Male clones transformed to Female to judge male smoking quality

[GreenintheThumb]

By the way, someone said there are no YY plants....I have had seed turn out to be all male. .

Did you run enough to "prove" it wasn't just a bad luck of the draw? I don't see how you'd get a seedset with all YY. Even if you take a male and reverse it and self it only 25% would theoretically be YY...Always wondered if they'd even grow...

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Out of interest did these come form a so called Backward hermie ? or a full on he/she rather than a female that showed male parts..

Kopite

I used males I have had for twenty years, they never showed female flowers ever.

Bongstar420

"My theory is that there are strong and weak females as well as strong and weak males with a few hermaphrodites, I want the stong female plants because they will generate more female plants over time. The resulting progeny will tolerate lots of abuse from their growers and still produce banna free flowers."

Not exactly sure what you mean but to me either a male or a female is "TRUE" meaning it will not show flowers of the opposite sex regardless of stress, or it is not and will show opposite sex flowers when exposed to stress. If you want progeny that are hermi free use parents that are "TRUE"
if the parents have the genes for hermaphrodite flowers they will pass on the genes to progeny even if recessive and unseen for a generation or two.
If you want only female use all female seeds, but be sure they were made with a TRUE female transformed to male and a TRUE female used to make the seeds. Otherwise you can still get hermis if the parents are not TRUE.
True female and males are not the same as natural females that give a higher percentage of females, like Original Haze, which gives 70% females quite often.
If you have a copy of the https://www.springerlink.com/content/r112tp5q2h650188/ paper "The influence of growth regulators absorbed by the root on sex expression in hemp plants" please post it to me. I did find it and posted it in my IC BIB
-SamS

 

[Tom Hill]

In Central America, farmers come across Mango trees that won't produce. Before they cut them down, they'll beat the hell out of the trunk with a baseball bat while yelling at it, warning the tree what's coming if it doesn't shape up. They'll keep this up for years before cutting the tree down, no shit, pretty funny to watch. I guess I'm wondering how extensive the testing is on these true female phenotypes, infinity seems to be the tests we could run. Until they are complete, I think we should refer to them as "strongly female" - as we do with many other plants. Further, how often is this true female completely homozygous for that which is believed by many to be a very complex trait in the end? Is there any reason at all to expect it to breed true for this trait any more often than say for example yield? -T

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Nothing comes easy Tom but just like yield it makes the most sense to select our "most true" and reject the rest, the same we do for yield and all the other complex traits we covet.

Sam how do you explain the increase in females you found in haze populations?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I don't know as they have no increase in hermis at all. In fact Original Haze is mostly free of inter-sex expression.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Female from male clone.

Female from male clone.

Here it is today:

 

[Tom Hill]

Hi GreenintheThumb,

But plenty comes easy, namely, traits that are under the control of major genes (Mendel). I agree with your Burbank style selection process but many breeders do argue that it makes more sense to postpone selecting for such traits until later generations when the likelihood of homozygous loci is higher.

Sam, my apologies for heading off topic and congratulations on what looks to be a very successful experiment. Are you yet able to categorize the individual in regards to terpene profile etc? -T

 

[love?]

If you have a copy of the http://www.springerlink.com/content/r112tp5q2h650188/ paper "The influence of growth regulators absorbed by the root on sex expression in hemp plants" please post it to me.
-SamS

Here it is. Sorry that I had to split into four separate files (Icmag has a max upload limit of 1MB for attachments).

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Sam
Have you prepared yourself for the ultimate cosmic joke? That you may hate the smoke from the selected males you've been using for years? Certainly it wouldn't matter too much considering how extensively they've been progeny tested, just had a funny image in my head of you hitting the herb and making a gag face. Are you planning on making some nice dry sift from the herb or are you going to taste her herbal style? Regardless it beats people smoking males, the poor bastards. Good luck, hope the rest of this experiment is smooth sailing.

 

[JeffSpicoli]

this is very interesting stuff, i cant wait to see how that one turns out for you Sam!

 

[Bongstar420]

Did you run enough to "prove" it wasn't just a bad luck of the draw? I don't see how you'd get a seedset with all YY. Even if you take a male and reverse it and self it only 25% would theoretically be YY...Always wondered if they'd even grow...

I know...the idea is that Cannabis is not determined by an XX/XY inheritance pattern. The odds of getting 6 XY's are extremly low, especially from one batch of seed.

I believe that what happened is that the female that produced the seed was a "weak" female and the male used for pollen was a "strong" male. The progeny resulting would then be a population that tends to turn out to be male.

I used males I have had for twenty years, they never showed female flowers ever.

Bongstar420

"My theory is that there are strong and weak females as well as strong and weak males with a few hermaphrodites, I want the stong female plants because they will generate more female plants over time. The resulting progeny will tolerate lots of abuse from their growers and still produce banna free flowers."

Not exactly sure what you mean but to me either a male or a female is "TRUE" meaning it will not show flowers of the opposite sex regardless of stress, or it is not and will show opposite sex flowers when exposed to stress. If you want progeny that are hermi free use parents that are "TRUE"
if the parents have the genes for hermaphrodite flowers they will pass on the genes to progeny even if recessive and unseen for a generation or two.
If you want only female use all female seeds, but be sure they were made with a TRUE female transformed to male and a TRUE female used to make the seeds. Otherwise you can still get hermis if the parents are not TRUE.
True female and males are not the same as natural females that give a higher percentage of females, like Original Haze, which gives 70% females quite often.
If you have a copy of the http://www.springerlink.com/content/r112tp5q2h650188/ paper "The influence of growth regulators absorbed by the root on sex expression in hemp plants" please post it to me.
-SamS

I know this. Hermaphrodism is a recessive trait though I think that there are several forms of the trait(s) floating around. Transforming a '"true" sex would be mimicing the hermie trait through hormone augmentation (IE gibberellic acid and silver nitrate). I have only seen a "true" hermie one time, the rest were mildly transient. The hermie trait results in a certain hormanal profile in the plant. I do believe there are certain genes that will only produce this mixed hormonal profile under stressful conditions and others that will under all conditions. I believe this is why we observe some Cannabis strains that are completly monoecious and the rest that are diecious with transient moneciousism.


Sorry, I do not have a copy of that paper. Abstracts are good enough for me. If you get a subscription, that company has many good papers.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

I know...the idea is that Cannabis is not determined by an XX/XY inheritance pattern.
The odds of getting 6 XY's are extremly low, especially from one batch of seed.

Well cannabis is determined by an XX/XY system, it's been tested check for some abstracts
The odds of getting 6/20 instead of 10/20 is not significant. Trust me, plenty of people have bought 2 packs of seeds and only gotten 6 females. I say luck of the draw, you want to redefine your conception of cannabis sex from this?

I believe that what happened is that the female that produced the seed was a "weak" female and the male used for pollen was a "strong" male. The progeny resulting would then be a population that tends to turn out to be male.

I don't see it. I don't understand it in Sam's OH but he was running big numbers not making his judgments off a sample of 20.

. The hermie trait results in a certain hormanal profile in the plant. I do believe there are certain genes that will only produce this mixed hormonal profile under stressful conditions and others that will under all conditions. I believe this is why we observe some Cannabis strains that are completly monoecious and the rest that are diecious with transient moneciousism.

All this seems incredibly logical to me.

 

[kopite]

@ bong

I believe that what happened is that the female that produced the seed was a "weak" female and the male used for pollen was a "strong" male. The progeny resulting would then be a population that tends to turn out to be male.

can you please define "weak" to me this implies xxxy for the female(although this usually shows phenotypically as a male ??), and xyy for the male that is "strong"

I know this. Hermaphrodism is a recessive trait though I think that there are several forms of the trait(s) floating around. Transforming a '"true" sex would be mimicing the hermie trait through hormone augmentation (IE gibberellic acid and silver nitrate). I have only seen a "true" hermie one time, the rest were mildly transient. The hermie trait results in a certain hormanal profile in the plant. I do believe there are certain genes that will only produce this mixed hormonal profile under stressful conditions and others that will under all conditions. I believe this is why we observe some Cannabis strains that are completly monoecious and the rest that are diecious with transient moneciousism.

I hate the fact that all cannabis is classed as dioecious to me sub-dioecious is better suited...

I believe a Androdioecious (all male) is possible its just rare, I also think it has to come from a herm that occurs naturally...

A lot of what I have looked at relates to Silene species of plant which is close to Cannabis....

anyway this YY talk is not specific to this thread... which is about transforming a male to a fem for judgement... and to me will be very useful... on with the show, I'm made up SamS has done this

Kopite

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Sam, my apologies for heading off topic and congratulations on what looks to be a very successful experiment. Are you yet able to categorize the individual in regards to terpene profile etc? -T

Not yet, but it should be interesting. To me it looks like the bracts will be smaller then normal.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Sam
Have you prepared yourself for the ultimate cosmic joke? That you may hate the smoke from the selected males you've been using for years? Certainly it wouldn't matter too much considering how extensively they've been progeny tested, just had a funny image in my head of you hitting the herb and making a gag face. Are you planning on making some nice dry sift from the herb or are you going to taste her herbal style? Regardless it beats people smoking males, the poor bastards. Good luck, hope the rest of this experiment is smooth sailing.

No I am not worried, the male has been used to make zillions of hybrids I did like. And that is what is important, progeny.
It sure could be useful with new untested male clones.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I know...the idea is that Cannabis is not determined by an XX/XY inheritance pattern. The odds of getting 6 XY's are extremly low, especially from one batch of seed.
I believe that what happened is that the female that produced the seed was a "weak" female and the male used for pollen was a "strong" male. The progeny resulting would then be a population that tends to turn out to be male.
I know this. Hermaphrodism is a recessive trait though I think that there are several forms of the trait(s) floating around. Transforming a '"true" sex would be mimicing the hermie trait through hormone augmentation (IE gibberellic acid and silver nitrate). I have only seen a "true" hermie one time, the rest were mildly transient. The hermie trait results in a certain hormanal profile in the plant. I do believe there are certain genes that will only produce this mixed hormonal profile under stressful conditions and others that will under all conditions. I believe this is why we observe some Cannabis strains that are completly monoecious and the rest that are diecious with transient moneciousism.

I am curious how you decided that Hermaphrodites are recessive? As far as I know there are no naturally monoecious wild varieties they are all created by man from individual plants that were intersexed. I have seen hundreds of drug clones that were inter-sexed, mostly females with genes from traditional sinsemilla areas, the local farmers kill all real males and any seed made came from a hermi male flower on a female, every year the hermi load increases in the population if the farmers use seeds that he found in sinsemilla. They need to use seeds made with real males and real females to get inter-sex free plants. I know when I use for example a Thai female with inter-sexed traits most of the female progeny have inter-sexed tendencies. That don't seem very recessive.
I believe that Cannabis is controlled by a XX/XY system that can be overridden by stress if the plants has the genes for inter-sexed expression, if not then stress will not turn a true female to male, chemicals yes, but that don't happen in nature does it? Some inter-sexed plants like Thai's will show regardless if stressed or not.
Also inter-sexed plants can have several different mechanisms that are used to achieve inter-sexuality, including inter-sexual genes, to broken, unfunctioning, or missing genes. A test using RAPD marker genes like what is used for both male sex MADC1, and now RAPD markers for female sex as well, would help a lot, the markers needed would be for inter-sexed genes.
I also believe most Cannabis has inter-sexed genes in them to some degree.
-SamS

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Sam have you considered selfing your reversed male to see what comes of the YY? I personally don't think it'd be too useful but you seem to have a knack for being the first to do things. May as well tag your name on the YY mystery as well

 

[Mr. Stinky]

is it possible to get fertile YY seeds? i had read (more internet BS....) that an X chromosome is necessary for fertility. maybe im late to the show here and missed this somewhere? ive had lots sof males throw hairs, but ive never just let them go to see if they make fertile seed.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I did leave a few of the male branches untreated and I already hit the female branches with the pollen. These are selfed, the male clone was transformed to female a few branches were not and were left male. It might be better to test YY with a male transformed to female and a different variety male rather then selfing as selfing also reduces vigor making germination of any YY even harder. But I have this ready so I tried it.
-SamS

 

[Bongstar420]

Well cannabis is determined by an XX/XY system, it's been tested check for some abstracts
The odds of getting 6/20 instead of 10/20 is not significant. Trust me, plenty of people have bought 2 packs of seeds and only gotten 6 females. I say luck of the draw, you want to redefine your conception of cannabis sex from this?

The environment has a significant effect on sex ratios in Cannabis spp. This is not luck of the draw as much as one might think.

I don't see it. I don't understand it in Sam's OH but he was running big numbers not making his judgments off a sample of 20.

The 6/20 number is a reference to the sex ratio that I observed after several applications of BAP. This ratio contradicts the understanding that BAP induces higher then normal female/male ratios.

My observation for an all male population was 6/6 plants being male. The odds of observing this in a pure XY inheritance pattern is ~.5^6 or ~1.6%. I figure I had odds of .5-3% of finding 6 males of 6 plants from "random" bag seed of a single cross. My real odds were probably closer to .5% because, if I recall correctly, I grew another unrelated cross along with the all male population and got over 50% female. The environment was an unlikely factor in the development of 6/6 males.

I think that Cannabis spp. is better represented by an x1x1,x2x2 xx/xX denotation or something like that. I am not disputing a sex chrosome that caries a male gene that is not subject to recombination exists. I am disputing how we reference it. The Cannabis sex chromosome is actually bigger then the rest of the 19, not smaller. Hence, it cannot be considered a Y unless Y means male chromosome that can be influenced by recombinant genes. I think xx/xX is more befitting because the male chromosome in Cannabis spp. is larger then the rest, not smaller. Also the x1,x2, etc... would reference modifier genes in the autosomes that do exist in the world wide gene pool.

Anyways, I still think that it would be adventageous if one were to apply some BAP and Auxins in combination with the Ethephon.

Also, one might just get some fertile seed off of their male and grow those out. The resulting selfed seed should give a fair sample of the likely recombinants and the reletive homogenosity of its genome.