Living Soil EU

[GreenthumbViking]

Hey there,
I´m planning on growing in living soil following Clackmas Coot recipe or Build a soil recipe. Keep in mind that I´m in the EU and ordering from US is out of the question for me. Grown in Hydro, Coco and Soil previously, but want to move to a more sustainable growing model thats fully organic. Looked at buying premade kits but feel that they are waay too expensive compared to buying all ingredients and making it yourself. Will be making around 1296L of soil for two Cali beds a 648L, one for mothers and one for flowering. Perpetual garden for the win!
So my question to you is, does my recipe look alright for a first time living soil grower or is there something I´m missing like crustean meal, terra preta, ash, fish meal, guano, worms and so fourth? If so how do I incorporate those to the coot recipe and know how much to have of each instead of X ingredient? Build a soil receipe requires crustean meal, which I´m having a hard time finding in EU. Asking you experienced growers for your tips and tricks. And if you know better sources for the stuff I've sourced please do share! (These sources are what I've been able to find with my extensive googling for a private person to buy)

My recipe so far (If there's something I´m ordering to little of or too much of, please do let me know!)

Recipe	To be ordered	Quantity I need for 1296L Soil
Blonde Sphagnum Peat Moss	500L	432L
Pumice 7-14mm	450L	432L
VermiCompost	450L	432L
Oyster Shell	25kg	10,8281L
Kelp Meal	25kg	10,8281L
ProNeem	10kg	10,8281L
Gypsum	25kg	5,414L
Basalt	20kg	32,48L
Cover Crop	200g	Unknown

What I've done is basically to convert the Clackmas Coot Receipe as follows:
1296L / 3 = 432 L we'll need for each part of the base soil
1 cubic foot in Litres converts to: 28,3168 L
1296L/28,3168L= 45,76 cups/2=22,88 cups in total for whole soil
1 cup = 0,236588L x 45,76 = 10,8281L /2= 5,414L
3 cups = 0,709765L x 45,76788 cups = 32,48L


Thanks to ya'll in the forum, been an avid lurker for years but haven't hoined until now! If you spot any mistakes or so in my calculations please do let me know

 

[chilliwilli]

I won't skip the crustacea in the mix. The chitine is good for the soil to make it a less hospitable place for pests and adds also n and p and trace minerals to the mix. Carp supplies have a good selection of them, i use 50% gammarus dust and 50% krill to keep possible heavy metals low.

Imo too less basalt in the mix. The ration i use is 1 part gypsum, 1 part oystershell and 2 parts basalt/rockflour. And i use more compared to the organics like kelp, neem or crustacea. Per 30l i use 1/2 cup organics, 1 cup high ca(gypsum, oystershell), 2 cups basalt and 2 cups malt.

I'd also use ~10% pre charged biochar in the mix, that helps imo with using the mix longer and stabilises the soil.

 

[GreenthumbViking]

I won't skip the crustacea in the mix. The chitine is good for the soil to make it a less hospitable place for pests and adds also n and p and trace minerals to the mix. Carp supplies have a good selection of them, i use 50% gammarus dust and 50% krill to keep possible heavy metals low.

Imo too less basalt in the mix. The ration i use is 1 part gypsum, 1 part oystershell and 2 parts basalt/rockflour. And i use more compared to the organics like kelp, neem or crustacea. Per 30l i use 1/2 cup organics, 1 cup high ca(gypsum, oystershell), 2 cups basalt and 2 cups malt.

I'd also use ~10% pre charged biochar in the mix, that helps imo with using the mix longer and stabilises the soil.

Thank you for the answer, made me certain that I need crustacea in the soil. Will also be adding worms (Eisenia fetida and Eisenia Hortensis) to the soil as I´ve heard it's so beneficial.

All I can find is;
Gammarus legs 5kg
Shrimp meal
Krill Meal 5kg
Malted barley 10kg
Worms 0,5kg
Activated Bio Char 25kg/45-50L

My thinking is I´ll add the gammarus and krill meal, skipping the shrimp meal. Then also Malted Barley, activated bio char (50L) & Worms. I´ll also cut down on the basalt to two cups per cubic foot.
When it comes to top dressing, teas and so fourth, I guess that compost from the kitchen, leafs from the plants, worm casings and malted barley should suffice every 2-4 weeks in a new soil? Any other tips that are a must have for living soil? As I live far far far away from civilization I need to have everything home to combat possible deficiencies. I havent even started to deep dive into teas and so fourth yet, so almost completely clueluess when it comes to that. Any tips or guides in this area would be heaven sent!

Ps. the living soil will be getting Scynce Raging Kush 2 for lights, mothers with a 70 degree optics version for better penetration and flowering will be run with 120 degree version. Super excited to be able to test different light spectrums. With their deals going on they were so much cheaper than Grandmaster Leds fullspectrum lights that it felt like a no brainer (the only thing I've ordered from the US as good fullspectrum lights are impossible to find in the EU). Ds.

Happy growing!

 

[chilliwilli]

I can't tell much about teas as i make them rarely but i mulch with the leafs. It's suboptimal since there are always some moldy leaf on the soil so also more mold spores in the air.

The coots mix should be good for 2 runs if u compost as much plant material as possible in the soil between runs.

Fungus gnats will always come with a new mix so get some bti for the first 2 waterings, i use culinex tab plus.

Watch the covercrop close because pest will show there first. And get some ipm implied. When plants are in flower there is not much u can do and the pests will survive in the soil. So better spray them regular in veg and the first 2 weeks after flip.

Since u said things are hard to get to u get something against pests like neem or spinosad but both are not without problems. Spinosad f.e. works like a charm against spidermites but i'm not sure how long it will stay in the plant tissue.

 

[FellaAndrene]

I apply predatory mites as an IPM strategy. The species I use are Neoseiulus cucumeris, Amblyseius swirskii, and Stratiolaelaps scimitus (a.k.a. Hypoaspis miles), as they are locally available for me.

If you recycle your soil, they'll live there for years, feeding on the fungus gnats your organic soil grow will inevitably have.

I would skip the neem completely, as that fucks up the beneficials too.

EDIT: I've also found that I need to add an extra source of calcium phosphate. Currently, I use the Solabiol brand bone meal made from horse carcasses.

 

[KIS]

Not sure where you're located but have you looked into EcoThrive? They have a really good source of insect frass too, which I include in all my formulations now. Recipes should really be built around the compost source rather than matching what others have done because everyone's compost will vary in fertility.

 

[FellaAndrene]

Not sure where you're located but have you looked into EcoThrive? They have a really good source of insect frass too, which I include in all my formulations now.

I also was very happy with their insect frass product, Ecothrive Charge.

This was when I still grew in BioBizz substrates, where the added biology (from Charge) fixed many of the substrates inadequacies.

I've since moved on to using a combination of semi-local pasteurized leaf compost and vermicomposted cow/horse manure instead. Works as well, if not better.

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

So you want to be sustainable and start with half a cubic meter of peat. That takes about 400 years to rebuild (but not in actuality as bog renaturation is a scam).

On a more technical note: without a analysis of your compost fraction you can't say what nutrients to add or if it is even compatible with planting.

 

[FellaAndrene]

So you want to be sustainable and start with half a cubic meter of peat. That takes about 400 years to rebuild (but not in actuality as bog renaturation is a scam).

Oh, didn't notice - that's actual peat OP was thinking of. I've switched to "sustainable" moss myself, as the local companies started to phase out from the traditional peat business.

It's important to note that peat needs liming and a little bit of setting before you can start to mix it with the other ingredients. Gypsum won't do - it'll only cement.

Basically, my current mix (and all fertilization) consists of:

• "Sustainably harvested" sphagnum moss, inoculated with Gliocladium ssp.
• Perlite + vermiculite + LECA clay balls
• Pasteurized leaf and wood chip compost
• Vermicomposted cow and horse manure
• Biochar, loaded with nutrients and Bacillus spp.
• Kelp (animal feed quality)
• Dry fermented plant extracts with a 5-1-7 NPK ratio (product from a local company)
• Bone meal (Solabiol brand)
• Dolomite (garden) lime
• Wollastonite (W-10 grade)
• Gypsum (food grade)
• Basalt
• Silt/sand
• Epsom salt
• Rootgrow Mycorrhizal Fungi (Funneliformis mosseae, F. geosporus, Claroideoglomus claroideum, Glomus microagregatum, Rhizophagus irregularis, Diversispora ssp.)

 

[bajode5]

In my opinion I would change the moss with other ingredients, like coconut coir. There will be not benefits on your recipe doing it, but the moss takes a looooong time to grow again in the nature. It's not sustainable for me.

Cheers!

 

[GreenthumbViking]

I can't tell much about teas as i make them rarely but i mulch with the leafs. It's suboptimal since there are always some moldy leaf on the soil so also more mold spores in the air.

The coots mix should be good for 2 runs if u compost as much plant material as possible in the soil between runs.

Fungus gnats will always come with a new mix so get some bti for the first 2 waterings, i use culinex tab plus.

Watch the covercrop close because pest will show there first. And get some ipm implied. When plants are in flower there is not much u can do and the pests will survive in the soil. So better spray them regular in veg and the first 2 weeks after flip.

Since u said things are hard to get to u get something against pests like neem or spinosad but both are not without problems. Spinosad f.e. works like a charm against spidermites but i'm not sure how long it will stay in the plant tissue.

I apply predatory mites as an IPM strategy. The species I use are Neoseiulus cucumeris, Amblyseius swirskii, and Stratiolaelaps scimitus (a.k.a. Hypoaspis miles), as they are locally available for me.

If you recycle your soil, they'll live there for years, feeding on the fungus gnats your organic soil grow will inevitably have.

I would skip the neem completely, as that fucks up the beneficials too.

EDIT: I've also found that I need to add an extra source of calcium phosphate. Currently, I use the Solabiol brand bone meal made from horse carcasses.

Thanks for both of your responses, truly appreciate it. I had planned on running neem oil in a spray bottle after taking the clones and the first weeks after they've been transplanted. Has been my SOP for years and never *knockOnWood* had any pest issues. But maybe Neem isnt truly compatible with living soil? As I've read similar comments in several places. Had planned on spraying Neem in water during veg phase on top of the neem I had planned on having in the soil, as per the coots receipe. Have a bunch of neem from previous grows that I´d like to get rid off. But maybe it would be better to run the predatory mites instead. Tbh worried about the bugs infesting the rest of the house, is that an issue at all from your experience @FellaAndrene? Running it in my basement in grow tents, but have a wife, kids and a normal life. Quite standard that we have people over, friends, family and neighbors and so fourth. One of the neigbors is the police chief in the area (I've had him over on so many occasions as he has taken a liking to me, even though the feeling is not mutual I´d rather have my enemies close...)
Calcium phosphate is actually something I've been adding to my soil for a few years, have plenty at home so that can be added. But @FellaAndrene in what quantites are you adding it per cubic foot?

Not sure where you're located but have you looked into EcoThrive? They have a really good source of insect frass too, which I include in all my formulations now. Recipes should really be built around the compost source rather than matching what others have done because everyone's compost will vary in fertility.

I have not looked into them, just checked their webpage and a lot of the products show a 404 error page so not instilling a lot of confidence tbh. Plus that they are based in the UK which means customs, trying to avoid customs at all costs, so not a viable option for me.

I get where you're coming from, but since it's my first living soil I´d rather follow a recipe and if necessary tweak it afterwards once I´ve started to understand living soil as a whole. Feels like living soil goes against everything I learned previously, so will have to learn as I go.

So you want to be sustainable and start with half a cubic meter of peat. That takes about 400 years to rebuild (but not in actuality as bog renaturation is a scam).

On a more technical note: without a analysis of your compost fraction you can't say what nutrients to add or if it is even compatible with planting.

Helpful post ^^ Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed? Your post comes off a certain way..

Sustainable as I´ll be able to reuse the soil over and over again, that is sustainable for me. This would still be better than what I've done previously in regards to the environment. And as this is my first living soil, I'd rather follow the original recipe. Plus that the peat comes from a neighboring country so not that far to transport compared to cocoa shell that is available here, but has been transported much much further. There's two sides to every coin. Although I´m not sure which one is worse for the env tbh.
Yeah I've been reading about testing soil, but haven't been able to find anyone that performs soil tests as comprehensive as in the States in the EU. But maybe my googling has sucked, do you have any kits to do the testing yourself or soil testing companies in the EU you could recommend? What should I be testing (pH, P, K, Mg)? I have a substrate PH meter at least, so that's something I can check myself.
The only testing company I've found in EU, but what test to order?

My vermicompost has the below composition, with this data how and with what components would you build your soil?
- Dry matter 65.3%
- Organic matter 48.7%
- Ph 7.9 EC 5.98dS/m
- Nitrogen (N) 2.4% of which NO3 0.28
- Phosphorus (P205) 3.2% of which
- Potash (K2O) 3.8% Moisture acids
- Humic acids 6.2%
- Fulvic acids 0.9%
- C/N 11.8

 

[GreenthumbViking]

Oh, didn't notice - that's actual peat OP was thinking of. I've switched to "sustainable" moss myself, as the local companies started to phase out from the traditional peat business.

It's important to note that peat needs liming and a little bit of setting before you can start to mix it with the other ingredients. Gypsum won't do - it'll only cement.

Basically, my current mix (and all fertilization) consists of:

• "Sustainably harvested" sphagnum moss, inoculated with Gliocladium ssp.
• Perlite + vermiculite + LECA clay balls
• Pasteurized leaf and wood chip compost
• Vermicomposted cow and horse manure
• Biochar, loaded with nutrients and Bacillus spp.
• Kelp (animal feed quality)
• Dry fermented plant extracts with a 5-1-7 NPK ratio (product from a local company)
• Bone meal (Solabiol brand)
• Dolomite (garden) lime
• Wollastonite (W-10 grade)
• Gypsum (food grade)
• Basalt
• Silt/sand
• Epsom salt
• Rootgrow Mycorrhizal Fungi (Funneliformis mosseae, F. geosporus, Claroideoglomus claroideum, Glomus microagregatum, Rhizophagus irregularis, Diversispora ssp.)

Oh wow your full recipe, so kind to share it! Are you based in the EU or somewhere else? This might be an alternative to coots recipe, but really dont want to mess up my grow. Coots recipe feels foolproof kinda. What quantities are you using of each ingredient per cubic foot?
Liming peat, never done it but isn't that the purpose of the oyster shells? Liming and getting the PH to a better level right?
Was just about to order everything, but now I got unsure...

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

Sustainable as I´ll be able to reuse the soil over and over again, that is sustainable for me. This would still be better than what I've done previously in regards to the environment. And as this is my first living soil, I'd rather follow the original recipe. Plus that the peat comes from a neighboring country so not that far to transport compared to cocoa shell that is available here, but has been transported much much further. There's two sides to every coin. Although I´m not sure which one is worse for the env tbh.

Transported by ship from far away opposed to transported by truck. Ships are way more efficient. That is a nice argument to reason that peat is ok and if you don't calculate the actual impact it holds. But even if it were true you're comparing apples to oranges, habitat destruction to greenhouse gas emission.

That peat does not last indefinitely. It burns over time, especially in a well aerated potting mix.

For soil tests look for the agricultural supply. In germany is Raiffeisen that offer such tests to farmers but there are many outfits.
For compost there are usually more tests done than just nutrients. Heavy metal content is important, so is allelopathic potential.
In terms of what to add. That's beyond my knowledge. I don't know what is available to you, what good targets are and how that translates to bioavailability.
Kisorganics has a podcast on that topic and the tl;dr is that it's not feasible for small quantities. Small meaning less than hundreds of tons.
You can of course throw something together, keep the light low and accept that productivity is lower than simple coco + salts.

Episode 75: Formulating Soils and New Products with Rob Knechtel of Black Swallow Living Soils

My guest this week is Rob Knechtel, founder of Black Swallow Living Soils. Although Rob’s life long interest in growing cannabis began in the late 60’s, he has spent the past 45 years in a completely unrelated industry designing, installing and marketing fireplaces. When the Canadian government...

www.kisorganics.com

 

[KIS]

Transported by ship from far away opposed to transported by truck. Ships are way more efficient. That is a nice argument to reason that peat is ok and if you don't calculate the actual impact it holds. But even if it were true you're comparing apples to oranges, habitat destruction to greenhouse gas emission.

That peat does not last indefinitely. It burns over time, especially in a well aerated potting mix.

For soil tests look for the agricultural supply. In germany is Raiffeisen that offer such tests to farmers but there are many outfits.
For compost there are usually more tests done than just nutrients. Heavy metal content is important, so is allelopathic potential.
In terms of what to add. That's beyond my knowledge. I don't know what is available to you, what good targets are and how that translates to bioavailability.
Kisorganics has a podcast on that topic and the tl;dr is that it's not feasible for small quantities. Small meaning less than hundreds of tons.
You can of course throw something together, keep the light low and accept that productivity is lower than simple coco + salts.

Episode 75: Formulating Soils and New Products with Rob Knechtel of Black Swallow Living Soils

My guest this week is Rob Knechtel, founder of Black Swallow Living Soils. Although Rob’s life long interest in growing cannabis began in the late 60’s, he has spent the past 45 years in a completely unrelated industry designing, installing and marketing fireplaces. When the Canadian government...

www.kisorganics.com

About to record a podcast with this guy: https://www.ars.usda.gov/midwest-ar...ion-technology-research/people/james-altland/

I saw one of his recent presentations on peat in N. America and it's actually not as bad as some make it out to be. There are very sustainable practices in place to preserve and maintain bogs. I can't say what the situation is in Europe, but the fossil fuel costs and washing of coco coir is not great either. Every substrate has it's pro and cons from an environmental perspective. From a plant growth perspective though, peat is excellent, especially for creating a living soil mix.

 

[chilliwilli]

I use sphagnum moss in my mix too as substitute for peat. I'v read here that peat has a positive effect on smell/taste but i honestly can't notice any difference to coco. Still have some sphagnum stored but when it's used i will only get coco(and cork) for a fraction of the price.

 

[bajode5]

Idk if someone mentioned, but i will like to recommend the KNF IMO or something similar to stay your microbial life in the soil, maybe use some lab (acid lactic bacteria). There are no nutrients in self but it's very beneficial for your soil.

 

[GreenthumbViking]

Thanks to everyone in the thread, appreciate all of your replies!
I have decided on below components for the living soil, where the only thing I´m unsure of is if I should skip the "Trabe ProNeem" and "Prot-Eco Bio-Neem" as I´ll be going with bugs to control pests instead.
I havent calculated the ratios fully as it has taken ages to source everything. Will re-calculate and adjust. Still feel a bit unsure of how much I should have of every component as the "recipe" has evolved quite a bit from Coots classic recipe. I plan on building 1296L of soil so any assistance in quanties to order would be of so much help, as a lot of stuff have been added that will make me have to cut down on other components than I had originally planned. Going fully organic and running in living soil is hella expensive tbh when you have to buy all components.

	Item	AMOUNT/PCS	Price per unit €	Total €
Led-Grower.eu
	Growbox Gorilla Grow Tent 152x152x210-240	2	€434,56 / pcs	869,12
	Aqua Master KCI Storage Solution 100ml	1	€5,29 / pcs	5,29
	Plant Success Mycorrhizae Great White Granular 1 1kg	4	€45,06 / pcs	180,24
	Plant Success Orca Liquid Mycorrhizae 946ml	2	€86,06 / pcs	172,12
geosism.com
	Sphagnum peat (blond) (Estonian Peat Moss) (c.ca 40 Kg - 250 lt)	2	25	52
	Pumice 7/14 mm (about 29 kg - 50 lt)	9	9,02	99
terralba.eu
	VERMICOMPOST: growth, flowering, universal (25Kg) 25 kg ≈ 45-50l	10	28.90	288,97
opengrow.pt
	Oyster Shell (fine crushed) (0-0,5mm) 25kg SKU : 150001300001510	1pcs a 25kg	56,59 €	56,59
	Lurpe Kelp Meal 1-25Kg SKU : 150001300001462 Kilos : 25	1pcs a 25 kg	188,67 €	188,67
	Trabe ProNeem 1-5kg (Flour) SKU : 150002700000014 Kilos : 5	2pcs a 5kg	66,97 €	133,94
	Biocal Agriculture Gypsum 25kg SKU : 150001300001448	1pcs a 25kg	6,97 €	6,97
	Cultivers Ecoforce Basalt Rock Dust (Powder) 1-20kg SKU : 150001300000841 Kilos : 20	1pcs a 20kg	25,46 €	25,46
	Almicanna Organic Little Helper Seeds 50-200g (Cover Crop Mix) SKU : 150001300001090 Grams : 200	1pcs a 200g	17,90 €	17,90
	Almicanna Organic Malted Barley 1.5-10kg SKU : 150001300001098 Kilos : 10	1pcs a 10kg	47,07 €	47,07
	Cultivers Ecoforce Biochar 5-125L (1-25kg) SKU : 150001300001277 Liters : 125	1pcs a 125l	99,05 €	99,05
	Prot-Eco Bio-Neem 30-100ml SKU : 150002700000018 Milliliters : 100	2 pcs a 100ml	23,99 €	47,98
	Cultivers Ecoforce Sugar Cane Molasses 1-20L SKU : 150001300001053 Liters : 5	1pcs a 5L	18,67 €	18,67
baitmarket.eu
	Krill meal (Qrill)	1pcs a 5kg	43,25 €	43,25
fiskedeal.dk
	1 kg Gammarus legs	5pcs a 1kg	5,17	29,72
Pest control/Bugs
	Neoseiulus cucumeris 5000 bugs	1pcs a 5000bugs	22,95	22,95
	Amblyseius swirskii	5x250 bugs= 1250 bugs	11,95	11,95
	Stratiolaelaps scimitus 2500 bugs	1pcs a 2500 bugs	14,95	14,95
	Steinernema feltiae 20m²	2pcs a 20m²	17,90	35,80
	Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis 2x10 tablets	2pcs a 20 tablets	9,50	18,99
Worms
	Eisenia fetida and Eisenia Hortensis 1kg	1pcs a 1kg	27,50	27,50

 

[GreenthumbViking]

Regarding testing of the soil, have found a lab in Ireland that does testing finally. They offer the following testing, what should I test my soil for? Never tested soil before so my knowledge regarding this is extremely limited. What do you recommend testing for?

I have the following options:

 

[bleepboop]

About to record a podcast with this guy: https://www.ars.usda.gov/midwest-ar...ion-technology-research/people/james-altland/

I saw one of his recent presentations on peat in N. America and it's actually not as bad as some make it out to be. There are very sustainable practices in place to preserve and maintain bogs. I can't say what the situation is in Europe, but the fossil fuel costs and washing of coco coir is not great either. Every substrate has it's pro and cons from an environmental perspective. From a plant growth perspective though, peat is excellent, especially for creating a living soil mix.

Moorland gold in northern England have thrived around their use of moorland peat runoff that has been caught in reservoir filtration systems. It would seem they are able to sidestep the looming peat ban.
Some composted pine bark and coir is now used in their bagged compost also. It's great stuff. Dalefoot compost in the lake district are also cool and using a mix of forest bracken and wool.

 

[bleepboop]

I'm pretty sure the effective microorganisms brands especially like Multikraft in DE would be more cost effective than some of these websites spread across the whole of the EU. This order list is a bit all over the place and the focus on peat is a bit unwarranted as you should view it more as the "fluff" component. coir and many brands of 40L-50L bagged organic garden potting compost can fill this void.

you are somewhat overcomplicating coots recipe.
rethink it as all of these components mixed are valid, if not better. but i understand first timer obstinacy.

1/3 fluff - coir, peat, composted bark fines, sheeps wool, bagged garden centre potting mix is mostly fluffy mulch

1/3 aeration - pumice and biochar (you are doing great on this), expanded porous clay like alfagrog or leco, rice hulls/husks, buckwheat hulls, oat husks. homebrew suppliers are great for rice/oat husks and high diastatic power malted barley. then the standard perlite/vermiculite.

1/3 fantastic and preferably biologically active compost - vermicompost, aged manure, bokashi compost, homemade sieved compost

then mineral content and fancy fertilisers.
+1 for mealworm frass products.