New grow process?/What to call it?

[Clackamas Coot]

Keep humidity low, keep the air moving, never spray your flowers and inoculate with Si during veg.

Slimm

I agree with you about the humidity and air movement completely.

And while I disagree with you 'slightly' about spraying flowers, you should certainly apply Si to the roots during the entire run of the grow - especially in the flower cycle where the density of the flowers and massive resin levels (hopefully) the need to give the plant every possible defense against PM is at its most important & crucial time.

At least where I live which is a test laboratory for every strain of anaerobic fungi you could ever find. Fighting PM in Western Oregon is a multi-million dollar a year industry between produce growers, orchardists, vineyards, grass seed growers, forests, ocean air, etc. You couldn't find a better environment to bring PM into your grow.

YMMV

CC

 

[RESINvention]

Guys, I'm on the verge of proving an innovative growing technique. However, I'm not sure what to call it. I'd like to demonstrate my findings but would definitely appreciate some input.

The principles that underlie my method are nothing new. However, the process and strategy are unique in their focus and intent. Although controversial, I deliberately mix synthetic fertilizers with pure organics. The goal has been to conveniently achieve the massive yields that synthetic compounds make easy. However, I also seek the usual benefits of organic growing. Those include improved flavor and aroma. An additional value is that there is no need to sterilize anything. Sterility is completely unnatural and makes as much sense to me as living in a hyperbaric chamber and then taking antibiotics to replace one's immune system.

Furthermore, stress is substantially reduced. General health is improved. Nute burning becomes a concern of the past. Multiple strains can be run simultaneously without complications. Feeding right until harvest (i.e. no flushing) becomes practical. Conventionally "wise" growers say this is impossible. "The microherd will be destroyed by the presence of synthetics!"

This is utter NONSENSE. I'm shocked that such misinformation is prevalent around here. Shortly, I'm going to prove my point with a grow show. Before I get there, though, I need to give my technique a proper name. The OMRI types hyperventilate and get red-faced whenever synthetics are mentioned. So, I'm sure that they'll object to a term like "semi-organic". "It's either purely organic or it's NOT!"

My attitude is "Yeah... whatEVER" because I look at all this scientifically vs. emotionally or politically. So, if folks are interested in learning what I'm up to, let's start with some terminology. Does "Semi-organic" or "Part organic" work? Or... is something like "Organic Amended" more accurate? Any constructive ideas will be highly appreciated.

Thanks,

Hey man, I love the creative ideas flowing man, keep them up! Hey but not to burst your bubble or nothing, and I completely admire your attempts to make life easier... but there is more to your experiment that I think you should know about before spending your time on this.. Let me explain..


The whole point of growing organics is to produce an abundance of microbiology within your soil, naturally. All the nutrients are readily available for the plant to uptake, when it needs it.

The whole point of growing with chemical fertilizer is to produce an abundant plant, with no focus on the soil life. All the nutrients are force fed to the plant, whether it wants it or not.

Mixing these two growing styles is completely contradictory to itself, and makes no sense.

You will essentially be feeding the microbiology, and then killing them, and trying to regrow them again, feed them, and kill them all over again..

How will this be more efficient? How is the supplement of organic/chem fert going to be cheaper and more labor friendly? It's just a bunch of unnecessary work, which will achieve sub-par results. You will do a ton of work and research, perhaps find the correct stable solution/feeding regime, and then ALL to find out they can grow larger/faster with just chem or just organic..


For you to deny that the microherd? will be destroyed by synthetics is ridiculous.. The addition of chemical fertilizers leave excess salts in your medium, which will throw your PH off, as well as begin to leech all the surrounding water through dessication, destroying homeostasis within the microbiology or microherd.

& then you say no flush till harvest?!? Come on man, what about the people who smoke your fertilizer infused pot that charcoals black.. that makes them cough even more? Blah.

and then finally you wrote this, which made me want to post up, lol!:

"Sterility is completely unnatural and makes as much sense to me as living in a hyperbaric chamber and then taking antibiotics to replace one's immune system."

Dude that's exactly what you are doing with chemical fertilizers and indoor growing!..


To be honest, I think you are better off going completely with synthetic Chemical Fertilizer, than trying to mix Synthetic Chem Fertilizer with Organic Fertilizer.. You'll just get better results..

Don't get me wrong, I'm not biased at all.. I absolutely love organics and it would be my preferred growing choice for sure.. I would then say organic is better than chem.. but that's not the point.. The point is, I think it'd be a waste of time.

Check this video out of some Guinness World Record vegetables.. perhaps it will give you an idea of where to go?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXGqJbFZzCo


You should grow your Soil, not your plants..

Please don't take any offense to this, I'm just being real and honest.

 

[pray4pistils]

You should grow your Soil, not your plants... Please don't take any offense to this, I'm just being real and honest.

Believe me I'm not offended by any means. However, you should understand that we're all waaaaaaaay beyond the point where we'd be put off course or distracted by stern but simple warnings like this. You should stick around for a while and take in the experiences we share while cultivating our favorite plant.

 

[pray4pistils]

pray4pistils

A couple of things that you might want to include for your experiment and I believe that I've altered them so that it won't interfere with your PH and such.

1. Liquid Silicon

I've been hearing more about silicon lately. What are the guidelines for applying this stuff? Do the bacteria consume it or is it already in ionic form and ready for the plants to absorb?

2. EM-1

EM-1 is a mother culture made up of several lactobacillus strains, including Rhodopseudomonas palustris also known as one of the PNSB (Purple Non-Sulphur Bacteria) and the 'photosynthesis bacteria' which is said to increase a plant's ability to increase the photosynthesis process.

Is there anything very special about this formula? I'd love to know how the various microbe concoctions out there can be implemented. For instance, I'm currently using Great White. However, I started with Piranha and Tarantula. Sometimes I venture out into the local pines and grab a bag of forest litter. So, yeah what unique value does this stuff provide?

I would not advise that you use this product in your teas/watering because it's very acidic - between 3.2 - 3.5 which doesn't matter much in a properly amended organic soil.

Au contraire mon frère. Most of the organic stuff we add to our teas drives the alkalinity skywards. Then, after the tea goes in the rez, the microherd goes wild and continues the trend. This is especially true during veg when the salts levels are much lower. Thus, an organic pH down is just what the doctor ordered much of the time. I try to use as little phosphoric acid as I can.

3. Alfalfa Tea

The usual way of making alfalfa tea probably wouldn't work in your experiment but you can certainly take advantage of the ingredients in alfalfa by applying as a foliar spray.

The usual way is to bubble it in nylon stocking, right? That's what I do... Am I missing something here? Also, is there a difference between the meal and the cubes (besides the form)? I use the cubes but wonder if a meal might dissolve more of the good stuff into the solution.

@everybody: I ran outta molasses yesterday. So, I'm heading over to Whole Foods for a bottle of blackstrap. But, that ain't the main prize, actually. I'm gonna grab me some coconut water which is sold as a health drink. The more I read about it the more I want to harness its cytokinin hormone powers. It's widely known that the stuff promotes lateral branching, tightens node spacing, and increases the number of bud sites. I suppose I'll add it to the 5gal of stinky fish fertz that I've had bubbling for the past 24 hours and do a rez change out at the same time.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

I've been hearing more about silicon lately. What are the guidelines for applying this stuff? Do the bacteria consume it or is it already in ionic form and ready for the plants to absorb?

Direct absorbtion.................

Is there anything very special about this formula? I'd love to know how the various microbe concoctions out there can be implemented. For instance, I'm currently using Great White. However, I started with Piranha and Tarantula. Sometimes I venture out into the local pines and grab a bag of forest litter. So, yeah what unique value does this stuff provide?

Completely different ends of the bacteria/fungi spectrum. EM-1 is made of anaerobic lactobacillus bacteria - like the lacto strains that create some beers, miso paste, cheese, sauerkraut - just about anything pickled was created by lacto bacteria. The subject of EM-1 and related applications is probably beyond the scope of this thread but it's definitely worth looking at and using, IMHO

The usual way is to bubble it in nylon stocking, right? That's what I do... Am I missing something here? Also, is there a difference between the meal and the cubes (besides the form)? I use the cubes but wonder if a meal might dissolve more of the good stuff into the solution.

I've used both and stuck with alfalfa meal because it's cheap, cheap - like $13.00 for 50 lbs. - organic and non-GMO - the real deal.

Some folks make alfalfa tea by taking the alfalfa meal and putting it into 5 gallon buckets and letting it ferment for 4-5 weeks. Your method is probably the better way given that you're using hydroponic growing processes as your feeding system.

Try adding about 1 tablespoon of raw kelp meal per gallon to your alfalfa tea when you begin to aerate. You'll be impressed within 12 hours of application I'm betting.

Best wishes.

CC

 

[pray4pistils]

Completely different ends of the bacteria/fungi spectrum. EM-1 is made of anaerobic lactobacillus bacteria

It's anerobic... So, how would we apply it given that the tea and reservoir are aggressively aerated? Is foliar feeding the only or best way to go?

Some folks make alfalfa tea by taking the alfalfa meal and putting it into 5 gallon buckets and letting it ferment for 4-5 weeks.

That also sounds anaerobic. Thus, I have the same question about it.

Try adding about 1 tablespoon of raw kelp meal per gallon to your alfalfa tea when you begin to aerate. You'll be impressed within 12 hours of application I'm betting.

Is there any reason to not brew all this stuff together? Usually, I pre-digest the fish fertz along with humic/fulvic acid for 12 hours. Then, I add the kelp/EWC/guano and let that rip for another 12 hours. Then, it gets filtered and added back to the rez. At that point I spike it all with a jolt of molasses. Do you feel that this is an optimal procedure? Or, should I split up some of these ingredients and time their additions differently?

 

[Balazar]

There are two brands of liquid silicon that I know of and I have used them both. Botanicare silica blast is pretty pricey for how much you get. Growth Technology makes liquid silica too, marketing it as a ph adjuster and folier feed.

This stuff does wonders for the thickness and strength of your stems/stalks. It also gives you nice green shiny leafs.

When I was using it with House & Garden I did notice that if I put too much of this stuff in the res it would react with H&G chems forming solids in the res that float to the top.

Anyone know of a cheaper liquid silica that is a quality product?

 

[Balazar]

There are two brands of liquid silicon that I know of and I have used them both. Botanicare silica blast is pretty pricey for how much you get. Growth Technology makes liquid silica too, marketing it as a ph adjuster and folier feed.

This stuff does wonders for the thickness and strength of your stems/stalks. It also gives you nice green shiny leafs.

When I was using it with House & Garden I did notice that if I put too much of this stuff in the res it would react with H&G chems forming solids in the res that float to the top.

Anyone know of a cheaper liquid silica that is a quality product?

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Dyna-Gro Pro-TeKt

Dyna-Gro Pro-TeKt

Balazar

Dyna-Gro Pro-TeKt is an outstanding product at a good price - about $30.00 per gallon and the rate of usage is 1/4-1/2 tsp. per gallon.

Pro-TeKt contains 3% Soluble Potash and 7.x% silicon derived from potassium silicate.

Compare the levels of potash and silicon with the levels of Botanicare Silica Blast and I think you'll be very impressed with Pro-TeKt - especially the pricing.

HTH

CC

 

[Slimm]

Balazar

Dyna-Gro Pro-TeKt is an outstanding product at a good price - about $30.00 per gallon and the rate of usage is 1/4-1/2 tsp. per gallon.

Pro-TeKt contains 3% Soluble Potash and 7.x% silicon derived from potassium silicate.

Compare the levels of potash and silicon with the levels of Botanicare Silica Blast and I think you'll be very impressed with Pro-TeKt - especially the pricing.

HTH

CC

+1

This is what I use and the results are great!

 

[Clackamas Coot]

According to the Botanicare Silica Blast label, this product is 0.5% Soluble Potash (K20) and 2% silicon derived from potassium silicate and sodium silicate.

Dyna-Grow Pro-Tekt is 3% Soluble Potash (K2O) and 7.5% silicon derived from potassium silicate.

Labels can be troubling things for grow store products and usually are.

HTH

CC

 

[Terramoto]

One stupid question, what happens if you give organic nutes to an hydroponic system?

 

[pray4pistils]

One stupid question, what happens if you give organic nutes to an hydroponic system?

The plants grow and live happily ever after. That is, of course, if you do it correctly. The same possible success or failure exists with synthetic nutes, too. The same topics that we're discussing here generally apply to your pure organic set up (except that the amount of organic nutes that you use must be greater).

If you list the foods that you plan to add, we can comment on them and let you know if they make sense. For example, you'll need a balance between your NPK and trace minerals. That's easy when you go with bottled formulas. But, how is it done with raw ingredients? Clackamas Coot and CT Guy have the most experience with this. So, I'd pay special attention to their advice. Also, what sort of hydro is this? Your technique must change if you're running a dripper system vs. ebb & flow vs hempy bucket, etc.

Cheers,

 

[Terramoto]

i think it is a dripping system something like the video "I grow chronic" but with brewed nutes, i read somewhere it produces biota that can block the feeding tubes and i didnt find any other type of problems but few info.
well i want to use all that i have available to me here so, worm castings, seaweed, bat guano and molasses. The only brand nutes i have available are from composana:
http://www.international.compo.com/en/consumer/blumenpflege/compo.html
the first 7 bottles, but i dont think they are natural nutes.

 

[Terramoto]

I guess my understanding of teas was wrong, i thought the teas were like the nutes bottles that everyone buys in the stores like biobizz, etc... I found out now that he only works as a supplement for the plant to feed then usual.

 

[pray4pistils]

I guess my understanding of teas was wrong, i thought the teas were like the nutes bottles that everyone buys in the stores like biobizz, etc... I found out now that he only works as a supplement for the plant to feed then usual.

Teas can certainly be used as regular nutes. Many of us use them as supplements to our base formula but you don't have to. Call your brew "tea" or "extract" or whatever you want. The bottom line is that in a pure organic grow you are feeding the microbes -not the plant. These microbes process the materials which are only then directly absorbed by the plant.

In my grow technique I use FloraNova (which is sort of in between typical "chemical" fertz and raw organic foods) to directly feed the plants and add the organics to feed the microbes. I use the microbes to keep my water clean (instead of sterilizing) and also to deliver the extra stuff that no synthetic nutrient cocktail is known to provide. The end result is that I can run a lower salts concentration but with a full dose of nutrients. Since there is no waiting time for processing, the plants don't ever stress for lack of food. Thus the plants can feast all day but never overeat and burn.

Your job may be somewhat more challenging with full organics because of the time delay and because you give the "control" to the invisible creatures in the water. Do it right, though, and these little guys will do a much better job than a person can. Feed the right foods and create a hospitable environment and the microherd is your best friend. Get it wrong and pathogens will destroy your garden.

P.S. I'm inclined to believe that a drip system isn't your best bet with organics because of the potential for clogging.

 

[Rednick]

P.S. I'm inclined to believe that a drip system isn't your best bet with organics because of the potential for clogging.

But if you filter it like you do your teas, then it would enter the system particle free.
So at that point the 'clogging' potential should be limited to the formation of sizable colonies once in system. Which may be mitigated by the use of an inline filter of proper diameter. Or some microherd catch, like the Bio-Balls in a saltwater aquarium.

B/c what I like about the drip system and organics, would be the microherd getting a continual replenishment of moisture, without drowning.
Now if you get the evaporative loss of the medium (not plant) down, then with little flushing, you could ensure that the salt-build up was never at a toxic level (using salts) for your microherd?

 

[Clackamas Coot]

pray4pistils

I think that where part of the confusion comes in begins at the differences between what folks like CT Guy and others mean by the term 'compost tea' and what the general public has as a concept.

In the sense that you, for example, are taking the very same kind of ingredients that you would find in say Earth Juice This or Earth Juice That (sans the chemical fertilizers if I'm understanding your experiment correctly) to make your own 'nutrient tea' as a way to provide the plant's nutritional needs and then judiciously adding chemical salts as an adjunct to maximize your original nutrient preparation.

In the kind of tea that one would make using a tea brewer, given the small amount of actual compost/EWC/Humus that you're using, there isn't much of a nutrient profile at all. That's not the goal.

In the sense that CT Guy and others using the term 'compost teas' (myself included) it generally refers to a tea brewed until specific microbe-levels are achieved as a means to inoculate the soil to increase (hopefully) higher levels of the soil's microbial activity.

Perhaps using the term 'compost tea' isn't the best choice all the way around. The acronym ACT (Aerated Compost Tea) would identify the type of tea that 'compost tea dudes' are usually talking about.

HTH

CC

 

[Rednick]

I agree coot.

But the heart of the issue is getting this microbial activity, in a hydroponic system and avoiding toxic salt levels to our little friends.

Don't worry, once I move to the boons, I will be soil organic everything (fruits, veggies, herbs, HERB)...

But living on the Front Range most people are using spare rooms or basements, or garages. Limited space, indoors soil gets messy, and plenty of access to water inside. Which therefore makes Hydroponics the method of choice.
Now if we could just get people to stop putting all their NPK down the drain.

I know BigTokes has stated that Hydroton doesn't have enough space for BB to colonize, so that is why he uses Lava Rock. But that is RWDC, and if we have a large bucket of Hydroton, filled, then I would think that there is plenty of space for the herd to develop...But if that fails, what is the likelihood of running a mircroherd breeding ground, inline with the nutrient delivery system?

It seems like when the lable says 'innoculate every week or every water change'. That they are telling you that the herd has died and needs to be repopulated. When, in fact, the herd should be reproducing until they hit a critical mass, if given the right inputs. Granted if you make a water change, and don't save some of that water, they you will lose all (most) of your microbes. That is why in aquariums you add back at least 25% every time you do a water change.

It seems like some of these products at the store, to help us boost our microbial activity, are also marketed and instructed with 'planned obsolesence' in mind.

 

[asstastic]

Teas can certainly be used as regular nutes. Many of us use them as supplements to our base formula but you don't have to. Call your brew "tea" or "extract" or whatever you want. The bottom line is that in a pure organic grow you are feeding the microbes -not the plant. These microbes process the materials which are only then directly absorbed by the plant.

In my grow technique I use FloraNova (which is sort of in between typical "chemical" fertz and raw organic foods) to directly feed the plants and add the organics to feed the microbes. I use the microbes to keep my water clean (instead of sterilizing) and also to deliver the extra stuff that no synthetic nutrient cocktail is known to provide. The end result is that I can run a lower salts concentration but with a full dose of nutrients. Since there is no waiting time for processing, the plants don't ever stress for lack of food. Thus the plants can feast all day but never overeat and burn.

Your job may be somewhat more challenging with full organics because of the time delay and because you give the "control" to the invisible creatures in the water. Do it right, though, and these little guys will do a much better job than a person can. Feed the right foods and create a hospitable environment and the microherd is your best friend. Get it wrong and pathogens will destroy your garden.

P.S. I'm inclined to believe that a drip system isn't your best bet with organics because of the potential for clogging.

you made a point there which i liked by mixing organics and chems you can have a lower salt content because the ec of chems alone is less cause you also have the ec from the organic
i like this cuz some strains ive delt with will burn with a high ec from chems but they still need and want more nutes and thats why i started using organic and chem cuz i can give them chems at half strenth and pump the organic nutes up ther which gives me a higher end ec than my plants could handle if they were on chems alone avoiding burn from salt content all together