I can't believe how many of you have picked a side and stuck with it, it's OK to admit when you were wrong, we're all learning still. Both garywolf and CC have made some good points, but CC is hardly being destroyed.
Graywolf and some of you others are debating in a rather dirty fashion and its cool to see CC not responding in kind.
Would love to see rebuttal from graywolf on the points CC had made.
Even if I shared them you couldnt legally design the same system. To be clear they are in the patent process, but still legally protected. This includes the sight glass on the tank, the overall design of the system, and a lot of stuff not listed and stuff you have not yet seen on this simplified version. Our patents cover 4 different types of machines, and not just scaled up versions of this one.
If you build your own I'm sure we wont say anything but good stuff. I think we will only go after companies and groups that sell or distribute devices that infringe on our patents.
I appreciate your response and in the effort of continuing to answer further questions I will simply take what I gather form your response and not question it until its my turn.
What I take from your response is for years you had a policy of
"Look what Im doing! Its dangerous, so don't do it, but this is exactly how you do it. Here are some actual detailed blueprints but dont do it ok? Since I'm not selling it its ok, and I have no responsibility If you hurt yourself coping me."
This is how you drive a car, they can be dangerous.
How many folks have been maimed and killed in autos since I introduced my recycle system?
How many folks weren't blown up because they were using recycle instead of blasting?
How many cancer patient lives were saved because of the sudden increased oil concentrate supply?
How much ground level fog was not there because less folks are open blasting.
Where does perspective come into play? Just how prone to explosion are Appions running butane?
The answer is that actual risk is low, or I and other engineers qualified by training and experience wouldn't be using it.
The amount of butane vented is normally zero, and if it does start to leak, the rate is not fast enough to accumulate to explosive levels in the rapidly moving air stream.
Certainly nothing to be ignored, and if I worked for Appion, I would have written a similar letter for liability reasons.
By the same token nothing to justify your Chicken Little act.
In perspective, the risk is far less than driving to the store to pick up the butane.
How extensive are the leaks, if they do leak?
Very small, because they are what is leaking past the piston seal, which is tightly sqeezed into the cylinder and leaves little open space, normally none.
How many have blown up?
None to date.
Your teachings have spawned countless copy cats. I can go to my local grow shop today and buy an extractor coupled with an appion, and I know it was directly from your years of showing the community how to do this.
It is a matter of public record that any number of people have copied the Terpenator design and not everyone selling recycle equipment is trustworthy. Sort of the topic of this conversation, isn't it?
It is also a matter of reading the forums I've posted on, including our own blog, which takes those people to task who are telling the public that Appion's are rated for flammable hydrocarbons.
Note the article entitled Caveat Emptor on our home page:
http://skunkpharmresearch.com/
You talk a lot about educating people and offering me guidance. I can plainly see that the teachings you have offered include statements such as:
I sell no devices. I have sold no devices.
No, I've always told folks they were not NEMA 7 explosion proof rated.
A leaking piston seal vents small quantities of butane, which if ignited would more closely resemble a bunsen burner than a conflagration like your butane filled borosilicate tube open at the top, if ignited by a spark.
I've used Appions extensively, because they work, but have never recommended them beyond reporting the extent to which they work compared to others, and repeatedly noting that they aren't NEMA 7.
Your own followers report the following:
Ive torn apart tons of g5's and never seen anything degrading, just machines covered in BHO.
For years you taught people how to incorporate leaky non fire rated devices that get covered in oil because it "worked". They looked at all of your pictures and saw you using the. You recommended the damn thing to me and you are lying flat out.
Calling me a liar certainly unsheaths your sword, but make sure you grab it by the right end.
What I am saying about my actions is a matter of public record and easily confirmed. What will that do for your reputation once any interest folks have done so?
People look to you for answers on what to do when building and operating their own extraction machines. You taught them faulty tech and methods and hid behind saying the above nonsense. Slick. I'm saying that you are still doing it now by discrediting an alternative. You have taken the stance that because you don't profit from your words you have no responsibility in your previous actions. Actions that have shaped todays extraction community.
Yup, people do look to me for answers, and overwhelm my inboxes with questions. Ostensibly because I continue to provide information that works for them and ask for nothing in return.
With that comes the responsibility of continuing to provide them with truthful information to the best of my ability. That is why I have taken your actions and statements to task.
I am actually buried in mail right now and am falling further behind carrying on this conversation.
You want to take all the positive credit for your doings and none of the responsibility your nonproft implications of how you "do dangerous things, but dont do what I do, I'm just saying its possible" has shaped the community".
Ill take time to answer the questions I can gather from all of the previous posts.
So let me understand this. Your going to tell me that GreyWolf has NEVER said that an appion is safe to use, yet has pictures of him using it all over his site. So what exactly is going on here then?
The verbiage on the site explains what is going on, but I don't see it recommending an Appion or telling anyone it is NEMA 7. I infer that you didn't post the link because it didn't support your argument, so here it is for anyone seeking truth.
http://skunkpharmresearch.com/projects/
But your going to sit here and berate me on a one second off gas of oxygen. When we have both been open blasting for ten years?Seriously.
Let those with ears hear.
Show us your approval document from Multnomah or Clackamas County fire marshal for your videoed procedure inside an enclosure, venting butane air mixture, and wearing synthetic garments.
If you got a fire marshal to approve of a non fire rated Hvac pump to run butane you both had better take a serious look at your actions. Just because you can trick some unknowing fire marshal into something doesn't mean shit. I absolutely, positively, GUARANTEE that if you showed a fire marshal appions own documents about explosion and contamination issues and told him it was just because they were tired of rebuilding pumps he would look at you like you were straight full of shit.
Who do we know of that is trying to get an Appion by a fire marshal and what fire marshal was dumb enough to sigh off?
Making up fairy tale scenarios in the sky doesn't have anything to do with current reality, nor does it change the fact that you have a public video demonstrating your lack of concern for safety.
If you will mail me a copy, I will run it by our local fire marshal for you and publish the results on this forum, so we have a third party opinion.
I mean its not like they repeated keep putting out documents very, VERY clearly telling you guys to stop doing this and telling you exactly why. That is one of the reasons I personally get so upset, because you guys just don't get it. You'll make every excuse in the book why this is ok and it is not. You speak for companies when you have no right to do so. When they speak you disregard it, and blow off their warnings. You tried to do it to me today. Lucky for me I work with that company and know exactly how they feel about the valves. And lucky for me I have personally spoken to the engineers at appion about this issue in the past and you sir are not correct on either statement.
Ah, the informed voice plaudit. Lots of us talked to Appion's engineers.
You are wrong about leaching. Again, I work in an industry that may be a little too precise for this issue.
OH, so now your level of precision exceeds ours to the point that you have to talk down to us?
PTFE leaches into butane. The engineer I am working with is currently working on this for a larger company, and their issue is getting PTFE contamination to under 5 parts per billion.
Let us get this straight so we might all savor it. You are telling us that the butane passing through the Appion is picking up more than 5ppb from the piston seals???????
Would you please post the source of that information from a reliable source, as it flies in the face of published corrosion data?
Butane is a simple saturated alkane with a dielectric constant close to zero at 1.34. How does it chemicaly attack something like PTFE?
http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-...390839&pdv=c&gclid=CPrN8cDMmMMCFVKPfgod9ZwAsA
If not chemically, how about wear? How long would it last at the wear rate you have just shared?
I have been repeatedly told I need to swap out the PTFE gaskets in our valves by the engineers that manufacture the valves, the same valves they test to the parts per billion for the semiconductor industry. Whatever you may hear or find on google, this is real industry application, not your buddies cut and paste thread. Point is that the crap gaskets found in HVAC units are a far cry from PTFE.
Please share with us what you swapped your PTFE gaskets in your valves for brother CC.
Are you talking about the orings on three piece valves, or the valve seats?
When you have to rebuild that thing, where do you think the missing part of the gaskets went? It got thinner, do you think it just disappeared?
You seem to be experience more valve wear that I do brother, but the valves that I use have polished balls, rubbing against PTFE, which gives it a coefficient of friction close to zip. What are you using?
Where I think the PFTE ends up is in the filter, because it is non soluble in the butane and we filter our extracts.
Where do the particles from the valve seats that you use end up and what are they composed of?
Your system is sealed isn't it? That means it has absolutely nowhere to go but into the only thing you remove from the system, the oil your smoking. I don't see filters on the outgoing lines of your pumps, you just put them on the intake to keep oil and moisture out. Even if you put filters on the inlet and the outlet ports you still have off plastic gassing off from heat and friction going into the extraction.
Your filters still get clogged. You still have to rebuild pumps. You still have high pressures. Why the hell would you want to do all that?
You're absolutely right, no one in their right mind would, which is why we don't do what you just fancifully created, seemingly because your plagerized product can't compete with them other wise.
It pains me to disagree with Greywolf. I love that guy.
Even Graywolf's mother doesn't like him, as he is no saint and fabricating untruths against him is a poor way of showing adoration and affection.
As you may recall, most of my followers show affection with hugs.
Life sucks sometimes. I'm not happy. I wish things would have been a little more civil to begin with. He is no doubt writing the worlds best rebuttal and I'm going to get it tomorrow. But the facts are facts. This is a call each other out and put the cards on the table situation. Extracting is dangerous. My machine is not perfect. Nor am I. You will find flaws in me, and my device. But I will come here and stand up for it and answer your questions. And I will say my piece in why using pumps is wrong.
I put up pics of my years old extractor too. Pick it apart. If your cool with greywolf advocating the dangers of recommending a nonflame rated contaminating device for you to use, you should be happy with me advocating mine. And for the record I specifically do not advocate running my machine indoors. Maybe you have forget the places I have been when you say who has advocated and does what. Get over yourself and understand shooting videos is done inside in the winter.
What you demonstrated is not acceptable under any circumstances. That you don't get that, and continue to try to defend it, speaks volumes about your character.
If your going to seriously stand here and tell me a one second burst of air inside is what you pros are all bunched up about you should think twice about what other people think when they read this. Half the planet still open blasts and sees through this nonsense.
We are obviously not going to tell you anything, and we already have told you what our concerns are.
You use hyperbole like water bro! Aren't there some facts you could use?
For instance, I'm banking that half the planet doesn't have a clue about BHO extraction, so you just made that up.
I am also banking that you haven't bothered to read:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=212613
http://skunkpharmresearch.com/butane-safety/
You get more butane fumes removing your column and opening your recovery chamber then you ever will from our offgas.
It just requires enough to flash and burn the operator.
You keep repeating the column removal mantra like it were true, without addressing that the rest of us actually vacuum off the remaining butane to below explosive limits and some backfill with nitrogen.
Why do you continue to ignore that and harp on a hazard that exists with your design when properly used, but not properly used powered designs? Seems like you are shooting yourself in the foot
First line of Operational Parameters from MrExtractor.com:
Only operate Mr. Extractor outdoors.
It doesn’t matter if we do it inside, we are showing you how NOT to do it. Explosion hazards come from gasses igniting in an enclosed space, like being inside. Even tents can explode. Any place that gasses can accumulate is dangerous. Again: outside, and in an open area.
I'm having a hard time grasping you endangering your women folk to make an indoor video of unsafe practices not to follow.
As a side note, I actually have pictures of the degradation inside of the device. Ill throw them up.
View Image
View Image
So let me understand this. Your going to tell me that GreyWolf has NEVER said that an appion is safe to use, yet has pictures of him using it all over his site. So what exactly is going on here then? But your going to sit here and berate me on a one second off gas of oxygen. When we have both been open blasting for ten years?Seriously. If you got a fire marshal to approve of a non fire rated Hvac pump to run butane you both had better take a serious look at your actions. Just because you can trick some unknowing fire marshal into something doesn't mean shit. I absolutely, positively, GUARANTEE that if you showed a fire marshal appions own documents about explosion and contamination issues and told him it was just because they were tired of rebuilding pumps he would look at you like you were straight full of shit. I mean its not like they repeated keep putting out documents very, VERY clearly telling you guys to stop doing this and telling you exactly why. That is one of the reasons I personally get so upset, because you guys just don't get it. You'll make every excuse in the book why this is ok and it is not. You speak for companies when you have no right to do so. When they speak you disregard it, and blow off their warnings. You tried to do it to me today. Lucky for me I work with that company and know exactly how they feel about the valves. And lucky for me I have personally spoken to the engineers at appion about this issue in the past and you sir are not correct on either statement.
You are wrong about leaching. Again, I work in an industry that may be a little too precise for this issue. PTFE leaches into butane. The engineer I am working with is currently working on this for a larger company, and their issue is getting PTFE contamination to under 5 parts per billion. I have been repeatedly told I need to swap out the PTFE gaskets in our valves by the engineers that manufacture the valves, the same valves they test to the parts per billion for the semiconductor industry. Whatever you may hear or find on google, this is real industry application, not your buddies cut and paste thread. Point is that the crap gaskets found in HVAC units are a far cry from PTFE.
When you have to rebuild that thing, where do you think the missing part of the gaskets went? It got thinner, do you think it just disappeared? Your system is sealed isn't it? That means it has absolutely nowhere to go but into the only thing you remove from the system, the oil your smoking. I don't see filters on the outgoing lines of your pumps, you just put them on the intake to keep oil and moisture out. Even if you put filters on the inlet and the outlet ports you still have off plastic gassing off from heat and friction going into the extraction. Your filters still get clogged. You still have to rebuild pumps. You still have high pressures. Why the hell would you want to do all that?
It pains me to disagree with Greywolf. I love that guy. Life sucks sometimes. I'm not happy. I wish things would have been a little more civil to begin with. He is no doubt writing the worlds best rebuttal and I'm going to get it tomorrow. But the facts are facts. This is a call each other out and put the cards on the table situation. Extracting is dangerous. My machine is not perfect. Nor am I. You will find flaws in me, and my device. But I will come here and stand up for it and answer your questions. And I will say my piece in why using pumps is wrong.
I put up pics of my years old extractor too. Pick it apart. If your cool with greywolf advocating the dangers of recommending a nonflame rated contaminating device for you to use, you should be happy with me advocating mine. And for the record I specifically do not advocate running my machine indoors. Maybe you have forget the places I have been when you say who has advocated and does what. Get over yourself and understand shooting videos is done inside in the winter. If your going to seriously stand here and tell me a one second burst of air inside is what you pros are all bunched up about you should think twice about what other people think when they read this. Half the planet still open blasts and sees through this nonsense. You get more butane fumes removing your column and opening your recovery chamber then you ever will from our offgas.
First line of Operational Parameters from MrExtractor.com:
Only operate Mr. Extractor outdoors.
It doesn’t matter if we do it inside, we are showing you how NOT to do it. Explosion hazards come from gasses igniting in an enclosed space, like being inside. Even tents can explode. Any place that gasses can accumulate is dangerous. Again: outside, and in an open area.
As a side note, I actually have pictures of the degradation inside of the device. Ill throw them up.
http://s801.photobucket.com/user/co...xposedtoextractionfluids_zps0514dd9e.jpg.htmlView Image
http://s801.photobucket.com/user/co...eroxidesandotherresidues_zps0a5fe319.jpg.htmlView Image
Well. I have been in contact with the managers of one of the largest celebrities in the world, and definitely in the cannabis world. They have asked me to come to the Xgames in Colorado and present them with the first Mr. Extractor off the line. I think that I'm going to take some time off the internet and go handle that. Things like that can go either way and might not happen, but I'm going to do my best. I'm meeting with the owners of a major magazine tomorrow on the device. Also, in the demo today I received two sales on the larger units sight unseen based off of a demo of the little unit and the product it produces. I'm just getting a little too busy, and off track.
This guy will do well at the Aspen x-games, his time will be much better spent there selling his product to dumb young snowboarders, I know allot of these trust funders, more money than brains.
I can see it now: Look at this extractor bro so sick lets go use it inside our condo like the video I saw, I even read that's how you do extracts when its winter and cold outside..lol..
A yes or no question. Do you have a ME PE stamped document certifying your unit to meet ANSI and ASME?
May we see a copy?