New grow process?/What to call it?

[Clackamas Coot]

pray4pistils

On this or another thread you mentioned that you're using coir and I have a question and I apologize for asking on your specific thread but I was not able to find your post about using coir and perlite so I apologize for mucking up this thread.

Here's my question - I have available to me an organic coir product direct from the importer which is sourced out of the Philippines and not Sri Lanka.

Let's agree that I've done my homework and this product meets all of the caveats about using coir, i.e. salt issues, etc. This product is the 'short length' product.

So my concept was to use 2x coir and 1x pumice vs. perlite (the CeC deal) as a base. To that I would use 3x of this mix to 1x part organic mix that consists of equal parts of organic compost, Alaska humus and my homegrown EWC. To that I would add a mineral mix (5 products) as well as a seed meal mix which includes fish meal and organic fish bone meal, neem seed meal and shrimp/crustacean meal (chitin content).

The question I have is relative to 'liming' this mix. I'm not a big fan of most liming agents, per se. By using coir vs. peat moss have I removed most of the PH issues reducing the liming agent necessity?

For liming I use equal parts of organic oyster shell powder, gypsum (sulphur content) and dolomite lime - do you see anything in my program that would need changes by using a straight coir base vs. using a coir and peat moss mix as I've done in the past?

Thanks for this thread and your response.

CC

 

[Rednick]

Let us just say, I am now peering through the looking glass.

Thanks Coot.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Let us just say, I am now peering through the looking glass.

Thanks Coot.

Rednick

Thank you for the kind words! I have a lot of questions and few answers for the most part. I attribute that to old age, general stupidity and abusing my 'medical marijuana status' as it were.

Life's short - grab the rewards as they move past you. It's over in the blink of an eye.

I speak from personal experience.

Peace.............

CC

EDIT: I would add this - when the answers about 'real life' are larger than the question it's probably time to get centered and directed. That's been my experience anyway.

 

[asstastic]

hey clack of topic but important please read my oregon tax act thread

pray4pistls i like how you work your geting good results and ide like to say ive always used chems and organics the only diff i say was the lable and were it was derived but the end product(nute) is the same npk ect.
if you claimed chem only but used an organic nute the organic nazis would not fus they only want to belittle chems

 

[Clackamas Coot]

if you claimed chem only but used an organic nute the organic nazis would not fus they only want to belittle chems

asstastic

Just a note - I was invited to this thread by the thread parent (or OP if that is a better term) and then CT Guy came along to offer a few comments that I believe that the OP took to heart and offered some viable comments to CT Guy's post. I also believe that both of us have been respective and tried to be helpful in answering specific questions/queries.

Having said that, you probably won't find a person who is more 'organic oriented' than me. I am not a 'Nazi' by any stretch of the imagination.

I believe that folks should grow out their medicine that best suits their respective situations. I use organic methods because I believe that it's the easiest and most cost-effective method of growing. I'm in the minority. My opinions about the 'grow store' products is heresy - but I can back up my positions with science and not opinion.

Again - people like CT Guy, myself, et al. don't hold the opinion that 'our way' is the 'only way' - what I would proffer is that 'my way' appears to be far simpler than the processes and equipment necessary for other growing methods.

Bottom line is that I'm a really, really cheap ass-h*le. LOL

Peace

CC

 

[hisser]

Organic++

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Wow, that's very encouraging. Tell us how to grow 500lb colas, please! PLEASE!

pray4pistils

CT Guy is right! The pumpkin growers are even nuttier than cannabis growers as hard as that is to believe.

I haven't checked in a couple of years but the last time that I did the world record for a pumpkin was over 1,500 lbs.

Then in that group you get into the argument(s) about whether or not is was the compost tea, genetics, beneficial fungi, etc. which gave them the yields that they achieved.

Sound familiar?

LOL

CC

 

[asstastic]

asstastic

Just a note - I was invited to this thread by the thread parent (or OP if that is a better term) and then CT Guy came along to offer a few comments that I believe that the OP took to heart and offered some viable comments to CT Guy's post. I also believe that both of us have been respective and tried to be helpful in answering specific questions/queries.

Having said that, you probably won't find a person who is more 'organic oriented' than me. I am not a 'Nazi' by any stretch of the imagination.

I believe that folks should grow out their medicine that best suits their respective situations. I use organic methods because I believe that it's the easiest and most cost-effective method of growing. I'm in the minority. My opinions about the 'grow store' products is heresy - but I can back up my positions with science and not opinion.

Again - people like CT Guy, myself, et al. don't hold the opinion that 'our way' is the 'only way' - what I would proffer is that 'my way' appears to be far simpler than the processes and equipment necessary for other growing methods.

Bottom line is that I'm a really, really cheap ass-h*le. LOL

Peace

CC

oh ive been here a time or two i know you guys here as the good organic guys my only point is the nazis claim if you grow organic and add a chem your nolonger organic but if you grow chem and add a organi nute your still chem get it
they are not trying to seperat the two there just trying to make there shit sound as if there the only one whos really organic
i more or less classify it as botteled or home made ill mix any two nutes nomatter the classifacation and never even think to seperate there nutes for diff things the plant needs bottem line
hope that makes since

 

[asstastic]

i thought of a name for your new way
semisynthetic
or semisynthetic organic

 

[generalgrievous]

micro- herds vs. container grows.

micro- herds vs. container grows.

read an article by 'the rev' yesterday... was gonna copy a piece word for word but i'm baked.... n i can't find it...

he said organics will work well with synthetics in a res or dwc bucket, but not in a container with soil or a soilless medium... i find this somewhat annoying, i guess cuz i grow soilless in a container...

he claims the drying out of the medium concentrates salts and kills the micro-herd. sounds reasonable but how much does the medium dry...?

any thoughts on this...?

i hand water in coco... typically i feed twice a day...not always. even when i don't my root zone does not go completely dry. gonna make an effort over the next couple days to see where my container drys out.

this girls coming into her last week... she was fed with the PBP hydrogarden formula (mostly organic i've read) and tea on weekends,

my teas were as basic as could be and i'm pleased with the results. my tea recipes have stacked up the last couple weeks of research and thanks to pistils i will building my tea in stages and incorporate it into my nute solution.

pistils.... do you use a microscope to check in in the micro-dude herd...? i honestly think it's the only way to know if they're happy and reproducing or not.

i started shopping for one monday night.... once that shit starts nothing can stop me....

 

[ScrubNinja]

Great thread P4P. The grow before last I did something similar. I used straight coco and hand watered and originally started out strictly hydro nutes (dutch master gold) but switched to a hybrid method in early flower.

What I would generally do was mix my flower nutes about 2/3rd strength/EC, then add molasses, liquid kelp, liquid P guano, and finally some Bio-bugs, and aerate that for up to 24hrs but usually less. I was still getting my head around it at the time and stopped PHing near the end(!!), with crazy high PH often! But I got her over the line and it was a great harvest considering such mistakes.



For my current grow I've gone back to just hydro nutes with some organic additives occasionally. For the most part, I just use liquid kelp as ph up, and Herbal Extract (kind of related to EM) as ph down. Ah well, consider me subscribed.

 

[pray4pistils]

pray4pistils

The question I have is relative to 'liming' this mix. I'm not a big fan of most liming agents, per se. By using coir vs. peat moss have I removed most of the PH issues reducing the liming agent necessity?

For liming I use equal parts of organic oyster shell powder, gypsum (sulphur content) and dolomite lime - do you see anything in my program that would need changes by using a straight coir base vs. using a coir and peat moss mix as I've done in the past?

Thanks for returning to us, Coot. Coco coir is definitely different in properties than the peat that it resembles. The acidity problem isn't really very significant and liming is isn't even anything that I've bothered with before. The cation exchange is quite a different matter, though. At first coco likes to hold some minerals but as it biodegrades it then releases them. Acidity does rise during this break down (but nothing like peat). Feeding formulation should adapt for this. (I recall that the stuff hoards Ca and also P? Or is it K? The info is definitely out there.)

P.S. I adore coco coir. It's almost as easy as hydroton (once that's set up) but takes much less technology to use.

 

[pray4pistils]

if you claimed chem only but used an organic nute the organic nazis would not fus they only want to belittle chems

They remind me of bible thumping evangelicals in their self-righteousness and absolutist views about how the world works. The shame of it all is that some of them are fantastically smart and intelligent about what they do. I've learned tons from their threads. Meanwhile every time I open my mouth in their discussions it's like farting in an elevator. (sigh)

he said organics will work well with synthetics in a res or dwc bucket, but not in a container with soil or a soilless medium... i find this somewhat annoying, i guess cuz i grow soilless in a container...

Well, I suppose that the specific medium matters a lot. I sure had a good time in hempy buckets filled with soilless mix (perlite, vermiculite, coco, & worm castings). It really makes me wonder how many detractors just pass on rumors they heard vs relay first-hand experience (or verified scientific research).

he claims the drying out of the medium concentrates salts and kills the micro-herd. sounds reasonable but how much does the medium dry...?

Concentrated salts will definitely harm the micro-herd. So... the solution is to keep the medium wet. This doesn't work with soil but is perfectly sensible in pure coco and coco mixed with other stuff (like perlite, vermiculite, etc).

i hand water in coco... typically i feed twice a day...not always. even when i don't my root zone does not go completely dry. gonna make an effort over the next couple days to see where my container drys out.

Definitely don't let that stuff dry out! You won't overwater in coco if you're feeding twice a day (that was my hempy bucket watering schedule, too). Heck, my plants are now rooted in coco and then dropped into hydroton that's submerged 6x a day for 15 minute intervals! Keep it moist, man.

this girls coming into her last week... she was fed with the PBP hydrogarden formula (mostly organic i've read) and tea on weekends,

pistils.... do you use a microscope to check in in the micro-dude herd...? i honestly think it's the only way to know if they're happy and reproducing or not.

Oh, I've looked at my stuff with a 400x microscope and saw different-looking... stuff... moving around doing... stuff... ... ... You see, I have a reputation around here for being knowledgeable, but I'm not a botanist, chemist, or micro-biologist. I apply generally scientific methods to what I do, but I'm NOT a scientist. So, I've got lots to learn from those with more experience as well as formal training.

With that said, though, it's pretty easy to know when the herd is happy and reproducing. When you add 250ppm of fish fertz and 12 hours later it's either 150ppm or 500ppm... quite clearly it's due to microbial metabolism. The presence of thick foam and (usually) rising pH also demonstrate beneficial metabolic activity (the nasties typically coincide with big drops in pH and more of a film on the water vs. foam). You can also use your sense of smell. It's a very low-tech method but sulfurous funk = anerobic conditions. An earthy scent = "good things happening". Raw fish stink = "not processed yet" and the disappearance of said stink = "ready for the next step". An expert with a microscope could take this much farther, but it's not necessary for the layman to get good results.

i started shopping for one monday night.... once that shit starts nothing can stop me....

Dude, drop science around here like it's hot! Let's "smart" this thread up and put the Organics-Only Reich in their place. :yay:

 

[pray4pistils]

Great thread P4P. The grow before last I did something similar. I used straight coco and hand watered and originally started out strictly hydro nutes (dutch master gold) but switched to a hybrid method in early flower.

What I would generally do was mix my flower nutes about 2/3rd strength/EC, then add molasses, liquid kelp, liquid P guano, and finally some Bio-bugs, and aerate that for up to 24hrs but usually less. I was still getting my head around it at the time and stopped PHing near the end(!!), with crazy high PH often! But I got her over the line and it was a great harvest considering such mistakes.
For my current grow I've gone back to just hydro nutes with some organic additives occasionally. For the most part, I just use liquid kelp as ph up, and Herbal Extract (kind of related to EM) as ph down. Ah well, consider me subscribed.

Wow, man. Your experience and processes are nearly identical to mine. Would you please elaborate on the high pH that you saw at the end? Do you believe that the plants suffered? I keep my pH within 5.5 - 6.2 but they tend to stay in the 5.9 - 6.1 most of the time. So far i haven't seen much of a difference regardless. I'm not sure if that's because I'm just not sharp enough to notice or if the organic portion make the whole pH thing less critical (as it clearly does in a fully organic soil grow).

Also, what changes or adjustments have you made as you've varied the proportions of synthetics vs. organics? Have you seen differences in growth, health, or maintenance? I'm wondering if the whole system will work differently in the summer heat that'll be upon us soonish.

 

[pray4pistils]

pray4pistils

CT Guy is right! The pumpkin growers are even nuttier than cannabis growers as hard as that is to believe... Then in that group you get into the argument(s) about whether or not is was the compost tea, genetics, beneficial fungi, etc. which gave them the yields that they achieved... Sound familiar?

Heck yeah, it sounds familiar. But, what's really obvious is that the combination of organics and synthetics is a winner. If it can grow a 1,500lb pumpkin... why are these organics-only guys claiming that the combination can't work together? Vonforme calls synthetics "poison" to plants. Riiiiight... Microbeman is so offended at my audacity (to propose that the soil/food web can adapt to the presence of synthetics) that he won't even respond to my evidence. How can these people ignore 1,500lb pumpkins or simply dismiss the technique that produced them???

 

[CT Guy]

Heck yeah, it sounds familiar. But, what's really obvious is that the combination of organics and synthetics is a winner. If it can grow a 1,500lb pumpkin... why are these organics-only guys claiming that the combination can't work together? Vonforme calls synthetics "poison" to plants. Riiiiight... Microbeman is so offended at my audacity (to propose that the soil/food web can adapt to the presence of synthetics) that he won't even respond to my evidence. How can these people ignore 1,500lb pumpkins or simply dismiss the technique that produced them???

This week is kicking my ass, wish I had more time to goof around on the site, but a couple more points to interject.

I think you can grow any way you choose, that's your perogative. However, I do agree with the definition that it's a chem grow if you are using any chemicals. We have organic standards in the Ag. industry for a reason (even if they're not perfect, they serve a purpose).

Pumpkin world record is now 1,725 lbs.! Pretty amazing since they start from seed and get all that growth in such a short time!

Keep in mind too that they're not smoking or eating their final product. I think this is an important point, as there are studies out there that show nutrition levels and brix levels being higher in organic plants. There aren't any studies that I've seen showing health impacts of smoking chem-grown weed, but I'd be curious.

If you are going to use chemicals, I think this is the way to do it. In a contained space with less pollutants to the outside environment.

I have been feeling for a while that there could be increased growth using a small amount of synthetics, which is what your results appear to be reflecting. Best way to know for sure would be to have a control group for some side-by-side comparison.

Good to see people experimenting!

Cheers,
CT

PS: If you need a microscope, coming from someone who did a lot of research and then took the advice of those smarter than me, this is the best one on the market if you're on a budget (don't get a crappy ebay one, you'll regret it).

http://simplici-tea.com/microscope.htm
http://simplici-tea.com/microscopedvd.htm

or available here:
www.microbeorganics.com

 

[CT Guy]

If you want to see what the microscope video looks like, check out www.gardeningwithmicrobes.com or microbeorganics.com

 

[grapeman]

pray4pistils - I am perplexed as to why you would think mixing organics with synthetics is new in any way shape or form. thousands of farmers do this year in and year out and have been doing so since the 1950's or so. I don't think you have "stumbled" onto anything new or original, except for the fact that your thread has brought together proponents of both methods, in a single thread, discussing how you would perform this hybrid type of farming on this crop in particular. Farmers of other crops have been doing this for years. I can give examples galore.

Otherwise, I am enjoying the thread.

 

[supermanlives]

chems for veg and organics for flower

 

[Rainman]

Dont listen to this clown named Grapeman! He does not grow anything and is a poser trolling for friends. I told you I was not gonna let you hang out and lie to people anymore Grapeman. Time to go away. Faker! How are you giving advice on something you know nothing about? Go away clown.