MSNBC says Obama to legalize

[gingerale]

Sure it will...by pouring tons of money (mandated, by law) into the pockets of companies that sell the medical record software...which of course has to comply with 3,742 different regulations...and thus costs $50,000+ a seat. A true free market solution would be a tiny fraction of the price, and would be almost as good if not better. That is just one of billions of examples of how government regulations make things more expensive by taking choice away from the market. We do not have a free market, by a long shot. Do you not see how all the piles of rules and regulations and mandates we are forced to follow (for better or worse) make us less free, and drive dollars right into the pockets of middlemen, by design?

 

[FlowerFarmer]

The problem is that it is an unconstitutional direct tax (aka penalty) on the personal income of every American.

"The bottom line is that the Supreme Court has a history of giving the government latitude to get around the Constitution. Instead of looking at the intent of legislation (even when the legislators are alive to be asked), or even its practical effect, the Court looks for any legal technicality upon which to base a ruling of constitutionality. That is what happened with the income tax, and is now occurring with the Affordable Care Act. Had the Supreme Court been more forthright with the income tax, the country would not now be suffering from a destructive and pervasive tax that was originally intended to be a small levy targeted only at the top 1% of American earners."


Its not going to ultimately help the American people. Its another tax to continue to drain the savings of the working class American. If this system wasnt so setup to fuck the people and their savings people could afford health care.

The root problem is the constant debasement of our currency to fund federal fuck-all. If we were capable of saving our earnings and not have our wealth stolen from us through the largest ponzi scheme in history (currency debasement) we simply wouldn't have these problems or the need mandated health care.

Fuck Obamacare... fuck more government and their intervention into "free" markets. More government is the problem.. not the solution.

chronic disease can be prevented with a pill

Or simply by diet. Eating fruits, vegetables, seeds, nuts & little else as we are anatomically designed to do. But we'll leave that for another discussion.

 

[smoke1sun]

The problem is that it is an unconstitutional direct tax (aka penalty) on the personal income of every American.

"The bottom line is that the Supreme Court has a history of giving the government latitude to get around the Constitution. Instead of looking at the intent of legislation (even when the legislators are alive to be asked), or even its practical effect, the Court looks for any legal technicality upon which to base a ruling of constitutionality. That is what happened with the income tax, and is now occurring with the Affordable Care Act. Had the Supreme Court been more forthright with the income tax, the country would not now be suffering from a destructive and pervasive tax that was originally intended to be a small levy targeted only at the top 1% of American earners."


Its not going to ultimately help the American people. Its another tax to continue to drain the savings of the working class American.

Might not help you personally, but to say its not gonna help the American people is not true. Tell the lady whom I know personally who's son was born with leukemia. she is very close to her lifetime maximum, then what? Insurance companies will not insure the sick.

Preexisting condition is what they call it and its robbery.

Then you have people who have paid into health insurance and has never had to use it. What does the insurance company do for them? nothing. Take their money. There's not lifetime maximum on the amount I pay in. Its a risk and the consumers take all the risk.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Maybe a bad choice of words.

That form of help can come in other forms then a unconstitutional tax against Americans is all I'm saying.

Why are we fitting the bill and not the insurance companies or medical companies raking in the billions due to their collusion?

 

[gingerale]

Might not help you personally, but to say its not gonna help the American people is not true. Tell the lady whom I know personally who's son was born with leukemia. she is very close to her lifetime maximum, then what? Insurance companies will not insure the sick.

This is exactly why government is the problem. Don't you see? If government weren't interfering in the market and driving up the costs, you wouldn't need insurance to pay for everything! The vast majority of medical care would be affordable and accessible. And if they weren't destroying our currency through inflation, you could just save up the money you need for your health care, instead of the government forcibly taking it out of your paycheck saying they know how to spend it better than you. If you still can't afford the care you need due to bad luck or whatever, there's always charity. If no charity will help you, then I guess you're just fucked. Nobody has the right to demand free health care, because no such thing exists. Nothing is free in this world.

Then you have people who have paid into health insurance and has never had to use it. What does the insurance company do for them? nothing. Take their money. There's not lifetime maximum on the amount I pay in. Its a risk and the consumers take all the risk.

Yes, insurance is a scam. It always has been, and always will be. So do you think the government should be forcing people to buy in to a scam? If the system is set up so that one is required to buy in to a scam to get health care, isn't that system fundamentally broken?

 

[Penguin59]

This is exactly why government is the problem. Don't you see? If government weren't interfering in the market and driving up the costs, you wouldn't need insurance to pay for everything! The vast majority of medical care would be affordable and accessible. And if they weren't destroying our currency through inflation, you could just save up the money you need for your health care, instead of the government forcibly taking it out of your paycheck saying they know how to spend it better than you. If you still can't afford the care you need due to bad luck or whatever, there's always charity. If no charity will help you, then I guess you're just fucked. Nobody has the right to demand free health care, because no such thing exists. Nothing is free in this world.


Yes, insurance is a scam. It always has been, and always will be. So do you think the government should be forcing people to buy in to a scam? If the system is set up so that one is required to buy in to a scam to get health care, isn't that system fundamentally broken?

"Forcibly taking it out of your paycheck saying they know how to spend it better than you"???? Well why aren't you campaigning to have the army, the entire defense force and the social security system disbanded? Where do you think the money for those services comes from? You guessed it, taxes that the government forcibly takes from you and spends at their discretion! Nobody seems to care that the US funded three wars with the taxes it took from its people, but to institute a tax to protect its own citizens from going bankrupt due to their medical bills? That's crazy, socialist talk right? There are some fundamental services that any federal government is obligated to provide for its citizens (at least, that's the opinion of 90% of first world countries). Affordable health care is unquestionably one of them.

Almost all other developed countries in the world have some form of universal health care except the United States. I would say that it's about time that the government stepped in and started regulating this rapidly inflating and unsustainable private health care system that's been created. You can't say that the government has no right to do so and let me assure you, it's not them who have been driving up and inflating prices. Not everything needs to be free market based as all free market based systems inevitably favour the rich and leave behind the poor. The attitude of "if no charity will help you then I guess you're just fucked" is a mentality that is keeping people in the dark ages. The way a government or country should be judged is how it takes care of it's least fortunate citizens, not how much it builds up its rich.



In a perfect world you would be right. The government shouldn't have to force anyone to buy into any kind of private insurance but there was/is literally no other way to fix a basically derailed system.

I think the current administration just recognised that a complete overhaul of the medical system would have been impossible. It's a task that could be compared to trying to get all cars off gasoline by 2020. The ideas and concepts of a non-government regulated, private health insurance system in the USA are so deeply entrenched that the only way to regulate and make the system fair again is by slowly adding amendments and acts that steer the country out of the hole it's dug for itself.

This is the first significant step toward a universal health care system since Medicare and Medicaid were introduced in 1965 and I don't understand why so many people are fighting it.

 

[demasoni]

I've never been a sales associate.
Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by bobblehead
There seems to be a lot of self-proclaimed expert political scientists and public health workers here... lol Stick to what you know. Buncha professional pot growers and sales associates talking like they know about economics and health care...
</td></tr></tbody></table> Now this is irony.
Yes I will stick to what I know.

I'll also add that an individual does not have to be a certified expert to know what they are talking about. Medical circumstances in my life alone forced me to familiarize myself with the health care system well beyond the average individual, including persons in the health field who in no way belong there. I wish everyday though that these circumstances did not exist.
I'm an insider looking out, I know the current problems we have and have dealt with them my entire life. Do I know everything? No. However, I do know firsthand this reform as it stands is putting the final nails in countless coffins.
Repeat after me, “Centralization is bad”.


Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by bobblehead
Did you? I bet you didn't. It's really really long.
</td></tr></tbody></table>
Its subjective length did not deter me (as intended). I know the tactic of burying. The longer it is the more important it is we read it in its entirety. That is always the rule and I make no exceptions.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by bobblehead
if you've read it, you know why we need to reform our current health care system.
</td></tr></tbody></table>
Wrong.
I saw the need for change in our health care long before they even drafted the atrocity.
I have long experienced the negative impacts of quantitative health care over qualitative health care, it’s a scourge. "How many patients can we cram in a day and not catch a malpractice? lets find out! fuck it if we misdiagnose half of them! More patients, more money! High five bro!" This will only get worse with the Act as Govt bureaucracy further strains the resources of already strained practices. If the average physician can barely do it right under the pressure of their own administrators then I can’t imagine what makes you think further government oversight will improve performance. It seems like the utopian notion of "better" and "more affordable" access to care is the only component supporters of this reform see.

Just because its "change and we're in need of it", doesn't mean it’s good “change”.
That simply falls right back in line with the mentality of Bummers generalized “change” campaign platform.

Let’s talk about privacy.
Govt centralization of EMR is BAD, there’s so much abuse potential there I don't know where to start.
There are plenty of physicians who don’t want anything to do with EMR in the first place, but fuck them right? the Gov’t knows what makes that physicians practice run better! Oh wait, they don’t. EMR just makes record centralization and the subsequent destruction of patient privacy that much easier.
That’s right, we need to give the government authority over our medical data and appoint panels to make generalized decisions about YOUR health- what a joke. Allowing the Govt to centrally compile then outsource your health data to NGOs for "research purposes" without your consent is totally fine? It is not fine, it is despicable.
Sadly that isn't even the tip of the iceberg. We do not need the government, with their infinite medical knowledge (laugh), approving what type of equipment your providers do and don’t need. Wow now that’s REALLY good for us. Why don't you ask several hundred physicians what their position is on that along with EMR compliance?
You have no idea what you are sacrificing when you turn health care over to the government like this. Fuck your privacy, right?
Your pres and his handlers sure as hell doesn't respect it, yet you respect them.
Wake up people, wake up.

I am not wasting any more time debating this subject.

 

[demasoni]

double post

 

[demasoni]

Im really afraid of genetic manipulation. I dont want that to happen at any cost..I have do doubt that they will be able to produce THC without growing cannabis. This is what people might see when Monsanto gets there paws on it.. IT would not surprise me one bit if they already have something..

My concerns also. I worry about them doing to MJ crops what they have already done to produce farmers crops. If they have their way we would have to grow in an air tight filtered bunkers to keep their pollen out.

These companies always have secret project they work on. They dont need any gov approval they just do it anyway......

 

[Ruosk]

"They" can already produce THC without growing - it's just that growing the plant is cheaper, as is producing morphine and semi-synthetic opioids from poppy straw instead of complete synthesis. And with cannabis, the magic is in the complete mix of different cannabioids that differs from plant to plant (and strain to strain) and different mixes suit different needs

 

[FlowerFarmer]

"Forcibly taking it out of your paycheck saying they know how to spend it better than you"???? Well why aren't you campaigning to have the army, the entire defense force and the social security system disbanded? Where do you think the money for those services comes from? You guessed it, taxes that the government forcibly takes from you and spends at their discretion!

We should be!

Our defense "budget" is one of the largest contributors to deficit spending. What happened to merely protecting our borders as the military was created to do?
The Social Security system has run its course. It's unfair and it's economically destructive. It's time for the program to be abolished.

You can't say that the government has no right to do so and let me assure you, it's not them who have been driving up and inflating prices.

Um.. inflation? yes it is....and NO, they don't have that right. They are directly responsible for the debasement of our currency (resulting in inflation) due to the power that they have given the private entity know as the Federal Reserve. You can not run deficits 10 times the size of your economy. It is not possible. This is why we've seen stimulus this, Twist, and QE that.. its their way of stealing from the income of Americans to fund deficit spending and try to keep their scam alive.

And now they are spending more every month ($40 billion) via QE3 then we spent in 11 years of war in Iraq. Run away inflation here we come. Who do you think is responsible?

Government stimulus doesn't work....period..if it did they wouldnt have to keep doing it while calling it something else... and things will not get better in this country until they stop it. QE is not the answer. Deficit Spending is not the answer. Direct taxation is not the answer.

Responsible spending and honest monetary policy is the answer. AKA.. spending less money then you bring in. Its that simple.



The only way they are slipping this unconstitutional health health care act through is because the direct tax (aka penalty) is lower then the actual health care amount. This will not work. They'll continually raise the penalty to prevent people from dropping health care.. furthermore people will only get the health care once they've become sick. It simply is not going to work... a loop hole to force us to give money to a private insurance company. Fuck that.

Please point to that clause of The Constitution where We delegated to the federal government power to control our medical care?


Any argument given in regards to the mandated health care act is null and void in my opinion as it is unconstitutional under Art. 1, Sec. 8 of the Constitution. Its unconstitutional without any doubt, and goes outside the scope of the legislative powers We the People granted to Congress.

How do you think our Founding Fathers would interpret this?
I don't think this is the time to be re-writing the Constitution and that is exactly what this ruling has done.

 

[demasoni]

We should be!

Our defense "budget" is one of the largest contributors to deficit spending. What happened to merely protecting our borders as the military was created to do?
The Social Security system has run its course. It's unfair and it's economically destructive. It's time for the program to be abolished.

Um.. inflation? yes it is....and NO, they don't have that right. They are directly responsible for the debasement of our currency (resulting in inflation) due to the power that they have given the private entity know as the Federal Reserve. You can not run deficits 10 times the size of your economy. It is not possible. This is why we've seen stimulus this, Twist, and QE that.. its their way of stealing from the income of Americans to fund deficit spending and try to keep their scam alive.

And now they are spending more every month ($40 billion) via QE3 then we spent in 11 years of war in Iraq. Run away inflation here we come. Who do you think is responsible?

Government stimulus doesn't work....period..if it did they wouldnt have to keep doing it while calling it something else... and things will not get better in this country until they stop it. QE is not the answer. Deficit Spending is not the answer. Direct taxation is not the answer.

Responsible spending and honest monetary policy is the answer. AKA.. spending less money then you bring in. Its that simple.



The only way they are slipping this unconstitutional health health care act through is because the direct tax (aka penalty) is lower then the actual health care amount. This will not work. They'll continually raise the penalty to prevent people from dropping health care.. furthermore people will only get the health care once they've become sick. It simply is not going to work... a loop hole to force us to give money to a private insurance company. Fuck that.

Please point to that clause of The Constitution where We delegated to the federal government power to control our medical care?


Any argument given in regards to the mandated health care act is null and void in my opinion as it is unconstitutional under Art. 1, Sec. 8 of the Constitution. Its unconstitutional without any doubt, and goes outside the scope of the legislative powers We the People granted to Congress.

How do you think our Founding Fathers would interpret this?
I don't think this is the time to be re-writing the Constitution and that is exactly what this ruling has done.

Forget my last post on the issue. This^ is all that needs to be said. Well done flower farmer.

 

[ijim]

Fox seen that the other big three networks were leaning left. And made a business decision to lean right. It was a decision that has made them very wealthy. While the other three big broadcasters have to share their liberal viewer market. Fox gets the lions share of the conservative viewer market. It is the whole hooray for our side liberal conservative game that allows government and media to keep the people divided. And divide our money. Keep playing their games and end up their slaves.

 

[gingerale]

Preach it brothers, demasoni and FlowerFarmer. I can't really add any more to what's already been said as it's once again so on point on every level, other than to add even more emphasis to just how horribly bad of an idea this forced digitization of records is. They are trying to compile all this stuff into centralized databases so that the government can have unlimited access to everyone's health data, right alongside all the other information they have been collecting and bringing together. This ability absolutely will be abused. They are building a huge datacenter out west as we speak for the sole purpose of warrantless wiretapping all Internet communications. (Google it.) This is only one part of extremely scary picture that is emerging in this country. I'm saying this as a computer expert; I've been programming since I was 8, I know fucktons about how vulnerable computer systems and digital records are to exploitation and abuse, and combined with what I know about our government and their ambitions, this is really seriously fucking scary times to be living in right now. Obamacare absolutely must be opposed, and we need to take it further than that and get the government out of healthcare entirely.

 

[OrganicBuds]

Preach it brothers, demasoni and FlowerFarmer. I can't really add any more to what's already been said as it's once again so on point on every level, other than to add even more emphasis to just how horribly bad of an idea this forced digitization of records is. They are trying to compile all this stuff into centralized databases so that the government can have unlimited access to everyone's health data, right alongside all the other information they have been collecting and bringing together. This ability absolutely will be abused. They are building a huge datacenter out west as we speak for the sole purpose of warrantless wiretapping all Internet communications. (Google it.) This is only one part of extremely scary picture that is emerging in this country. I'm saying this as a computer expert; I've been programming since I was 8, I know fucktons about how vulnerable computer systems and digital records are to exploitation and abuse, and combined with what I know about our government and their ambitions, this is really seriously fucking scary times to be living in right now. Obamacare absolutely must be opposed, and we need to take it further than that and get the government out of healthcare entirely.

Amen!

 

[Hempsmoke]

Nobody has the right to demand free health care, because no such thing exists.

Wrong.
This should be the right of every single person living on this fckd up planet.
Ps. its the private sector trying to exploit everyone (including the government) to maximize their profits AND if the government doesent interfere in the market you will get cartells (does I.G. farben tell you something???) that will sooner or later dictate the laws because of their superior $$$$$ power.

 

[whodare]

Wrong.
This should be the right of every single person living on this fckd up planet.
Ps. its the private sector trying to exploit everyone (including the government) to maximize their profits AND if the government doesent interfere in the market you will get cartells (does I.G. farben tell you something???) that will sooner or later dictate the laws because of their superior $$$$$ power.

Your retarded if you don't understand the implication of your idea...


Who pays for it?

Labor units are the base of the economy. You don't even get natural resources without mans labor.

So if a labor unit is needed to provide healthcare who provides it in your fantasy land?

Is the doctor forced to provide care for free?

Do we use the governments monopoly on legal violence to extract the cost from the society at large?

Dowe print dollars?


I don't know about you, but all of those sound faily immoral, and if anyone other than gov did any of those things they'd end up in jail.

But I know I know, the masters know best, and it works out perfect, they have conditioned whole generations to believe they are entitled to another mans labor for free, soon folks like me will be extinct and you can all live in communes where everything is free and gov is the answer.

 

[headband 707]

"Forcibly taking it out of your paycheck saying they know how to spend it better than you"???? Well why aren't you campaigning to have the army, the entire defense force and the social security system disbanded? Where do you think the money for those services comes from? You guessed it, taxes that the government forcibly takes from you and spends at their discretion! Nobody seems to care that the US funded three wars with the taxes it took from its people, but to institute a tax to protect its own citizens from going bankrupt due to their medical bills? That's crazy, socialist talk right? There are some fundamental services that any federal government is obligated to provide for its citizens (at least, that's the opinion of 90% of first world countries). Affordable health care is unquestionably one of them.

Almost all other developed countries in the world have some form of universal health care except the United States. I would say that it's about time that the government stepped in and started regulating this rapidly inflating and unsustainable private health care system that's been created. You can't say that the government has no right to do so and let me assure you, it's not them who have been driving up and inflating prices. Not everything needs to be free market based as all free market based systems inevitably favour the rich and leave behind the poor. The attitude of "if no charity will help you then I guess you're just fucked" is a mentality that is keeping people in the dark ages. The way a government or country should be judged is how it takes care of it's least fortunate citizens, not how much it builds up its rich.



In a perfect world you would be right. The government shouldn't have to force anyone to buy into any kind of private insurance but there was/is literally no other way to fix a basically derailed system.

I think the current administration just recognised that a complete overhaul of the medical system would have been impossible. It's a task that could be compared to trying to get all cars off gasoline by 2020. The ideas and concepts of a non-government regulated, private health insurance system in the USA are so deeply entrenched that the only way to regulate and make the system fair again is by slowly adding amendments and acts that steer the country out of the hole it's dug for itself.

This is the first significant step toward a universal health care system since Medicare and Medicaid were introduced in 1965 and I don't understand why so many people are fighting it.

WAR,WAR,WAR! 3 out of 12 months PAYS for that madness! I didn't know you guys could afford that ? LOL ffs... really? headband 707

 

[Hempsmoke]

Your retarded if you don't understand the implication of your idea...


Who pays for it?

Labor units are the base of the economy. You don't even get natural resources without mans labor.

So if a labor unit is needed to provide healthcare who provides it in your fantasy land?

Is the doctor forced to provide care for free?

Do we use the governments monopoly on legal violence to extract the cost from the society at large?

Dowe print dollars?


I don't know about you, but all of those sound faily immoral, and if anyone other than gov did any of those things they'd end up in jail.

But I know I know, the masters know best, and it works out perfect, they have conditioned whole generations to believe they are entitled to another mans labor for free, soon folks like me will be extinct and you can all live in communes where everything is free and gov is the answer.

The fantasy land, also known as Denmark, has only one insurance company, and thats the government.
Every resident gets free healthcare.

But thats just a fantasy land somewhere in the imaginary continent europe located in a galaxy thats far far away.

 

[dagnabit]

The fantasy land, also known as Denmark, has only one insurance company, and thats the government.
Every resident pays for healthcare.

But thats just a fantasy land somewhere in the imaginary continent europe located in a galaxy thats far far away.

fixed