at what rates.

If exponentially more people are dying from malnutrition or other causes why are tax dollars being spent fighting conflicts that are based on "the muslim threat"

fwiw before the muslims it was the communist threat, which we made russia out to be. We ignored China thought? Why?

Could it be because russia was vying for assets in teh middle east?

Did we fight this war in afganastan before many years ago? Didn't Russia before that?

how many foreign civilians have died in conflicts Americans have participated in?

But what am I thinking

the war in the middle east cant be about resources like oil, poppies and land right?

its because people who believe in jesus get muslims all worked up and if neither of them existed the few pot heads on the internet who don't interact with society could actually start a whole new world based on their humanistic agendas and progressive ideas that they have proven to work in their own lives.