Living Soil EU

[ilovegrowing]

Just as a tip, when you dont use peat, measure the ph of your soil, when everything is finished. I bought a bag of soil, without peat „living soil“ of frux i believe, and i was wondering why my plants show deficits.

Turns out ph is at 7,3 and i was watering with not enough ph adjusted water. After flushing with ph 6, and keeping watering ph levels low, it turned from dying to thriving.

 

[chilliwilli]

I have tried sonnenerde biofaser as the fluff part and it didn't work on a long run.
Biofaser is solid left over from a biogas plant that only digeste cow dung, it's straw with a intense shit smell.
First run was ok but second run started with problems. Plants turned only light green and soil got rock solid. Imo the predigested straw did compost too fast and sucked up all the n. I was also thinking(didn't measure) that ph got too high because the biofaser isn't acidic like coco or peat.

 

[Cannabis Critic]

Tad at KIS Organics (https://www.kisorganics.com/)
has been an invaluable resource for me over the last several years.

I highly recommend him for all soil related questions.

P. S. Orange’s Greenhouse mentioned the Cannabis Cultivation and Science podcast; it’s good stuff.

 

[KIS]

Moorland gold in northern England have thrived around their use of moorland peat runoff that has been caught in reservoir filtration systems. It would seem they are able to sidestep the looming peat ban.
Some composted pine bark and coir is now used in their bagged compost also. It's great stuff. Dalefoot compost in the lake district are also cool and using a mix of forest bracken and wool.

Europe definitely have more degraded peat bogs and issues with peat sustainability than North America. When it comes down to it, every substrate/media has an impact on the environment and sustainability issues. So it's important to educate yourself and then make the best decision for you. I will say that re-using the media like most folks do in here, makes it a heck a lot more sustainable than what most cannabis growers are doing with bottled nutrients and hydro.

 

[KIS]

I have tried sonnenerde biofaser as the fluff part and it didn't work on a long run.
Biofaser is solid left over from a biogas plant that only digeste cow dung, it's straw with a intense shit smell.
First run was ok but second run started with problems. Plants turned only light green and soil got rock solid. Imo the predigested straw did compost too fast and sucked up all the n. I was also thinking(didn't measure) that ph got too high because the biofaser isn't acidic like coco or peat.

That stuff looks a lot like peat but has entirely different properties. It is probably the high pH that got you, like you mention.

 

[GreenthumbViking]

I'm pretty sure the effective microorganisms brands especially like Multikraft in DE would be more cost effective than some of these websites spread across the whole of the EU. This order list is a bit all over the place and the focus on peat is a bit unwarranted as you should view it more as the "fluff" component. coir and many brands of 40L-50L bagged organic garden potting compost can fill this void.

you are somewhat overcomplicating coots recipe.
rethink it as all of these components mixed are valid, if not better. but i understand first timer obstinacy.

1/3 fluff - coir, peat, composted bark fines, sheeps wool, bagged garden centre potting mix is mostly fluffy mulch

1/3 aeration - pumice and biochar (you are doing great on this), expanded porous clay like alfagrog or leco, rice hulls/husks, buckwheat hulls, oat husks. homebrew suppliers are great for rice/oat husks and high diastatic power malted barley. then the standard perlite/vermiculite.

1/3 fantastic and preferably biologically active compost - vermicompost, aged manure, bokashi compost, homemade sieved compost

then mineral content and fancy fertilisers.
+1 for mealworm frass products.

Thanks for you reply bud, you're completely right it's first timer obstinacy. I can set up and run a grow on traditional soil, hydro or coco blindly and get very good results. But being in completely new territory with living soil. I can admit that even me thought everything to be a bit too expensive tbh, but having to translate from every European countrys language is so time consuming that I opted for the options that had everything in English and appeared in search results on google, with the exception of terralba as they were the only reasonably priced vermicompost supplier. In the two months I´ve been reading up on living soil I´ve feel I´ve gotten a better grasp on the whole concept and for the next living soil I´ll create in a few years I´ll source most components locally instead now that I feel I´ve understood it a bit better. Thing is though that sourcing locally proved to be 5x more expensive than sourcing from EU. Oh the sad reality of living in a place that has snow half the year and is thousands of KM away from civilization. Just the transport of the ordered components makes you want to cry haha.

One thing though, the sphagnum peat moss as I´ve understood it isnt only the fluff, but also regulates the PH extremly effectively and to a good level for the crop we're growing, or have I gotten that wrong?

 

[GreenthumbViking]

Just as a tip, when you dont use peat, measure the ph of your soil, when everything is finished. I bought a bag of soil, without peat „living soil“ of frux i believe, and i was wondering why my plants show deficits.

Turns out ph is at 7,3 and i was watering with not enough ph adjusted water. After flushing with ph 6, and keeping watering ph levels low, it turned from dying to thriving.

That was why I was so adamant to use Sphagnum peat moss, as it has this amazing property making the PH perfect for the type of crop we're interested in. But big thank you for the heads up, think that a lot of people can utilize this info when they try to create their soil.

 

[GreenthumbViking]

Tad at KIS Organics (https://www.kisorganics.com/)
has been an invaluable resource for me over the last several years.

I highly recommend him for all soil related questions.

P. S. Orange’s Greenhouse mentioned the Cannabis Cultivation and Science podcast; it’s good stuff.

One of the guys that I´ve read a lot from, like his style a lot tbh! Super competent and backs almost everything up with data or first hand experiences from professional horticulturists which is right up my alley. I have so far listened to 15 of his first podcasts on top of everything I´ve read. Only issue here is finding the time to listen to everything
But I have to give it up for build a soil which was the first video I watched, liked how they built everything up and have their recipes on their website as well.

But for me KIS will be the main source of info in the future.

 

[GreenthumbViking]

So everything is now ordered and due to some sourcing difficulties from some suppliers below is what I ended up with.
Basically I´ll have 2 kg too little of Basalt, I´ve cut down on the pumice to reduce the transpo cost and replaced the missing pumice with ricehulls. I´ll also have 3 kg too little of Shrimp and Krill. But I´ll for sure be able to run at least one run, possibly even two even though I´m a little short on the above mentioned amendments. I'll have to top dress from the second run most likely a little bit.
The one thing that has me a bit confused is that coots recipe calls for 1/3 of each base element, peat moss, pumice and vermicompost and I need to create 1296L in total.
The vermicompost I have ordered calls for 1kg for every 10 litres of substrate, pumice 216L + peat moss 432L+ ricehulls 216L=864L/10=86,4x1=86,4 kg of Vermicompost which is around 155L of vermicompost. Following Terralbas recommendation I´d end up with 1019L. I should be fine adding 250kg=432L of vermicompost to the soilmix so I end up with 1296L right?

I´ve also chose to go the natural IPM route with bugs instead of having neem and karanja in the soil. Although I have ordered some neem oil to utilize as a foliar spray during the first weeks of veg. Also ended up adding all funghi that terralba had available. Want to maximze my returns as much as possible.

Sphagnum peat (blond) (Estonian Peat Moss) (c.ca 40 Kg - 250 lt)

Pumice 7/14 mm (about 29 kg - 50 lt)

Rice Hulls 400L (Will only be using 216L)

VERMICOMPOST: growth, flowering, universal (25Kg) 25 kg ≈ 45-50l

Oyster Shell (fine crushed) (0-0,5mm) 25kg SKU : 150001300001510

Lurpe Kelp Meal 1-25Kg

Biocal Agriculture Gypsum 25kg SKU : 150001300001448

Cultivers Ecoforce Basalt Rock Dust (Powder) 1-20kg SKU : 150001300000841 Kilos : 20

Almicanna Organic Little Helper Seeds 50-200g (Cover Crop Mix) SKU : 150001300001090 Grams : 200

Organic Malted Barley 25kg

Cultivers Ecoforce Biochar 5-125L (1-25kg) SKU : 150001300001277 Liters : 125

Prot-Eco Bio-Neem 30-100ml SKU : 150002700000018 Milliliters : 100

Cultivers Ecoforce Sugar Cane Molasses 1-20L SKU : 150001300001053 Liters : 5

Cultivers Ecoforce Bone Meal 1-20kg

Krill meal (Qrill) 5kg

Shrimp meal 5kg

BioChar Terralba 25kg around 125L

Endomycorhizes RHIZOPHAGUS IRREGULARIS (50g)​

Saccharomyces Cerevisiae yeasts, soil structure, decomposer (2Kg)​

ENGRAIS STARTER MICROGANULES : Micro-Organisme IT45 (1Kg)

Bacillus IT35 Amyloliquefaciens X5_Microorganismes (100g)

Neoseiulus cucumeris 5000 bugs

Amblyseius swirskii

Stratiolaelaps scimitus 2500 bugs

Steinernema feltiae 20m²

Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis 2x10 tablets

Eisenia fetida and Eisenia Hortensis 1kg

 

[GreenthumbViking]

Then lastly I have finally found a soil testing company that can test my soil for 129€. For that I´ll get this tested: pH, Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC), Organic Matter %, Ammonium, Nitrate, Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, Potassium, Phosphorus, Aluminium, Boron, Copper, Cobalt, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum. Selenium and Zinc.

For all you testing freaks (mean it in a good way!) is this a good base for testing the soil?
Then I have started to think about my water, we have our own well that has a Iron filter to filtre out the exssesive iron in the water. It not a osmosis filter. A water test has not been made in the last 5 years, but I should be good watering with this water right? A water test is out of the question as they cost and arm and a leg over here. Or maybe there is home test kits so you can get an idea at least.. hmm

 

[bleepboop]

you can use the excess rice hulls as a mulch/pot topper to retain moisture before the cover crop takes root. they will also break down and compost over time, releasing silica.

 

[bleepboop]

also:
don't worry about being a bit short on total litres of soil mix. over time it will build up with mulches and top dress so you don't always want to fill the container to the top.
I don't know if you have a fabric planter container but moisture loss is more of a difficulty in living soil. if the container has no liner you can wrap the top 80% in cling film so the bottom is used for drainage

also the blumat dripper systems are a lifesaver for uniform moisture levels.

 

[GreenthumbViking]

you can use the excess rice hulls as a mulch/pot topper to retain moisture before the cover crop takes root. they will also break down and compost over time, releasing silica.

Ah that´s smart! Found some hay in the barn that I had planned on using that´s just been laying there for years. But will mix so I have a bit of both. Thanks for the tip!

 

[GreenthumbViking]

also:
don't worry about being a bit short on total litres of soil mix. over time it will build up with mulches and top dress so you don't always want to fill the container to the top.
I don't know if you have a fabric planter container but moisture loss is more of a difficulty in living soil. if the container has no liner you can wrap the top 80% in cling film so the bottom is used for drainage

also the blumat dripper systems are a lifesaver for uniform moisture levels.

Good point, did ponder just that at the start tbh and came to the same conclusion
I´ll be running it in 2xCali Beds 120x120x45, they look lined on the sides but havent opened them yet.

Will definitely consider running cling film on the sides if there´s no liner.
Funny that you mention blumat, I´ve actually been looking for a gravity based irrigation system as we will be away a few days over Christmas. For two cali beds 120x120x45 beds, how many drippers would you recommend? Was thinking of running one blumat tank 47L for the two beds and was thinking that 20 drippers per bed should more than suffice or is 12 per bed more realistic? Never used blumat w. living soil before so a bit unsure.

 

[exploziv]

12 per bed should be plenty. One of them alone can certainly keep a bigger pot happy, so that will do it for your bed.

 

[GreenthumbViking]

12 per bed should be plenty. One of them alone can certainly keep a bigger pot happy, so that will do it for your bed.

Awesome, as usual overdoing it in my initial calculations with the excuse "better safe than sorry"

Thx @exploziv!

 

[bleepboop]

yeah those beds have a liner purpose made for living soil (grassroots fabric pots?)
you could probably go as low as nine drippers but a grid of twelve would be plenty.
there's a lot of ways to lay them out. the blusoak drip tape can be more effective for big raised beds rather than pots but not as well distributed.

 

[GreenthumbViking]

yeah those beds have a liner purpose made for living soil (grassroots fabric pots?)
you could probably go as low as nine drippers but a grid of twelve would be plenty.
there's a lot of ways to lay them out. the blusoak drip tape can be more effective for big raised beds rather than pots but not as well distributed.

Sadly they are not Grassrots fabric pots, but some knockoff from a european company.

After researching blumat I decided to go with BluSoak dripper hose with one maxi and one regular carrot per bed, seems to be the best for beds as I´ve understood and got away a lot cheaper than the premade kits, so I´m a happy camper atm. Will be creating a closed loop bluemat system with two zones (one per bed) with a purge valve as well. Was thinking that one 47L tank for the two beds, anyone that has an idea on hos long 47L will last for two 4x4 beds?

Is the filter in the tank and the cap protectors for the valves on the carrots necessary?

For the Blumat this is what I ended up ordering:

47L Tank (for both beds)
Bluemat tank Filter (Not in stock at the only company that had all other components..)
Cap protectors (also not in stock...)
Tank Connector x2
Shutoff valve x3 (2 between tank and blumat zones, third one as a purge valve)
20m 8mm tubing between tank and blumat zones

Blumat zone x2 (everything needs to be x2 from below numbers)
50’/1524cm BluSoak 2.0 Drip Tape
10 BluSoak to 8mm adapter
6 Blumat Tees 8mm
4 Blumat elbows
2 Blumat Reducing Tee - 8x3x8mm
1 Tropf Blumat sensor 5”
1 Tropf Blumat sensor Maxi 9”
12’/366cm Super-Flex 8mm tubing
10’/305cm 3mm Drip Tube
12 7”/17,78cm BluSoak Hold down Stakes

So stoked to get all of this going! Still waiting for all the components for the soil... the shipping is taking forever!

 

[bigbadbiddy]

It kinda sucks tryna grow organic in EU.
Fertilizers are categorized into "what do you want to grow?" and then they sell you a ready made fertilizer for that plant. Inside are all the same ingredients that they premix to sell it at a premium. And ofc don't forget to put the good blue shit on all your crops lol

The single ingredients are nearly impossible to source.

I ended up buying everything from a bio farmer in the netherlands who had almost everything I needed and at great prices. Still had to order bone meal from the UK back then though since it was outlawed in EU.

After the bone meal and some other stuff ran out I couldn't get it anymore cause the dutch bio farmer closed shop and there was no alternative.

Long story short:
A lot of the stuff listed hear like Krill meal and such, I have tried.

Many times over I got the feeling that stuff that is meant for making fishing bait (boilies) is not the same as stuff meant for agriculture. At least that was my impression.

I tried out so many different sources for single ingredients for soil mixes and always ran into issues. Blood meal was only available in pellet form and could thus not be absorbed/broken down fast enough etc. etc. etc.

In the end I said fuck it and ordered bat guano from guanokalong or what its called.

For my upcoming grow after a 5 year hiatus, I plan to use my old soilmix (that has been inert since), mix a good helping of bat guano into it, fresh worm castings, water it with an aerated compost tea made from worm castings, bat guano, molasses and malted barley and then let that bitch cook for 2 weeks.

For veg I will do the same thing except go easy on the bat guano.

I expect I will either burn my plants or have amazing results. Will let ya know in a few months

 

[aCBD]

It kinda sucks tryna grow organic in EU.
Fertilizers are categorized into "what do you want to grow?" and then they sell you a ready made fertilizer for that plant. Inside are all the same ingredients that they premix to sell it at a premium. And ofc don't forget to put the good blue shit on all your crops lol

The single ingredients are nearly impossible to source.

I ended up buying everything from a bio farmer in the netherlands who had almost everything I needed and at great prices. Still had to order bone meal from the UK back then though since it was outlawed in EU.

After the bone meal and some other stuff ran out I couldn't get it anymore cause the dutch bio farmer closed shop and there was no alternative.

Long story short:
A lot of the stuff listed hear like Krill meal and such, I have tried.

Many times over I got the feeling that stuff that is meant for making fishing bait (boilies) is not the same as stuff meant for agriculture. At least that was my impression.

I tried out so many different sources for single ingredients for soil mixes and always ran into issues. Blood meal was only available in pellet form and could thus not be absorbed/broken down fast enough etc. etc. etc.

In the end I said fuck it and ordered bat guano from guanokalong or what its called.

For my upcoming grow after a 5 year hiatus, I plan to use my old soilmix (that has been inert since), mix a good helping of bat guano into it, fresh worm castings, water it with an aerated compost tea made from worm castings, bat guano, molasses and malted barley and then let that bitch cook for 2 weeks.

For veg I will do the same thing except go easy on the bat guano.

I expect I will either burn my plants or have amazing results. Will let ya know in a few months

You can use a coffee grinder to grind the pellets, works great. Using it for chicken poo pellets.
Guanokalong is great for high P but because of it's availability i switched to a more balanced guano blend. Tests are ongoing.