Mk V Terpenator

[Gray Wolf]

You can end up with any of the above, depending on how you run it.

If you don't run heat on the lower tank, it comes out as cotton candy shatter, like the picture. If you run some heat, you get taffy and if you run 212F, you get partially decarboxylated oil

 

[gethigh]

Bank of columns and multiple collection pots sounds nice!!

 

[Lebniis]

GW, was a 125 lb refrigerant tank used for the mkV?

What was the recovery time? (2 pumps right?)

 

[Gray Wolf]

GW, was a 125 lb refrigerant tank used for the mkV?

What was the recovery time? (2 pumps right?)

Because of a late delivery on a 100# recovery tank, we scrounged what ever refrigerant tank that we could get our hands on. The correct tank is the shorter and fatter 100# unit.

There was so much more demand for wax than decarboxylated oil, that the owner hasn't run wide open yet.

It is taking about four hours for a cold cycle, without using the column heat that has yet to be delivered, or any heat on the collection pot, save cold tap water to melt ice. The TR-21 pumps the owner coveted are on back order, so he is running existing dual Appions until the correct pumps are delivered.

If the cycle times on the Mk I and III are representative, it should cycle in about an hour wide open, with column heat and the larger capacity pumps. With a pneumatic refrigerant pump, it should be even faster.

I'm not sure how short we can get the cold cycles. The longest step is vacuum recovering the butane soaked into the material in the column, and the Mk V will be using silicone heating pads instead of heat wrap tape, so the temperatures will be much higher.

Since the extraction is already complete, there is no harm in pouring the heat to the columns, to boil off the butane so that the recovery pump can get hold of it.

Long way of saying that I have only clues but no answers, and am still working on optimizing this manual beta test sled. I've already come up with some tweaks to speed up the lower tank exchange, which I will incorporate in the automated Mk V beta test sled still under assembly.

The advantage of starting with the manual one, is that it is much simpler and easier to manipulate the variables with, when developing the new process. Although I am building in an electrified manual mode into the automated test sled, the valves are still pneumatically operated and not as fast as just flipping a valve by hand.

Hee, hee, hee, this is the fun part..................

 

[SHC]

What kind of heating element is utilized for the water bath on the terpenator on the rolling stand? Thank You.

 

[RegisPhilburn1]

Thanks for the update

Are you guys dumping the two columns simultaneously or alternately?

 

[Gray Wolf]

What kind of heating element is utilized for the water bath on the terpenator on the rolling stand? Thank You.

He hasn't used one yet, because he is running wax and using cold tap water. When he does, he is planning to use an immersion heater, but the can can also be jacketed and controlled temperature liquid pumped throught it, or a silicone heat wrap used.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Thanks for the update

Are you guys dumping the two columns simultaneously or alternately?

They cycle alternately and give a total capacity of about 5 pounds.

Just picked up some parts to build a Mk IVA, which will use a single 3" X 36" column and hold about 3.6 pounds.

The actual Mk IV never got built, because parts became available that made the whimsical design unnecessary.

 

[SHC]

Any systems available? Can't handle reading anymore, have to have one for the store.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Ummm, can't buy and sell on this forum, but you can't get them from us anyway. It is not in Skunk Pharm Research's charter to manufacture or sell products beyond educational; only services.

You can assemble your own with parts from Glacier Tank and Paramount, or you can contract one made for you. I'm working with a couple of equipment manufacturers, to build the larger units to SPR quality standards, for folks to order, and will license them to attach our skunk, but nothing firm thus far.

So far Specialized Formulations will retail them, as will another company setting up in So Cal.

It would also be premature, since we are still shaking down the manual Mk V, the automated one is still in final assembly, and the Mk IV is just a pile of parts and drawings awaiting machining thus far.

 

[SHC]

Thank You very much for the info. I guess I will track down Specialized Formulations.

 

[Dynamite]

By "automated" , you just mean rather then opening and closing by hand , it will do it for you ? just push a button system ? or , hows the automated system gonna operate ?

got my MKIII yesterday

 

[nakadashi]

By "automated" , you just mean rather then opening and closing by hand , it will do it for you ? just push a button system ? or , hows the automated system gonna operate ?

got my MKIII yesterday

The automated system controls the vac pump, heating element for recovery pot, and all the valves for you.

 

[Gray Wolf]

By "automated" , you just mean rather then opening and closing by hand , it will do it for you ? just push a button system ? or , hows the automated system gonna operate ?

got my MKIII yesterday

Wal, the automated system just keeps on getting more complicated and smart mouthed, but the basics are that you enter the number of cycles you want, how many seconds that you want to flood the column, and the number of columns that you are running, after which you simply push the go button.

It controls and executes whatever pneumatically operated valves and solid state controlled heat circuits, are necessary to execute your commands.

It resets for the next run and switches on an indicator light, to tell you that its finished and not only ready, but eager for you to load it for the next run.

You never have to program those parameters again, until you shut the system down, or elect to.

The LED readout will say what ever you tell Bob, at PSI, that you want it to, so it doesn't have to be smart mouthed. It can greet you and tell you that you are the fairest in the land.

Both Mk II's used a Panasonic PLC, as does the beta Mk V, and next automated Mk V in the pipe, but next in the pipe is a single specially programmed chip, replacing the Panasonic PLC and not only reducing the size of the package, but significantly dropping the cost.

PS: Have fun with your Mk IIIA, it is a fun little hot rod and a good way to learn to extract with a closed loop butane recycle system, at minimum cost. You can do anything folks can do with an open tube, plus some, so bon appetite!

 

[soma151]

Any systems available? Can't handle reading anymore, have to have one for the store.

email me i would love to talk to [email protected]

 

[soma151]

I have a new Mark3 all hoses, tanks, pumps, soup warmer...every thing you need new never used. We have decided to go another way...email me and lets talk [email protected]

 

[nakadashi]

Hey GW just wondering if you have been noticing any problems on the automated setups compared to the manual operated ones?

I have been contemplating delving into automation as well but I would like to improve upon the pre-set cycles and go with a system that intelligently stops when it recognizes when the solute in the solvent is below a certain threshold. This way you can throw in whatever mix of trim you want and not have to worry about not getting maximum yield. Maybe using UV spectroscopy but I still have to consult with my people

 

[Gray Wolf]

We have made some changes in the electronics and programming, but the overall system using pneumatic valves work well.

The Mk II's first customer didn't like the fact that you had to change the flood time with a PC and that she couldn't remember what was happening by watching the illuminated LED's.

The second automated Mk II owner actually built his own and I only helped him finish up the controls, but he had no such issues with the timer and lights. He did make changes to the final heat cycle on the pot and Bob added another relay for him, with a modified program. He has been in commercial operation for a couple of years now.

From the beta testing, we've change the overall design some and are incorporating those changes in the Mk V.

So far we have gone from pressure switches in the Mk II to a transducer in the new system. We have added a reset timer, so that instead of setting how long a flood you want, you push the flood button and when it overflows, you punch it again, and the system floods the rest of the columns that same period of time.

We've also added more to the annunciator board, so that tells what is going on instead of just what cycle it is on and I added two pole, two throw switches on all the automatic valves, that allow you to run it manually.

In general, automation slows down a process, because for instance if the longest recorded flood took a minute, the flood timer is set for a minute to cover the worst case scenario. I hope to fix that with the Mk V program with the new flood timer arrangement.

It will always be slightly slower, because of how long it takes a solenoid valve to close, pressure up the system, and the valves to operate, vis a vis just closing or opening a valve manually, so the principle driver and saving grace for the automation is that you can be doing something else while it takes a few minutes longer.

As far, as when to quit cycling, one brother put a light source on one side of his sight glass, and a sensor on the other to measure when the butane lost its color. I haven't heard back on how successful it was, but a place to start.

 

[nakadashi]

We have made some changes in the electronics and programming, but the overall system using pneumatic valves work well.

The Mk II's first customer didn't like the fact that you had to change the flood time with a PC and that she couldn't remember what was happening by watching the illuminated LED's.

The second automated Mk II owner actually built his own and I only helped him finish up the controls, but he had no such issues with the timer and lights. He did make changes to the final heat cycle on the pot and Bob added another relay for him, with a modified program. He has been in commercial operation for a couple of years now.

From the beta testing, we've change the overall design some and are incorporating those changes in the Mk V.

So far we have gone from pressure switches in the Mk II to a transducer in the new system. We have added a reset timer, so that instead of setting how long a flood you want, you push the flood button and when it overflows, you punch it again, and the system floods the rest of the columns that same period of time.

We've also added more to the annunciator board, so that tells what is going on instead of just what cycle it is on and I added two pole, two throw switches on all the automatic valves, that allow you to run it manually.

In general, automation slows down a process, because for instance if the longest recorded flood took a minute, the flood timer is set for a minute to cover the worst case scenario. I hope to fix that with the Mk V program with the new flood timer arrangement.

It will always be slightly slower, because of how long it takes a solenoid valve to close, pressure up the system, and the valves to operate, vis a vis just closing or opening a valve manually, so the principle driver and saving grace for the automation is that you can be doing something else while it takes a few minutes longer.

As far, as when to quit cycling, one brother put a light source on one side of his sight glass, and a sensor on the other to measure when the butane lost its color. I haven't heard back on how successful it was, but a place to start.

Wow, lots of progress since beta testing! I especially like how it can be manually operated now. One of my biggest fears as far as automation is that I will make a boneheaded mistake during shakedown or have a latent problem in the code with catastrophic result.

Is there no way to have the system automatically detect column flood times? For example, as a thermocouple mounted after the vent tube?

Dang, I thought I was onto something with the UV vis spectroscopy but it looks like someone has beat me to the punch! My only concern is that it may not adequately differentiate between desirables and undesirables because the sight glass on my manually operated MKIII isn't a real precise way to tell whats being extracted.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Wow, lots of progress since beta testing! I especially like how it can be manually operated now. One of my biggest fears as far as automation is that I will make a boneheaded mistake during shakedown or have a latent problem in the code with catastrophic result.

Is there no way to have the system automatically detect column flood times? For example, as a thermocouple mounted after the vent tube?

Dang, I thought I was onto something with the UV vis spectroscopy but it looks like someone has beat me to the punch! My only concern is that it may not adequately differentiate between desirables and undesirables because the sight glass on my manually operated MKIII isn't a real precise way to tell whats being extracted.

Actually, one of the biggest problems shaking out the Mk II was that I couldn't take over in the middle of a program, and correct the effects of mistakes, other than rebooting and starting over, or manually advancing the PLC program using a jumper to trip set points. I could have run it using the PLC, but when I'm in a hurry, I need action fast.

UV spectroscopy can be used to separate different constituents in a stream that has first been run through a chromatography column. We have a used system, alas with an obsolete light source, that directs the flow into different containers as its makeup changes.

Look at the fractionator in the background of the vacuum distillation experiment in the attached picture

Lots of ways to detect the flow, and we will no doubt be offering that, but first we want a rock solid automated control system from which to expand.

It has gone from a Panasonic PLC with a relay board and a jumble of spaghetti wiring, to a single chip on the relay board, eliminating the spaghetti and subsequent maintenance that can be associated with loose wires.

I just delivered the column heaters to the Mk V test sled, and they functioned fast and flawlessly. The columns now have a 2.5 W/in 24" X 12" Briskheat silicone heat mat strapped around them, controlled by a type K thermocouple in concert with a Mypin TA-4 digital self learning temperature controller and a Kodak 40A solid state relay.

Not only do they come up to heat within a few minutes, but they don't overshoot more than five degrees on the way up and settle back down to within a couple degrees of set point. The Mypins are Chinese and I picked them up for under $30 each, and got the US made Kodak relays for $5 each off ebay. I currently have the temperature set at 150F, but plan to experiment up to 250F.