Mk V Terpenator

[queequeg152]

cyclohexane is far less toxic than you think.
even reg. n hexane is not terribly toxic.
not in the levels you would see in the many food products that it is used in.

i see what you are saying regarding the volatility of these botanicals however.

there are numerous methods to extract difficult botanicals of extraordinary high volatility. off the top of my head, i recall seeing two solvent extraction apparatus's that run steam and organic solvent simultaneously to both retain the highly volatile compounds, and extract the much less volatile non polar resins with a solvent like methylene chloride.

the aqueous layer is then extracted with something like ether or chloroform and later stripped

its a workup extraction however, for analytical work if i recall. so its a batch wise process, and probably not terribly efficient, time and power wise.

dont these volatiles get lost when you folks are solvent stripping regardless? ive seen numerous references to vacuuming under heat for days even.

does anyone at all explore an STP liquid solvent extraction? i ask because it would be far far cheaper to fabricate... what would essentially be a fancy gin still.

one could even extend the principal to a continuous process with a wier'd reboiler and reflux diverter. the bottoms product could be drawn off at a constant rate with a very small controllable peristaltic pump, sent to a stripper, and the solvent returned to the reboiler. you would loose almost no solvent.

you could even do a continuous extraction of the solid plant matter, with an auger and hopper type set up. this is what i mean.

its all old school chem e stuff.

 

[Gray Wolf]

its certainly not as easy to strip cyclohexane, but i assure you its possible. cyclohexane is not terribly bad for you anyway = ).

again forgive my ignorance. Id be glad to read anything you could forward to myself... but regarding monoterpenes.

why can they not be extracted with a conventional STP liquid phased solvent?

isobutane is pretty much 100% non polar, and cyclohexane is the epitome of non polar lol.
so it would not seem to be a solubility issue? is it perhaps a temperature issue? though i seem to recall reading that you run the units up to 50 degrees c?

Extraction is dirt simple. The terpenes can easily be extracted with any number of solvents.

Removing the solvent to safe levels, without changing or losing the monoterpenes is the challenge.

You don't have to assure me that the cyclohexane can be removed to below current levels of health concern, because we've done so, but it does produce a different product, specifically one with few, if any monoterpenes, leaving only the sesquiterpenes, diterpene cannabinoids, and plant waxes.

It is also a Class 2 solvent, which the FDA says should be limited in pharmaceutical products because of their inherent toxicity.

Of concern is that our livers can turn hexanes into 2.5 Hexanedione, which is a carcinogen.

 

[queequeg152]

interesting, so you are saying extract without these volatile compounds is measurably less desirable?

owing to a simplified apparatus and procedure, it could likely be produced cheaper( at these scales). do you think such a hypothetical product would not be desirable?

2,5 hexanediol is a result of n-hexane exposure. id like to make that distinction.
the result of cyclohexane exposure is similar but cyclic dione and cyclohexanol. treatment for the latter is the ingestion of alcohol. most all ketones as far as am aware are carcinogenic to some extent, so yea its not without its risks.

 

[Gray Wolf]

interesting, so you are saying extract without these volatile compounds is measurably less desirable?

owing to a simplified apparatus and procedure, it could likely be produced cheaper( at these scales). do you think such a hypothetical product would not be desirable?

2,5 hexanediol is a result of n-hexane exposure. id like to make that distinction.
the result of cyclohexane exposure is similar but cyclic dione and cyclohexanol. treatment for the latter is the ingestion of alcohol. most all ketones as far as am aware are carcinogenic to some extent, so yea its not without its risks.

How desirable the monoterpenes are to you, depends on the product, but in general, the effects from cannabis have been demonstrated to be an entourage effect, because every one of the monoterpenes also has its own medicinal effect, which it adds to the overall effect.

The monoterpenes are also where most of the aroma and flavor reside, so removing them changes the character of those attributes.

If you are making a medication, requiring only the effects from the sesqui and diterpenes, such a high volume apparatus should work.

Why take health risks if you don't have to?

 

[queequeg152]

very interesting. thanks for taking the time.

 

[Dab Strudel]

Gw, is it ok to use pipe or should I only use tubing when doing the hard lines for my system? I dont know where to get tubing, custom cut or full length. I dont need more than a few pieces or less than 10ft. My question arises from the fact that the ID is nominal when naming pipe vs true when naming tubing, thus eating up my 3/8 diameter if I go with pipe... Does pipe show itself to be acceptable or does it not work well?

 

[Gray Wolf]

Gw, is it ok to use pipe or should I only use tubing when doing the hard lines for my system? I dont know where to get tubing, custom cut or full length. I dont need more than a few pieces or less than 10ft. My question arises from the fact that the ID is nominal when naming pipe vs true when naming tubing, thus eating up my 3/8 diameter if I go with pipe... Does pipe show itself to be acceptable or does it not work well?

Stainless pipe works. I get both from Paramount Supply.

If you upsize the tubing, you can get the same ID.

 

[NorPene Solutions]

Sorry if this isn't the right thread, but can someone explain, bottom soak vs top feed. Please forgive my ignorance, but if you closed the bottom valve on the material column and used top feed and then soak before dumping and rinsing are you not accomplishing the same thing as with a bottom feed system?

 

[Gray Wolf]

Sorry if this isn't the right thread, but can someone explain, bottom soak vs top feed. Please forgive my ignorance, but if you closed the bottom valve on the material column and used top feed and then soak before dumping and rinsing are you not accomplishing the same thing as with a bottom feed system?

The reason I designed the Terpenator as a bottom flood and top rinse, is for more uniform wetting and higher extraction efficiency.

When bottom flooding, the liquid floats the gaseous atmosphere out the top of the column, providing uniform material wetting.

When top flooding, the liquid fights its way through the atmosphere, and takes the path of least resistance through the material, so wetting is not uniform. Especially the further you get from the center of the column.

A common mistake is to consider the atmosphere gone after vacuuming, but as soon as you introduce the butane, a gaseous atmosphere is back.

The resistance to flow is highest near the tube walls, so the flow through the center is faster.

With bottom flooding, the tube walls resistance to flow is not an issue.

 

[NorPene Solutions]

The reason I designed the Terpenator as a bottom flood and top rinse, is for more uniform wetting and higher extraction efficiency.

When bottom flooding, the liquid floats the gaseous atmosphere out the top of the column, providing uniform material wetting.

When top flooding, the liquid fights its way through the atmosphere, and takes the path of least resistance through the material, so wetting is not uniform. Especially the further you get from the center of the column.

Thank you so kindly GW!