The College I used to study Horticulture made a big deal about TMV, they made it seem like AIDS back in the 80s...
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need advice about my recieved chemdog d cut with TMV symptons
- Thread starter ojd
- Start date
N
NOYB
I have no doubt some studies are being done but am sure they had to jump through hoops. With the current state of canna legality I think you'd find a closed door trying to get something done but do believe there is stuff going on behind the scenes if you know the 'right' people.
H
heavy dank nugg
quote=TomHill;2667158]Hello folks,
Apparently out of about 1200 viruses able to infect plants, only 5 infect cannabis regularly - Tobacco mosaic virus (TMV) is not one of them. Paulsen reported TMV causing symptomless infections in cannabis (Hemp Diseases and Pests).
i thought i tried to say this and was told i was wrong... mabey you will believe tom.
Apparently out of about 1200 viruses able to infect plants, only 5 infect cannabis regularly - Tobacco mosaic virus (TMV) is not one of them. Paulsen reported TMV causing symptomless infections in cannabis (Hemp Diseases and Pests).
i thought i tried to say this and was told i was wrong... mabey you will believe tom.
J
JeffSpicoli
Ok here are some pics of a Tahoe og, and Valley og. that show the leaf twist/curl and off-coloring. I also have a HA og, and Larry og that typically show signs of it, but i selected the nices looking clones last batch for new moms, and now i cant find any signs of it on the HA or Larry.. I would took shots of them otherwise
Tahoe
Valley
Tahoe
Valley
H
heavy dank nugg
nice shots of some fine marijuana...now it looks like your ph is off a bit causing your roots to not absorb calcium or iron...that is the reason for the discolored and mutating leaves...also the fact they are clones...clones often exibit traits that were not present in the mother plant.mutations if you will...i still do not see tmv. i see what is commonly mistaken for tmv...
G
Greyskull
alls i know is i have seen it - the mosiac-like trait whatever it is - move from one plant to another plant without a recirculation of nutes... my grape romulan wasnt even on the table the ogs and chem d were on it was off to the side and she 'caught' whatever it is we don't know what we are looking at. maybe i was really high when i first noticed it (probably was I dont remember). when i saw that it had "moved" to a pre 98 bubba i was really high. i will be the first to admit I grow some good buds, but my shit is not that psychedelic. IT IS TRANSMITTABLE as far as i can see. I am no pro though.
maybe its the environment encouraging/discouraging how much the 'trait' is shown, as crazy has suggested? Some leaves have smooth curls with even blotching on the inside half of the curl, and some are just speckeled and taking the appearance of light bleaching like symtons. maybe environment is a factor in display...
sub's seen it on his GDP - he doesn't recirc nutes, doesn't aeroclone.
will run out and take a few snaps of the chem D for shits and giggles. maybe its not TMV, but i am not totally sold on the fact its a PH or nute issue as cuts i have rooted from a very dependable source were recieved with 'the trait' on a few of the cuts' fan leaves, and this dude grows the shit out of his plants. its some sort of mosiac THAT SO FAR SEEMS TO BE MANAGABLE if you keep the girls in primo care - a rouge curly isnt the end of the world. Tobabcco - maybe, maybe not. Hem - maybe, maybe not. Maybe we are really looking at something fresh and new... but we are looking at something.
hdn: i'll put it to bed. do be assured I ain't jealous haha
maybe its the environment encouraging/discouraging how much the 'trait' is shown, as crazy has suggested? Some leaves have smooth curls with even blotching on the inside half of the curl, and some are just speckeled and taking the appearance of light bleaching like symtons. maybe environment is a factor in display...
sub's seen it on his GDP - he doesn't recirc nutes, doesn't aeroclone.
will run out and take a few snaps of the chem D for shits and giggles. maybe its not TMV, but i am not totally sold on the fact its a PH or nute issue as cuts i have rooted from a very dependable source were recieved with 'the trait' on a few of the cuts' fan leaves, and this dude grows the shit out of his plants. its some sort of mosiac THAT SO FAR SEEMS TO BE MANAGABLE if you keep the girls in primo care - a rouge curly isnt the end of the world. Tobabcco - maybe, maybe not. Hem - maybe, maybe not. Maybe we are really looking at something fresh and new... but we are looking at something.
hdn: i'll put it to bed. do be assured I ain't jealous haha
Very interesting updates since yesterday. Gonna go take a shot of my D now.
And on the Calmag thing. I will say that my cut VASTLY improved after an app of Calmag. I am going to do the same with this cut (from my original) and see if we get any difference.
And on the Calmag thing. I will say that my cut VASTLY improved after an app of Calmag. I am going to do the same with this cut (from my original) and see if we get any difference.
Chem D
Were they in the same medium?
I'd like to see if this problem spreads from like hydro to soil or vice versa, it really seems like a deficiency rather than a virus..specially if it's proven that TMV doesn't really affect MJ...
N
NOYB
It really does appear to be the case especially knowing a bit about Sub and his Dago friends experience and skills regarding canna and specifically about this issue. I also have a lot of respect for Tom Hill...a real canna scientist IMO. If he says not TMV then I'm inclined to believe him even though I have seen people say emphatically that TMV can and does infect canna.
I was thinking last night about an experiment. Do something like take a known clean cut of a strain not yet know to be 'infected' that someone has experience with, take leaves/petioles from a know infected cut, crush up the leaves/petioles and rinse with a bit of distilled water keeping the whole process as sterile as possible, inject a small amount of the solution into the known good/clean cut and wait to see what happens. Maybe spraying the plant would work...especially if using something like Penetrator. Just an idea guys.
I'm trying to obtain some leaf samples of a badly 'infected' cut and show to a friend who for sure knows his shit...lol.
U
ureapwhatusow
nice to see pictures
In my experience i can take perfectly healthy plants of various strains including
big blue from BCSC circa 1999 and get them to show the same leaf defects, those leaf issues are due to container size ph or nutrients or a combination thereof
I will find pictures later that show early growth that is warped and new growth that is healthy after i transplanted and made proper ph and nute adjustments
In my experience i can take perfectly healthy plants of various strains including
big blue from BCSC circa 1999 and get them to show the same leaf defects, those leaf issues are due to container size ph or nutrients or a combination thereof
I will find pictures later that show early growth that is warped and new growth that is healthy after i transplanted and made proper ph and nute adjustments
H
heavy dank nugg
thats cause it is NOT TMV....
funny how all the lazy dirty growers try to make excuses for their plant problems...
they wanna blame the genetics or the breeders... then the breeders and canna scientists tell them they are wrong. and they still continue their arrogant tyraid...because they are to arrogant and pridefull to accept they are lazy and dirty.........
Now my take on it is....we all start out a bit lazy... we want to do the very least amount of work we can. its only human..Then we run into problems...Thats when most realize hey... this is my own fault....making mistakes is a part of this game.... most every problem we encounter as growers are self inflicted.The people who want to improve..accept their failures learn and correct. the others keep fucking up.and keep making excuses..
So far 3 or 4 people myself included have tried to tell you excatly what is wrong......the good ones will hear the message.
i assume the others will keep crying TMV or some other ridiculous disease
funny how all the lazy dirty growers try to make excuses for their plant problems...
they wanna blame the genetics or the breeders... then the breeders and canna scientists tell them they are wrong. and they still continue their arrogant tyraid...because they are to arrogant and pridefull to accept they are lazy and dirty.........
Now my take on it is....we all start out a bit lazy... we want to do the very least amount of work we can. its only human..Then we run into problems...Thats when most realize hey... this is my own fault....making mistakes is a part of this game.... most every problem we encounter as growers are self inflicted.The people who want to improve..accept their failures learn and correct. the others keep fucking up.and keep making excuses..
So far 3 or 4 people myself included have tried to tell you excatly what is wrong......the good ones will hear the message.
i assume the others will keep crying TMV or some other ridiculous disease
H
heavy dank nugg
wow that is ugly.. thank goodness this dose not affect marijuana...
eeeesh, all this over some plant issues? NONE of us are perfect. I see this shit all time in my garden, even to the point of all the fan leaves being dried n fired. I just assumed since I am in dirt and running so many different strains that I simply didnt notice that one plant may be more sensitive to.............
something.
And I start troubleshooting. A few times cal-mag did the trick. Few times it didnt. Heel, last run it didnt show up on my 4fters in 1gals but it did on my 6in 'lings in plenty o soil. Ima have to lean towards Ureap and HDN for now. At least in MY garden.
good vibes
something.
And I start troubleshooting. A few times cal-mag did the trick. Few times it didnt. Heel, last run it didnt show up on my 4fters in 1gals but it did on my 6in 'lings in plenty o soil. Ima have to lean towards Ureap and HDN for now. At least in MY garden.
good vibes
J
JeffSpicoli
dude heavy dank nug, youre a real tool to be calling all of us lazy and dirty.. Seriously bro? wtf is up with that? I have a friend who has been growing for over 15 years, he is seriously bill nye the science guy of growing, he is RIDICULOUSLY ANAL about his grow.. I have never seen a more clean/ professional setup as his.. He writes notes on clipboards for EVERY feeds, EVERY anything. He has it all on lockdown.. He has been growing a "valley og" since about 2004-05.. This guy knows his shit about growing, and has an extremely clean/sterile enviroment... His Valley og has ALWAYS shown the occasional leaf twist/curl / discoloring... Thats 5 years of this showing up, no matter how perfectly dialed in his plants look, it shows this trait... To say its PH/Nutrient related... I just plain disagree... Look, i have seen 50 clones from the same mother plant, when all vegged out under the EXACT same conditions... Clones that had more 'tmv effected' leaves when they were little clones, have WAYYYYY more 'tmv' leaves when they are vegged out... Straight up, if you take a clone that has TMV already showing, its gonna flare up A LOT more, than if you were to select a clone that doesnt have any leaftwist/curl yet.
I honestly dont think its a PH/nutrient issue.. I DO think that having youre PH off does make it show up more... But why is it when im growing 15+strains, all in the EXACT same EVERYTHING, how come only the "infected" cuts show it... If this was a PH/nutrient issue, i would think more of my strains would be showing this?
Also, saw subrobs GDP last night, his had 2 leafs that showed this, HOWEVER... he had WHITE splotches/discoloring... As opposed to the yellow that i have always seen.
Whatever it is, i do believe its a mosaic virus, maybe not tobacco... But its obviously something
I honestly dont think its a PH/nutrient issue.. I DO think that having youre PH off does make it show up more... But why is it when im growing 15+strains, all in the EXACT same EVERYTHING, how come only the "infected" cuts show it... If this was a PH/nutrient issue, i would think more of my strains would be showing this?
Also, saw subrobs GDP last night, his had 2 leafs that showed this, HOWEVER... he had WHITE splotches/discoloring... As opposed to the yellow that i have always seen.
Whatever it is, i do believe its a mosaic virus, maybe not tobacco... But its obviously something
If I'm on the record.
What I said was that I felt it unlikely that we were looking at TMV, and trying to offer other possibilities I think are more likely. I'm searching, and having a hard time finding a single case of TMV in cannabis confirmed by electron microscopy or the like.
What I did find in Hemp Diseases and Pests was that back inoculations to indicator plants proved TMV causes symptomless infections in cannabis. But, such findings have been proven wrong over and over. eg, What plants were tested? Will different plants (with different cannabinoid/terpinoid profiles) show susceptibility and symptoms to differing degrees/percentages? I think most certainly the answer to that would be yes. But, cannabis is very resistant to viral infections, THC, as well as other terpenoids/flavonoids are antiviral, and a quick patent search will show folks going for antiviral cannabis based patents.
Bottom line I guess is that it could be viral, it could be TMV, though how folks zero'd in on TMV out of 1200 possibles is questionable. It could be bacterial, it could be abiotic, it could be genetics, etc, etc, or some combination of the above. I just think it wise to dig a little deeper, this type of thing is very common in genetics too. I think if you were to ask someone like DJ Short, he might agree that he's witnessed similar types of (genetic) phenomenon as well.
I've seen similar malformation/discoloration often present in highly inbred lines.
An example from Allard's Principles of Plant Breeding section on penetrance - "An old and widely grown variety (Ventura) of the lima bean (Phaseolus lunatus) is homozygous for a dominant allele that causes the tips and margins of unifoliate leaves of seedlings to be partly deficient in chlorophyll. Yet, it is rare for more than 10% of seedlings to show this characteristic; hence, the penetrance of this allele is usually less than 10%. Under certain environmental conditions, however, nearly all plants show the character so that penetrance is nearly 100%. In other environmental conditions no plants show the character, so that penetrance is zero. In addition, there can be wide variation in the manner in which these alleles are expressed in different plants."
If it is indeed a virus, a single unseen whitefly or the like could spread it around your room.
I'd be seeking out folks who have no such problems with the same cuts and pick apart their environment from temps to nutrients and see if I couldn't make it disappear. -Tom
What I said was that I felt it unlikely that we were looking at TMV, and trying to offer other possibilities I think are more likely. I'm searching, and having a hard time finding a single case of TMV in cannabis confirmed by electron microscopy or the like.
What I did find in Hemp Diseases and Pests was that back inoculations to indicator plants proved TMV causes symptomless infections in cannabis. But, such findings have been proven wrong over and over. eg, What plants were tested? Will different plants (with different cannabinoid/terpinoid profiles) show susceptibility and symptoms to differing degrees/percentages? I think most certainly the answer to that would be yes. But, cannabis is very resistant to viral infections, THC, as well as other terpenoids/flavonoids are antiviral, and a quick patent search will show folks going for antiviral cannabis based patents.
Bottom line I guess is that it could be viral, it could be TMV, though how folks zero'd in on TMV out of 1200 possibles is questionable. It could be bacterial, it could be abiotic, it could be genetics, etc, etc, or some combination of the above. I just think it wise to dig a little deeper, this type of thing is very common in genetics too. I think if you were to ask someone like DJ Short, he might agree that he's witnessed similar types of (genetic) phenomenon as well.
I've seen similar malformation/discoloration often present in highly inbred lines.
An example from Allard's Principles of Plant Breeding section on penetrance - "An old and widely grown variety (Ventura) of the lima bean (Phaseolus lunatus) is homozygous for a dominant allele that causes the tips and margins of unifoliate leaves of seedlings to be partly deficient in chlorophyll. Yet, it is rare for more than 10% of seedlings to show this characteristic; hence, the penetrance of this allele is usually less than 10%. Under certain environmental conditions, however, nearly all plants show the character so that penetrance is nearly 100%. In other environmental conditions no plants show the character, so that penetrance is zero. In addition, there can be wide variation in the manner in which these alleles are expressed in different plants."
If it is indeed a virus, a single unseen whitefly or the like could spread it around your room.
I'd be seeking out folks who have no such problems with the same cuts and pick apart their environment from temps to nutrients and see if I couldn't make it disappear. -Tom
My thoughts:
Just because you haven't seen it listed as such in Stitch's Infirmary Sticky or elsewhere DOES NOT mean it IS NOT a Deficiency OR Over Fertilization. In fact A LOT of the pics look like the beginning of K Toxicity to me (leaves beginning right angle turns, Mg and Ca uptake effected)
MUCH of the above statements are based off of the fact that many growers are using Pre-Fab/"Boutique", BOTTLED nutrients. KEEP IN MIND you can only adjust the STRENGTH of the nutes when using the pre fab Nutrient systems. You have no ability to tailor the N-P-K-Ca-Mg-etc ratio unless you use additives. As for Organic growers who blend their own mixes; It's quite possible that that Bat guano etc matches the 0-10-10 or whatever on the bag, but I HIGHLY DOUBT every batch is exactly the same. Same goes for bags of peat and pre made mixes such as Promix, or if you remember the "hot" mixes Fox Farm produced on several occasions.
It's very similar to how MANY of those who run extremely sativa leaning hybrids and full on sativas usually display that N toxicity, ram's horn leaf curling. Then after several runs, IF they continue with the strain they "lose yield" because they back off on the nutes and the N curling goes away but the strain quite possibly may want more P, K, Mg etc.
Also, can smoking TMV tainted tobacco spread this disease (if it's even possible MJ can contract it, Which IMO isn't possible). If it is a possibility, I feel you'd be seeing MANY more "infected" cuttings. I know many growers who smoke cigs in or near the growroom
Just because you haven't seen it listed as such in Stitch's Infirmary Sticky or elsewhere DOES NOT mean it IS NOT a Deficiency OR Over Fertilization. In fact A LOT of the pics look like the beginning of K Toxicity to me (leaves beginning right angle turns, Mg and Ca uptake effected)
MUCH of the above statements are based off of the fact that many growers are using Pre-Fab/"Boutique", BOTTLED nutrients. KEEP IN MIND you can only adjust the STRENGTH of the nutes when using the pre fab Nutrient systems. You have no ability to tailor the N-P-K-Ca-Mg-etc ratio unless you use additives. As for Organic growers who blend their own mixes; It's quite possible that that Bat guano etc matches the 0-10-10 or whatever on the bag, but I HIGHLY DOUBT every batch is exactly the same. Same goes for bags of peat and pre made mixes such as Promix, or if you remember the "hot" mixes Fox Farm produced on several occasions.
It's very similar to how MANY of those who run extremely sativa leaning hybrids and full on sativas usually display that N toxicity, ram's horn leaf curling. Then after several runs, IF they continue with the strain they "lose yield" because they back off on the nutes and the N curling goes away but the strain quite possibly may want more P, K, Mg etc.
Also, can smoking TMV tainted tobacco spread this disease (if it's even possible MJ can contract it, Which IMO isn't possible). If it is a possibility, I feel you'd be seeing MANY more "infected" cuttings. I know many growers who smoke cigs in or near the growroom
N
NOYB
Or give them an 'infected' cut of same strain and have them grow it under the same conditions long as both cuts were legitimate...due to things like mislabeling and such. For sure there are peeps that believe it's not contagious and a 'simple' enviro or nute issue so there should be no problem accepting an 'infected' plant into their grow space.
I think peeps should be a bit more respectful of input from Jeff on this one and his perspective/experience. Would be nice to get to the bottom of this and my only interest is in a resolution.
N
NOYB
As I said earlier Cabby attributed the decimation of his mom room to smoking/handling ciggys in the area. He is not a hack...not even close. He said TMV but seems not much scientific support for that in part cause, I feel, canna can't be openly and thoroughly researched so up to private growers to cooperate and help figure things out.
If someone is gonna see something 'new' it'll be peeps growing canna in their closets.
Well Im a lazy ass cannabis grower who grows all his cuts in about EVERY type of medium / less system going, so we shall see what effects this more.
Thanks for all the productive input guys, and to some others, thanks for keepin this place original!
Thanks for all the productive input guys, and to some others, thanks for keepin this place original!
