Living organic soil from start through recycling

[xmobotx]

What is the last day in flower you would apply a neem foliar?

What is the last day in flower you would apply an enzyme tea foliar?(assuming no risk of PM or botrytis, etc.)

What about ful-power?

Curious as to the imparted taste of a late flower neem foliar...anyone neem their flowers after week 6 or so?

for me the key is 'never spray the flowers w/ anything'

have found occasion to spray the leaves up to mid and even late flower w/ a preference to just water while carefully avoiding flowers ~and you have to see that is not very practical

there may be some science to come on this but seeing no one pick up your query figured my understanding couldnt hurt here

in general; you dont want to spray buds w/ anything and; following these tenets; you should not need to

 

[Gascanastan]

Astute observations from one of my peers

Astute observations from one of my peers

We used Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis (vectobac) for over 15 years for control of mosquitos. It only effects mosquito and small fly larvae (black fly, fungus gnats) according to literature. In our experience, it did not appear to negatively impact other wetland insects like dragon fly. It works in similar fashion to spinosad (AFAIK) except that spinosad effects more species. The larvae must eat the bacteria (spore) and then they die.

Thanks for that....the more we organic nut jobs report our observations the better eh hoser. Yes indeed BT works well in the outside standing water sources to control the skeeters.

 

[rrog]

I have used it when starting soils in addition to Neem, nematodes and crab. I stopped using DE.

 

[bigshrimp]

Yeah the bt seems to work fine for control. Keeps the populations from blooming like they normally.

Neem meal is definitely on the top of my list of amendments but my soil needs a couple of cycles before im comfortable adding more N. The more sensitive ones get slight signs of N toxicity when i use even a weak alfalfa tea. Very pleased with the results though. Props to you all, as always.

On a different note ie been making quinoua sprout teas, and have good results but notice some leaf twist and sometimes a little blistering the day after. almost like they are growing too fast lol. It mostly sorts itself out but i was wondering is anyone else has noticed anything like that?

-bigshrimp

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Barstow Flash - I am spraying as a preventative for all of the aforementioned guests, as well as powdery mildew (just in case), etc. The last insects I had to deal with were mites in my quarantine room - and that plant got chopped a few weeks ago. 3 applications of spinosad later and I can't find a single mite...but that doesn't mean that I'm out of the woods yet. I sprayed spinosad a few days ago in the flower and veg rooms, and just hit them last night with a neem/protekt/aloe foliar. I am hesitant to do another application of spinosad in the flower and veg rooms because I want to release ladybugs soon...and they wouldnt be too happy about the spinosad. Also, I don't want to kill any young earthworms that might be hatching out of the cocoons that were in the EWC topdress.

What is the last day in flower you would apply a neem foliar?

What is the last day in flower you would apply an enzyme tea foliar?(assuming no risk of PM or botrytis, etc.)

What about ful-power?

Curious as to the imparted taste of a late flower neem foliar...anyone neem their flowers after week 6 or so?


P.S. - how was your time in lovely Barstow - the "Crossroads of Opportunity" lmao. More like the crossroads of meth and ignorance...

Cann

In this regard, Spinosad is like Neem oil in that it is not harmful to beneficial insects.

I have to stop spraying by Day 14 with the strains that I grow because even that early in the cycle the flowers are very developed. So as far as the last day that is going to be strain-dependent.

When you get to the point where you are concerned with spraying as far as Ful-Power, then switch and apply the Fulvic acid to your soil and you could/should do that when you apply the sprouted seed tea each week.

If you've run your plants through the veg cycle and they are mite free and you are still mite free until the last day that you feel okay with foliar spraying then you should be home free. It's the reproductive cycle that has to be broken, i.e. adult-egg-larva deal and assuming that you have had the plants for 3 weeks in veg and another 2 weeks into the flower cycle and you have no trace of mites - you did your job well.

HTH

CC

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

I am happy to foliar my plants with light solutions of kelp, neem or aloe vera and feremented barley up to about week 3 or 4 of flower. That is until the white pistils naturally start to turn orange...

From then on just plain water. Because i use the sticky goop that is rubbed on the stems any mites (most of em) knocked off just with a spray of water will get stuck trying to climb back up the plant.

I have never had mites so bad they have ruined a plant.

But yeah as Cootz et al mention the key is to have dealt with the pests in veg and in flower ideally sprays are a deterrent.

I have also found (thanks to Cootz info) that worm farm leachate has been enough on its own to deal with 99% of the mites.

 

[YosemiteSam]

For the record...

Dumped all the no-till pots for an aeration amendment,mineral,and food boost for the ROLS.

To each 10 gallons of recycled soil I added the following:

2 gallons pumice
1 cup fish meal
1 cup fish bone meal
1 cup kelp meal
1/2 cup crab shell meal
1/2 cup neem seed meal top dressed on every pot.
1 cup basalt dust
1 cup glacial rock dust
1/2 cup Azomite (because someone gave it to me)

Remixed and planted directly into..against my own advice....why?...because I just can't wait,and the soil has become such a complete living mass. I'm sure such small inputs of fish meal and kelp meal (the components that would give you trouble not being composted before use) will be just fine.

If this seems light on the fish and kelp for every ten gallons of mix,consider that this soil is now 3 years in use and the humic,bacterial,fungal level is up there.

Somewhere in mid-flower I may start to use a fish and kelp tea,on top of every watering using Coot's barley seed teas.

Life forms observed:

centipedes
blind soil thrips
pot worms
predatory soil thrips
red worms
earthworms
fungus gnats
soil mites

Gas

Care to share why you made this decision? I am curious if the soil got too tight for your taste or if you noticed it lacking something?

Nice collection of critters...sounds like you are really close to making this work for real.

 

[Microbeman]

Purely for the sake of due diligence be aware that spinosad can negatively impact some beneficials, especially wasps and bees and predatory thrips. I would hypothesize they also are negatory for rove beetles. Also not good for fish, crayfish or shellfish.

This product is highly toxic to bees exposed to direct treatment, drift or residues on blooming plants. Do not apply this product or allow it to drift to blooming plants if bees are visiting the treatment area. This product is harmful to parasitoids and predatory mites and slightly harmful to foliage-dwelling predators. Care should be taken when using this product in an integrated pest management program where users are relying on the presence of beneficial arthropods.

This product is highly toxic to aquatic invertebrates. Do not contaminate aquatic habitats, such as lakes, rivers, sloughs, ponds, coulees, prairie potholes, creeks, marshes, streams, reservoirs, and wetlands, when cleaning and rinsing spray equipment or containers.

Kills;

conifer sawfly larvae, eastern tent caterpillar, elm leaf beetle, gypsy moth, willow leaf beetle, thrips, leafroller,
http://msdssearch.dow.com/Published...h=ca/pdfs/noreg/010-21895.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

etc

Beneficial insects: Care must be taken when applying spinosad while honeybees are foraging; after residues dry (a few hours) it is far less toxic to bees (Bret et al. 1997). Spray droplets can also harm Trichogramma wasps and other parasitoids (Suh et al., 2000; Tillman and Mullrooney, 2000; Bret et al., 1997). However, once the deposits dry, they are generally safe for beneficial insects. Studies in sweet corn have shown spinosad to be very effective against the European corn borer, while conserving its natural enemy complex (Musser and Shelton, 2003).
Other non-targets: Effects of spinosad on earthworms and soil microorganisms have been investigated in the laboratory. Results indicated that application rates of 25-150 g/ha should not cause significant effect on soil microflora respiration. Earthworms were not very susceptible to spinosad (LD50 > 970 mg/kg, Jachetta 2001). There is little research on the impact of spinosad on insect soil detritivores and their predators, including ants and springtails. However, since some spinosad products are targeted against fire ants, a soil dwelling species, it is likely that there would be some impact against other soil fauna

http://web.pppmb.cals.cornell.edu/resourceguide/mfs/13spinosad.php

I've honestly found the best way to deal with bugs is bugs...proactively. The same as you inoculate with fungi or this or that, start some bug colonies. It may not be everyone's cup of tea. If you just have a few plants, like people have house plants, consider making friends with some jumping spiders

http://www.google.ca/search?q=jumpi...SigLoloA4&sqi=2&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=694

They make great little pets and they will gladly cruise your plant looking for treats. They enjoy being presented with the occasional fruit fly.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

This product is highly toxic to aquatic invertebrates. Do not contaminate aquatic habitats, such as lakes, rivers, sloughs, ponds, coulees, prairie potholes, creeks, marshes, streams, reservoirs, and wetlands, when cleaning and rinsing spray equipment or containers.

This is also true for neem & karanja oils, meals, leaves, bark & roots

 

[Gascanastan]

Care to share why you made this decision? I am curious if the soil got too tight for your taste or if you noticed it lacking something?

Nice collection of critters...sounds like you are really close to making this work for real.

Unfortunately the decision was purely financial...I can't afford any down time and my back up batch of soil just isn't up to par yet.

There just wasn't enough porosity,drainage was not good,water retention too high....regardless of the 'perched water table' examples you may seen.

Yes,the critters seem happy and balanced.

 

[W89]

Cootz whatya reckon?

http://www.naturallygoodfood.co.uk/Seeds_Organic/Chia_Seeds_500g

http://www.ethicalsuperstore.com/products/suma/suma-prepacks-organic-barley-grain-500g/

 

[RanchoDeluxe]

Any of you guys familiar with or use fossil shell flour? Is this an acceptable substitute for volcanic rock dust?

 

[Weyenot]

I don't want to buy living soil i am just trying to understand the concept better so i can direct some chem farmers towards ROS, but i am having difficulty explaining what are the identifying aspects of ROS containers (to a FARMER) so i framed the question that way.

IMHO i can mostly tell the soil has come alive be the presents of invertebrates.

I can get that; with different perspectives out there it can be helpful to be able to word things another way so someone can catch on. True, a farmer( further more one using chems! ) might have difficulty seeing the connection. I see similarities in healthy soil outside and in though; diverse life, a pleasant earthy smell, high humus content, good texture/consistency( not too compacted and not too loose ) - thats the best way I could describe it. If enough information is studied and practiced, the methods that produce these conditions start to make alot of sense; everything really is connected.
Thats awesome youre making the effort to share!!
Are they willing to experiment with the ideas you are talking about?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Any of you guys familiar with or use fossil shell flour? Is this an acceptable substitute for volcanic rock dust?

"Oyster Shell Powder" - almost guaranteed!

See if the bag doesn't read CaCO3 - 96.x%

 

[greenmatter]

fossil shell powder is easier to spell than diatomaceous earth ........ but it's the same thing

 

[bigshrimp]

To what extent are we sacrificing the diversity and functionality of the soil system by using products like neem and spinosad?

 

[Para-Brahman]

Nice thread! Seems the better of the forum have gathered up in one tight little place. I will look forward to conversing with like minds.

PB

 

[VortexPower420]

Well the soil conference is awesome, they presented some great Ideas and some sound ideas on enzyme systems and use of foliar sprays to make really healthy plants that will exude their excess fats in the soil to feed fungi and make stable complex Humic compounds. He believes this is one of the best ways to make stable humic compounds, as most compost except for static Bio-dynamic compost and Midwest bio systems. I guess Midwest has a regement of turning and applying inoculations to the piles to allow stable hummus to be built.

Favorite Quote "For most people soil pH is the tail that wags the dog." Just classic.

Also I am picking up 50 lb of Spanish River Carbonatite. Very interesting material. I have read through the info sheets and It seems it will replace limestone, Dolo, Gypsum, greensand, Azomite, rock phosphate clays and rock dusts. Interesting stuff.

I know maybe not replace, or maybe the literature I read (which they have on their web site http://www.borealagrominerals.com/) is pretty convincing on the power of this stuff. I will talk to the rep tomm. more in depth, they have some great claims and the citations to back it up.

 

[xmobotx]

damn i think i want some of that shit too

i see its a distributor site so you have to find a retailer in your area or who will ship {shipping probably cost more than the product too}

 

[Para-Brahman]

I have been using Down to Earth neem seed meal in my soil mix. Is there a better manufacturer of one that any of you know?

Thanks in advance.

PB