am i talking out of my arse or what??
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Male clones transformed to Female to judge male smoking quality
- Thread starter Sam_Skunkman
- Start date
You need to read up about inheritance and then ask the questions.
Read a textbook or try Rob Clarke's Marijuana Botany.
Or try here.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=49499&page=1&pp=15
-SamS
Read a textbook or try Rob Clarke's Marijuana Botany.
Or try here.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=49499&page=1&pp=15
-SamS
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JWP
Active member
aa is where i should go for help with my drinking problem..
now this processed crap didnt wake me up. i think its had the opposite affect
But macas did provide me with an analogy to desribe this "stacking" technique.
At the drive through checking out the fresh tallent. Was thinking "if only they has there moms working side by side with them" then i would have true insight as to which were the real keepers and which were just cute while young lol.
Thats what this testing the male process is going to do. Give us a sneek peek at the progeny
Definitely ready for bed now lol
now this processed crap didnt wake me up. i think its had the opposite affect
But macas did provide me with an analogy to desribe this "stacking" technique.
At the drive through checking out the fresh tallent. Was thinking "if only they has there moms working side by side with them" then i would have true insight as to which were the real keepers and which were just cute while young lol.
Thats what this testing the male process is going to do. Give us a sneek peek at the progeny
Definitely ready for bed now lol
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suzycremecheese
Active member
Sam,
it sounds like a great idea... a good place to start narrowing the field in terms of potency, but I don't think it will account for combining ability. If you manage to do some legitimate studies comparing the male flowers with the daughters they produce that will be some ground breaking work. Can't wait to see it...
That is a technique commonly used in asparagus breeding. The male is the desired sex in asparagus production so breeders find a superior YY male and cross it with a superior female so that all resulting seeds are male. As you mentioned it remains to be seen if YY males would even survive/ germ/ reproduce in cannabis. I imagine it would be easy enough to figure out by sexing a thousand plants and checking your male/female ratio... who knows YY males may even look different than normal males.
Producing YY males may have countless uses. In breeding and evaluating genotypes... etc.
it sounds like a great idea... a good place to start narrowing the field in terms of potency, but I don't think it will account for combining ability. If you manage to do some legitimate studies comparing the male flowers with the daughters they produce that will be some ground breaking work. Can't wait to see it...
Sam said:
That is a technique commonly used in asparagus breeding. The male is the desired sex in asparagus production so breeders find a superior YY male and cross it with a superior female so that all resulting seeds are male. As you mentioned it remains to be seen if YY males would even survive/ germ/ reproduce in cannabis. I imagine it would be easy enough to figure out by sexing a thousand plants and checking your male/female ratio... who knows YY males may even look different than normal males.
Producing YY males may have countless uses. In breeding and evaluating genotypes... etc.
S
Scoobs
Right on Sam! 
I love the idea of turning males to females and evaluating the results. Could save tons of time on breeding.
But how does one go about transforming males into females exactly? Should I start saving banana peels?
I love the idea of turning males to females and evaluating the results. Could save tons of time on breeding.
But how does one go about transforming males into females exactly? Should I start saving banana peels?
Read the first post again...
-SamS
-SamS
So today I sprayed a male clone with ethephon, 1ml to 1 liter of water.
I will see what happens...
-SamS
I will see what happens...
-SamS
JWP
Active member
Good work, got the ball rolling 
lol it must be nice to just happen to have a male on hand. a spare one at that. i imagine you have a few, maybe more than a few.
for me a male is at least 4 weeks away.
i know you must have some sort of plan in mind. maybe 5 male cuts with up to 5ml with 1ml increments. a penny for your thoughts
lol it must be nice to just happen to have a male on hand. a spare one at that. i imagine you have a few, maybe more than a few.
for me a male is at least 4 weeks away.
i know you must have some sort of plan in mind. maybe 5 male cuts with up to 5ml with 1ml increments. a penny for your thoughts
Pitt Bully
Member
XX x XX = XX
XX x XY = XX or XY
XY x XY = XX, XY or YY
Then, YY x XX = only XY
No???
XX x XY = XX or XY
XY x XY = XX, XY or YY
Then, YY x XX = only XY
No???
The XX and YY are each 25% of the total, XY is 50%.
Yes, if you want only male seeds. And for your info YY male seeds are very hard to make and even harder to breed with. And you need a way to confirm they are YY.
But I don't think you want all male seeds anyway....
-SamS
Yes, if you want only male seeds. And for your info YY male seeds are very hard to make and even harder to breed with. And you need a way to confirm they are YY.
But I don't think you want all male seeds anyway....
-SamS
I've been doing this everytime I've released male pollen for the last 5 years, and yes it does work... although you'll have to tweek the spray regimen.
The ethylene effect is transient, so repeated spraying is necessary to sustain pistillate floral development. The pistils on transformed plants are typically shorter than on non-reverted 'true' females.
I've already created a couple of all male seedlines from the process...
Here's an old pic I took years ago... back in '04.
Sam, are you using pure ethephon for the dilution, or a product like Pistil or Florel? What is the final ppm of the working spray solution you are using? I believe your working solution might not be concentrated enough to induce reversal.
-Chimera
The ethylene effect is transient, so repeated spraying is necessary to sustain pistillate floral development. The pistils on transformed plants are typically shorter than on non-reverted 'true' females.
I've already created a couple of all male seedlines from the process...
Here's an old pic I took years ago... back in '04.
Sam, are you using pure ethephon for the dilution, or a product like Pistil or Florel? What is the final ppm of the working spray solution you are using? I believe your working solution might not be concentrated enough to induce reversal.
-Chimera
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JWP
Active member
The word travels fast. Thank god for the interweb.
Chimera, do you smoke the buds from the plants sprayed with ethephon to test for potency? or hash from them? or maybe even just use this technique for selection of traits that can be identified by vision/smell etc?
Also do you notice in the progeny tested a clear dominance in the selected traits. I mean is it clear that the technique works.
Edit: Do you note ratios of the wanted traits in the progeny. Maybe the whole process isnt as clear cut as i envisioned.
Sorry for bombarding you with all these questions. It isnt so much the process that intrests me rather the end result. The maths
Chimera, do you smoke the buds from the plants sprayed with ethephon to test for potency? or hash from them? or maybe even just use this technique for selection of traits that can be identified by vision/smell etc?
Also do you notice in the progeny tested a clear dominance in the selected traits. I mean is it clear that the technique works.
Edit: Do you note ratios of the wanted traits in the progeny. Maybe the whole process isnt as clear cut as i envisioned.
Sorry for bombarding you with all these questions. It isnt so much the process that intrests me rather the end result. The maths
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999 ppm is I think, the same as 1 ml to a liter of water. This is what I used, 1ml. It is pure ethephon from Bayer, but it is a liquid so it is not actually pure. And that will screw up my numbers, but I did a start anyway. Sounds like the real ppm will be maybe half what I thought?
Ethrel (ethephon 480 g as/L) is what the label says.
What % or ppm did you use and any problems with males that were used to make all male lines? Did you use YY males? Do you have any YY males maintained?
Did the females produced have generally good characteristics to judge from, by smoking?
Farout that some one has done it and it works easy, or is it hard?
How often should I spray? At what point in flowering is best? Before, during or what? I will spray once a week.
I sprayed a male clone with two tall upright branches and I only sprayed one of the branches, half the plant, is that ok? Or is it better to spray the whole plant? If it works and the male clone turns female, I will try and pollinate the she/male and see what happens. I have no interest in an all male seed line, but it is fun to see how things can be made to do the most amazing things.
Excuse all the questions,
You can PM me the answers if you prefer.
-SamS
Ethrel (ethephon 480 g as/L) is what the label says.
What % or ppm did you use and any problems with males that were used to make all male lines? Did you use YY males? Do you have any YY males maintained?
Did the females produced have generally good characteristics to judge from, by smoking?
Farout that some one has done it and it works easy, or is it hard?
How often should I spray? At what point in flowering is best? Before, during or what? I will spray once a week.
I sprayed a male clone with two tall upright branches and I only sprayed one of the branches, half the plant, is that ok? Or is it better to spray the whole plant? If it works and the male clone turns female, I will try and pollinate the she/male and see what happens. I have no interest in an all male seed line, but it is fun to see how things can be made to do the most amazing things.
Excuse all the questions,
You can PM me the answers if you prefer.
-SamS
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suzycremecheese
Active member
Chim,
What percentage of the YY seeds are viable?
What percentage reach healthy sexual maturity and are fertile?
What are the male seed lines like that result from the YY x XX?
What percentage of the YY seeds are viable?
What percentage reach healthy sexual maturity and are fertile?
What are the male seed lines like that result from the YY x XX?
yy males......an........ xx females
i think there is a future in this
i think there is a future in this
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JWP
Active member
Far out allright, to think that this has been going on for the last 5 years. I wonder who else has been doing it.
I wonder if Chimera just started out with this method to make male beans then it evolved into a way to test for regular breeding.
Also wondering if the males are stress tested and true males are used. It may be a lot harder to turn a true male.
Well if its been going on for this long Chimera must have a load of data. Hope he is willing to share.
SamS is the male your using true? Or you just grabed the first one you could get your hands on. I know you didnt have time for a stress test.
This subject is so interesting. So many questions. So few answers. Ground breaking stff
I wonder if Chimera just started out with this method to make male beans then it evolved into a way to test for regular breeding.
Also wondering if the males are stress tested and true males are used. It may be a lot harder to turn a true male.
Well if its been going on for this long Chimera must have a load of data. Hope he is willing to share.
SamS is the male your using true? Or you just grabed the first one you could get your hands on. I know you didnt have time for a stress test.
This subject is so interesting. So many questions. So few answers. Ground breaking stff
Sorry for the slow reply, I was up on the mountain busy with harvest all day yesterday and am literally heading out the door right now to get on it... going to be a long week. 
Let me pass on a couple of tips now to keep your project moving, then I will try and address the rest of the questions when I have a bit more time...
I should say right off the bat this this method for producing pistills was not my discovery; it came from our good friend and research colleague hyb/eXe.... gotta give credit where it's due.
Ethephon @ 750 ppm sprayed once/week for three weeks. The effect was such as to produce pistills enough for making seeds, which was my only goal- to create male selfs and male:male seeds for use in breeding/research- ie towards the development of pure XY lines. The above mentionned regimen is sufficient to that end.
I have not used the technique for testing males via their 'pistillate characteristics' in the purest sense, although the plants clearly showed 'pistillate characterists' in the appearance of their resin profiles/smell etc.
I imagine continual application up to 6 weeks for most WLD indica individuals would be sufficient to produce femlae 'buds' on the male plant but further research is clearly in order. The plants I was working with never recieved enough light/space/energy to produce buds and thus truly evaluate the females by smoking.
Once the plants were were fertilized I stopped the applications of ethephon (ethylene as a primary of the 7 plant hormones has many many functions in the plant and I didn't want to interfere with seed development). Of course the fertilization dramatically slowed further floral development as the plants directed their energy into the devellopment of seed. I suspect continued applications combined with more light and space would produce larger floral clusters than shown in the included pic (below).
The 'booseted' regimen would surely produce enough floral mass for use in GC/MS applications for Cannabinoid and Terpinoid analysis quantification/analysis, as you can see even the seeded pistillate clusters produced enough mass for GC testing.
I'll be back to address the rest of the questions post-harvy.
-Chimera
Let me pass on a couple of tips now to keep your project moving, then I will try and address the rest of the questions when I have a bit more time...
I should say right off the bat this this method for producing pistills was not my discovery; it came from our good friend and research colleague hyb/eXe.... gotta give credit where it's due.
Ethephon @ 750 ppm sprayed once/week for three weeks. The effect was such as to produce pistills enough for making seeds, which was my only goal- to create male selfs and male:male seeds for use in breeding/research- ie towards the development of pure XY lines. The above mentionned regimen is sufficient to that end.
I have not used the technique for testing males via their 'pistillate characteristics' in the purest sense, although the plants clearly showed 'pistillate characterists' in the appearance of their resin profiles/smell etc.
I imagine continual application up to 6 weeks for most WLD indica individuals would be sufficient to produce femlae 'buds' on the male plant but further research is clearly in order. The plants I was working with never recieved enough light/space/energy to produce buds and thus truly evaluate the females by smoking.
Once the plants were were fertilized I stopped the applications of ethephon (ethylene as a primary of the 7 plant hormones has many many functions in the plant and I didn't want to interfere with seed development). Of course the fertilization dramatically slowed further floral development as the plants directed their energy into the devellopment of seed. I suspect continued applications combined with more light and space would produce larger floral clusters than shown in the included pic (below).
The 'booseted' regimen would surely produce enough floral mass for use in GC/MS applications for Cannabinoid and Terpinoid analysis quantification/analysis, as you can see even the seeded pistillate clusters produced enough mass for GC testing.
I'll be back to address the rest of the questions post-harvy.
-Chimera
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S
Scoobs
Thanks for posting the information and your observations Chimera. Much appreciated.
Did you stress the males beforehand to trigger intersex genes? If yes what method did you find worked the best?
Thanks for sharing with the community.
Did you stress the males beforehand to trigger intersex genes? If yes what method did you find worked the best?
Thanks for sharing with the community.
JWP
Active member
Yes thank you Chimera..
Well that just about answered all of my questions. So you can scap those from the list.
Looks like your still the pioneer when it comes to using this technique for the purpose of regular beeding sam.
Makes me want to sprout every bean i have to find good males lol.
In theory its great. but the reality of it is i can do maybe 4 plants max at a time. realistically i would have to pop 100 beans and get about 15 true males of which maybe 3 or 4 would make the cut on their male characteristics alone. Then maybe one wold stand out when tested with this technique.
But i dont want to narrow the gene pool down that much. So i would have to do 500 beans for maybe 5 keepers.
When i weigh it up with effort/reward normaly i would think no way....
But im seriously considering something like this. A lot of work for sure.
The aussie outdoor season has started so... hmmm
Edit: lol i have to wake the funk up. this will take at least a year to plan and prepare with my limited resourses. I will just sit back and watch how progress goes here for now.
Well that just about answered all of my questions. So you can scap those from the list.
Looks like your still the pioneer when it comes to using this technique for the purpose of regular beeding sam.
Makes me want to sprout every bean i have to find good males lol.
In theory its great. but the reality of it is i can do maybe 4 plants max at a time. realistically i would have to pop 100 beans and get about 15 true males of which maybe 3 or 4 would make the cut on their male characteristics alone. Then maybe one wold stand out when tested with this technique.
But i dont want to narrow the gene pool down that much. So i would have to do 500 beans for maybe 5 keepers.
When i weigh it up with effort/reward normaly i would think no way....
But im seriously considering something like this. A lot of work for sure.
The aussie outdoor season has started so... hmmm
Edit: lol i have to wake the funk up. this will take at least a year to plan and prepare with my limited resourses. I will just sit back and watch how progress goes here for now.
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ahead of the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!
