Local materials

[40degsouth]

Hi everyone, l hope you're all well.
Very interesting experiment Microbe Man, re. Boron. I've recently been trying to eradicate Argentinien Fire Ants with a Boron/honey mix, with varying results, mainly due, l think, to the "super colonies" they form?? They are great farmers and tend meticulously to aphids and citrus scale.
I'm half way through stretch at the moment and the caterpillars and grasshoppers have found the culinary delights of my plants, not to mention the local furry mammals that have been a real pest this year. I've been looking for a one spray fix for all of these for a very long time and to throw fungal infections into the mix is a gorilla grower's dream. I'll be waiting to hear your results.
One experiment I'm a bit excited about is using a weekly, maybe twice weekly, salt water foliar spray for powdery mildew and another leaf spot disease that appears to be endemic to my R&D patch. From my research, as strong as a 1:25 (sea water to water) can be used for a fertiliser and up to 1:50 for a weaker application.
My anicdotal experience is that plants near the sea do better than those inland perhaps due to plant health with the trace elements from the sea mist.
Is there anyone who has done the experiment??
BTW. a concrete mix of 1:5 is 25 MPA (a unit measurement of crushing strength) so your 1:3, even with a sand medium, is very strong.
Cheers,
40

 

[Hookahhead]

Hi 40. For caterpillars and grasshoppers look into Bacillus thuringiensis, Metarhizium anisopliae, and Beauveria bassiana products.

Saltwater that’s been collected, left a day to “ferment”, and diluted is one part of KNF.

https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/SA-9.pdf

 

[40degsouth]

Thanks Hookahhead, your reply is very much appreciated.
I've been studying Korean Natural Farming for quite a while now but only using a few of the inputs in my grows such as charred bone and charred egg shells. I've also used BT with great results if you can do it once or twice weekly due to its photo sensitivity. I've found "passing traffic", that walk in, once the optimum killing period has passed can be a problem. Bud rot caterpillars, borers, are my biggest problem pest during flower and PM the biggest fungal problem.
My hypothesis is that the salt in the water will dry out the spores and maybe even kill off infection and be held within the flower to present future infection. Like sulphur, there can be no mutation of the disease to become resistant to the input.
From my research, there is over 60 elements in salt water that can not be found on the land, including significant amounts of silica and there is a long history of it being used as a fertiliser.
I know Tom Hill was fundamentally opposed to "salt" inputs and believed an organic soil functioned better below a certain ppm.
In my %100 gorilla spots that l may only be able to get to once a month l need something special; something that will stick to the leaf and continue to work for a longer period of time and will be distasteful for larger animals and insects alike; Microbe Man's onto something IMHO.
Grasshoppers aren't as big a problem and l really don't have to worry about them. l think the SIR response from the plant is advantageous once they've had a bit of a chew and the beneficials they attract, mantis, are fantastic.
Cheers,
40.

 

[Microbeman]

Hi 40. For caterpillars and grasshoppers look into Bacillus thuringiensis, Metarhizium anisopliae, and Beauveria bassiana products.

Saltwater that’s been collected, left a day to “ferment”, and diluted is one part of KNF.

https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/SA-9.pdf

Have you used BT successfully with these?

 

[Hookahhead]

BT is the one product I can’t make myself and haven’t found locally, that I really wish I could get. Caterpillars seems to be one thing it’s highly effective against according to the literature I’ve seen. Budworms/caterpillars are a problem for me as well. I ended up building a “screen house” to protect the plants from the larger pests. Obviously this isn’t ideal for spots in the bush. Maybe some kind of netting? I still have to check the plants every few days and occasionally spot a caterpillar. I haven’t seen any grasshoppers and shield beetles inside yet.

I definitely think the saltwater is beneficial to overall plant health when used in moderation.

Pro tip: the caterpillar poop on lower buds is usually what alerts me to their presence.

 

[paradoxlost]

Thanks Hookahhead, your reply is very much appreciated.
I've been studying Korean Natural Farming for quite a while now but only using a few of the inputs in my grows such as charred bone and charred egg shells. I've also used BT with great results if you can do it once or twice weekly due to its photo sensitivity. I've found "passing traffic", that walk in, once the optimum killing period has passed can be a problem. Bud rot caterpillars, borers, are my biggest problem pest during flower and PM the biggest fungal problem.
My hypothesis is that the salt in the water will dry out the spores and maybe even kill off infection and be held within the flower to present future infection. Like sulphur, there can be no mutation of the disease to become resistant to the input.
From my research, there is over 60 elements in salt water that can not be found on the land, including significant amounts of silica and there is a long history of it being used as a fertiliser.
I know Tom Hill was fundamentally opposed to "salt" inputs and believed an organic soil functioned better below a certain ppm.
In my %100 gorilla spots that l may only be able to get to once a month l need something special; something that will stick to the leaf and continue to work for a longer period of time and will be distasteful for larger animals and insects alike; Microbe Man's onto something IMHO.
Grasshoppers aren't as big a problem and l really don't have to worry about them. l think the SIR response from the plant is advantageous once they've had a bit of a chew and the beneficials they attract, mantis, are fantastic.
Cheers,
40.

What elements can you find in sea water that you can't find on land?

 

[40degsouth]

Hi Microbe Man,
I'm just wondering if you have any links to your boron fungicide recipe?? If not is the %0.2 "safe"?? Is this why you're trying to get your courage up to apply it?? Do you think that a "sticker and/or spreader" would aid in efficiency or perhaps not necessarily.
I'm pretty sure I'm about to go to war with botrytis for another year, tiny yellow spots that turn into narcotic lesions overnight with moisture and spreads like wildfire. I tried to get it tested but the results were inconclusive.
Thanks,
40

 

[Microbeman]

Hi Microbe Man,
I'm just wondering if you have any links to your boron fungicide recipe?? If not is the %0.2 "safe"?? Is this why you're trying to get your courage up to apply it?? Do you think that a "sticker and/or spreader" would aid in efficiency or perhaps not necessarily.
I'm pretty sure I'm about to go to war with botrytis for another year, tiny yellow spots that turn into narcotic lesions overnight with moisture and spreads like wildfire. I tried to get it tested but the results were inconclusive.
Thanks,
40

We did one application 2 days ago and no immediate results in fungal remission were observed yet. I mixed 6 ml in 3 liters of water. We will check tomorrow for insect mortality and re-apply maybe stepping up to 0.3%
Have you tried Streptomyces - Actinovate and Trichoderma - Root Sield? I used these with 60 to 80% effectiveness previously. I cannot yet find them where I am.
We also found a watery extract of knotweed had suppressive effect on fungal pathogens.

 

[40degsouth]

Hey Microbe Man thanks very much for your reply.
What type of Boron are you using?? I believe the laundry type is far stronger than the elemental, in garden nurseries???
I've also been thinking that if an effective foliar dosage can be found then, due to uptake, maybe it could work as a systemic??
This foe is quite unusual in that it seems site specific and highly resistant; infected cuts don't present in other locations, leading me to believe the salt water may have some sort of beneficial, preventative action.
Two years ago l sprayed Bordeaux to the point it became toxic to some of the plants and this didn't even touch the infection. In the off season l studied plant pathogens and effective treatments and came up with an IPM that revolved around trichoderma, early and sulphur, later.
I sprayed the trichoderma liberally twice a month to no avail, initially but the sulphur spray, every three days, worked much better and alowed me to take all the plants to harvest; this didn't kill it and was more effective on some plants than others. I worried about the soil fungi during this time though.
I have tried to find Actinovate here and now you remind me, l believe it is available under another name. Giant knotweed is an invasive species and not here.
I've been over to the "Gorillas With Leaf Spot Disease" thread and tried other sources for enlightenment and cure but there is just so little information and so many mutating pathogens. In fact, during my research, l came across some studies that have shown an exponential rise of fungal spores, in the atmosphere, over the last twenty years. This means that an infection at your location, that makes the stratosphere, could, potentially, cause infection at my location, it's a global problem.
I'd really like some of the "big tree" growers to post up their IPM's in the "Outdoor" thread because their plants always look amazing and disease free; how do you do it??
Flowering has started and I've got another seven to ten days of stretch, two days of rain is on its way. I noticed the pathogen starting to present on some plants so l'm off to get some salt water and maybe, some bread yeast for a foliar??
I'll be waiting with bated breath for an update on your experiment Microbe Man and I'll let you all know how effective the salt water spray is.
Cheers everyone,
40

 

[Microbeman]

40deg; Just a quick note. The best form of boric acid is not the borax but the refined as I posted earlier on - H3BO3
This is the form assimilated.

I buy it at the corner hardware store for about $1/pound.

I'm beginning to lose optimism with this experiment but I will persist at 0.5% on Monday/Tuesday

[A friend of mine was a big commercial flower producer; cala lilies and hydrangeas; 1 acre greenhouse and outdoor beds. He got an erwinia infection. The local AG department said it was unbeatable; that he had to remove all his soil and plants and replace. He had super rare lilies. He began applying aerated compost tea; built a 5000 gallon brewer; he pumped it through his irrigation system every week; the other farmers made fun of him but he persisted; it took 6 months but he beat back the infection and something glorious happened; his flowers grew more vigorously and more beautiful than ever before; the other farmers started asking what his secret was]

Nothing takes the place of persistence when pursuing a good work.

The way I had greater success with Trichoderma was to germinate it overnight before applying. I put it in an airlift bioreactor with non-chlorinated water and 0.3 to 0.5% molasses. You can do this in a bucket stirring periodically. It germinated in 12 to 24 hrs.
This technique is also used by Paul Stamets for mushroom spores.

EDIT: Forgot - no improvement with 0.3+%

 

[Rico Swazi]

so your friend was using local microbes to fight the pathogens that circle the earth trying to gain a foothold to ruin our crops....


how clever


from 40degsouth

some studies that have shown an exponential rise of fungal spores, in the atmosphere, over the last twenty years. This means that an infection at your location, that makes the stratosphere, could, potentially, cause infection at my location, it's a global problem.

 

[Microbeman]

Seed harvest

Seed harvest

2nd generation; popular with gringos - old timey Michoacán/Jalisco

 

[Microbeman]

The most potent cayenne I have ever encountered; I was sitting at the table harvesting the seeds and a young woman cleaning in the other room began wheezing and coughing. We both thought it could not be from the peppers because there was no detectable aroma. I discontinued as a precaution.

Gradually her coughing settled. A short time later I absently scratched the end of my nose and fairly quickly my nostrils were burning. She moved past the pile of peppers on the table and began coughing again. I then covered them. In about 15 minutes after touching my nose, I could feel warmth coursing through my entire body. Totally wild...never experienced anything like it.

 

[Microbeman]

Compost harvest

Compost harvest

Static one year old compost; primarily brown leaves small sticks and green weeds. 2 full bins from 3x3x3 area contained with chicken wire.

If we were thermally composting we would expect more degradation of woody debris.

Edit; oops actually 3 full bins

 

[h.h.]

Mini Hugel logs.

It looks more finished than any compost I usually use.
Number one reason is laziness. I rarely feel like turning compost.

My number one excuse, right or wrong, is that it provides a long term food source as it breaks down. The sticks serve as nutrient batteries. They stay moist as the soil dries. They provide anchoring points. For whatever reason anyway, roots tend to cling to them.

 

[40degsouth]

Hi everyone, l hope you're all well.
I received my first private message today, without mentioning any names, l would like to say "thank you" for your reply. I should also say l haven't worked out how to reply privately yet so, without clogging up the thread, yes indeed it could be leaf septoria and l have studied it. Thank you for the recommendation of Purple Satellite as a resistant cultivar.
Rico, it's a very interesting research topic, "fungal spores in the biosphere" but something l didn't mention was the fact that the increase is, in part, due to advances in science, such as an increased ability to capture, identity and culture specific fungi so, l hope l haven't opened my mouth to change feet by leaving out swathes of methodology and pages and pages of research.
Thanks Microbe Man for your reply, as always, l apologise for asking you to reiterate information you've already posted earlier in the thread, re. assimilated boron, l missed it. I do have a touch of lisdexia so written information doesn't always make it all the way in.
It would also be remiss of me not to thank you for my missing piece of the trichoderma puzzle, re. activation. The nursery told me to add it to water and spray it on. The nurseryman did tell me they have basically overcome curly leaf with applications on stone fruit.
Anyway, l did build myself a brewer out of a 44 gallon drum, a 12v live bait airator and a 12v deck wash pump that has enough pressure to easily reach the top of a plant that is 15 feet off the ground.
They say necessity is the mother of all invention and this was inspired by your work and information sharing. You along with the early posters in the "Growing Large Plants Outdoors" thread took my thoughts and growing in a totally different direction.
Do you think brown sugar would work in place of unsulphured molasses because it's near impossible to get here however sulphured molasses is cheap and abundant.
Now to the business end, l have held off on the salt water sprays because the bread yeast foliar spray has been, potentially, more successful on the infection at my site.
It's been a bit over two weeks since the last spray, which consisted of half a kilo of sugar and one sachet of yeast in 20 litres of water which was alowed to sit for 24 hours without disturbance after initial mixing. Since this spray there has been very little incidence or spread of the infection even with rain events and low dew points. I'm doing a follow up spray today to observe what happens in the next two weeks.
I should also give some insight into my methodology, for context, so as a controll l have three Goji clones going which are susceptible to the infection and all the rest of the seed plants l have going were crossed into a Black Dog mother that was basically impervious to the disease and any other fungal infections, so these plants could have an above average genetic resistance to start with.
I haven't done any foliar feedings throughout the season to ensure I'm not inadvertently brewing or feeding the disease. I have also avoided high nitrogen feeds to eliminate the possibility of weakened leaf cells.
I have, however, been alternating between a weekly Korean Natural Farming calcium, foliar, spray and a potassium silicate spray in an attempt to bolster cellular strength and resilience.
I've also been wondering if anyone has done any experimentation with chlorine or sodium benzoate (E211) foliars for fungal suppression??
As a side note, Microbe Man, l remember reading something in one of Steve Soloman's books about a zinc foliar spray to suppress powdery mildew on cucurbits. Perhaps someone has done this experiment also??
Cheers,
40

 

[Hookahhead]

Finally found an awesome farmer selling worms. I had to drive about an hour and half to get them. He also sells high quality (fed primarily manure), screened castings. I got a kilo of worms, and 80 kilos of castings for less than $55!

 

['Boogieman']

Finally found an awesome farmer selling worms. I had to drive about an hour and half to get them. He also sells high quality (fed primarily manure), screened castings. I got a kilo of worms, and 80 kilos of castings for less than $55!

View Image

When I first started a worm bin I became a weirdo around everyone. Asking people for their rotten food, rotting pumpkins on the porch, coffee grounds, ect. I got a ton of wtf dude reactions.

 

[Hookahhead]

Haha Boogie, I had similar reactions when I first started out. I’ve had and maintained worms for a long time in the US, but when I moved to Central America I had a hard time finding someone farming them. I’ve had a few leads over the past 3 years, but they all fizzled out. It was great to meet this guy, he was using a bin method I’ve never read about on the internet. I still prefer a flow through design though.

My mom is visiting us this week, but I’ve already grabbed everything I need to build a 30 gallon flow through. I’ll post pictures in my worm thread when I build it out next week.

 

[Microbeman]

40deg

All that unsulphured molasses is. is molasses that does not have ADDED sulphur. All molasses has some sulphur naturally. Some companies add sulphur to restrict yeast/fungi. Just ask if it is added. I've never used sugar but some do.