List of Recessive Traits

[Guest]

im really starting to not get the point of the thread. doenst each line have recessive traits depending on which ones are dominant? if so the one strains dominant trait could be anothers recessive right?

with so many variables how can there be any real answer?
if you had such a list would it do any good unless you grew the plants anyway?

cant one observe dominant and recessive traits?

i just dont get it.. lets pretend like there is a list for a minute. how will it help me?

 

[Brownpants]

High folks!
first Ill say this Could be a great and productive thread... But we should be grown up enuff, to agree to disagree.. as in genetics breeding in cannabis, so much is unknown, leaving lots of room for theory, if there is room for theory, theres not much room to say "youre wrong", but plenty of room to argue! if we can make our arguements productive, instead of personal, we can learn alot from one another...

Excellent statement OG Bub! Thanks for saying it. I am not as eloquent with words but feel the same way. This is mostly theory and speculation, until it is proven with test crosses and then verified by others making the same crosses. I am just trying to create a rough list of traits and then determine their dominance/recessiveness based on observations, some will be right and some will be wrong, but progress will be made.

Acidfire - Thanks for the link!

Zamalito & HothouseFlowers - Thanks for contributing, your experience is very valuable and I hope you both will stick around.

I think I read in Clarke's book he suspected plants potent in THC (or containing high % of THC) was the result of a recessive trait. I think he based it on observations that crossing these type of plants with other strains resulted in lower THC levels or lower potency.

I am going to try and find the original quote and post it.

 

[Guest]

This is mostly theory and speculation, until it is proven with test crosses and then verified by others making the same crosses. I am just trying to create a rough list of traits and then determine their dominance/recessiveness based on observations, some will be right and some will be wrong, but progress will be made.

Hmm, understood.

 

[-BG-]

Some plants have a unique leaf curl to them caused by Ph issues that I think might be a recessive trait. (PH sensitivity trait)

This kind of a leaf curling is also very common for many pure sativas if grown indoors (enviromental reason)....like said before, also overfeeding can cause this....Mite invasion can also make leaves curl like this....


-BG-

 

[Daytripper]

There is no list of recessive traits because the traits we are most concerned about are not controlled by a single gene.

Potency is not simple dominant or recessive, if it were we would not have the variation we experience in potency today.If it were only dominant or recessive we would only have low potency and high potency, with no intermediate potency.


THC (or containing high % of THC) was the result of a recessive trait. I think he based it on observations that crossing these type of plants with other strains resulted in lower THC levels or lower potency.

Clark said that crossing a low potency parent with a high potency parent results in plants of intermediate potency and that selfing the "cross" will result in transgessive segregants that are extra potent.

This does not mean potency is recessive it indicates that potency is polygenic/ multigenic/ quantitative, involves many genes.

Further proof is produced by the fact that backcrossing progeny to the higher potency parent produces plants that will be even more potent than the high potency parent. Transgressive segregation.

BX'ing to the lower potency parent will lower potency below the low potency parent.

Plants with the desired potency levels are then selected to be used in a breeding program, breeding involves more that 1 cross.

That was written about ~ a decade ago in the international journal of hemp, an article on how to lower the potency of hemp it also outlined one hacker simple way potency can be increased.

Even this is too simple , its not just thc levels its also terpenes that modulate the psychic effects of thc.

I'm thrilled to see people learning, the future generations are count

 

[Brownpants]

Here is the statement about THC and other cannibinoids I was talking about last night....(My memory was a little off....must have been something I smoked.)

"Beutler and der Marderosian (1978) analyzed the F1 offspring of the controlled cross C. Sativa (Mexico-high THC) X C. ruderalis (Russia-low THC) and found that they fell into two groups intermediate between the parents in THC level. This indicates that THC production is most likely controlled by more than one gene. Also the F1 hybrids of lower THC (resembling the staminate parent) were twice as frequent as the higher THC hybrids (resembling the pistillate parent). More research is needed to learn if THC production in Cannabis is associated with the sexual type of the high THC parent or if high THC characteristics are recessive." (Clarke, Robert C. Marijuana Botany)

There is a lot of good information in this paragraph.

-BP-

 

[Brownpants]

There is no list of recessive traits because the traits we are most concerned about are not controlled by a single gene.

Can you provide any proof of that? Referenced material would be nice. It would save me a lot of time and effort.

Potency is not simple dominant or recessive,

Your right, I shouldn't have said potency. It is a subjective word, potent strains to one person might not be potent to another. I should have stated THC % instead, or CBN % or CBD %. Potency is like a cocktail drug, lots of different chemicals working together. Isn't there something like 70 different natural cannibinoids and 150 different aromatic turpenes found in cannabis all working together.

that selfing the "cross" will result in transgessive segregants that are extra potent.

I don't remember that part, what page was that on?

transgressive segregation. A segregation pattern in which the segregants exceed the limits of the parents. I think it is a little too early to jump to conclusions about this. I was just trying to focus on the easy things first, that is why I picked recessive traits, they stand out more, people will notice them more, they are generally less common.

This does not mean potency is recessive it indicates that potency is polygenic/ multigenic/ quantitative, involves many genes.

Yeah "Potency" bad word to use. Got it.

It seems potency is the only thing you are concerned about Daytripper. Cannabis has alot more to offer than just potency. Not that Potency is irrelevant, I just don't think it is the only thing breeders strive for.

I am going to compile a list of traits and their corresponding influences regardless of what others say. I am hoping to do this as an "open source" project that could help others and save time rather than in private with my own meager observations.

-BP-

 

[Guest]

where does chemotype stand with genetics?>

 

[Daytripper]

Originally Posted by Daytripper
There is no list of recessive traits because the traits we are most concerned about are not controlled by a single gene.

Learn Mendel's understanding of genetics then go beyond Mendel into Quantitative genetics.

Can you provide any proof of that? Referenced material would be nice. It would save me a lot of time and effort.

Originally Posted by Daytripper
Potency is not simple dominant or recessive

Your right, I shouldn't have said potency. It is a subjective word, potent strains to one person might not be potent to another. I should have stated THC % instead, or CBN % or CBD %. Potency is like a cocktail drug, lots of different chemicals working together. Isn't there something like 70 different natural cannibinoids and 150 different aromatic turpenes found in cannabis all working together.

I never said you shouldn't of said potency.

The amount of thc is not simply based on bt or bd allele but on the huge number of alleles involved in cbg production coupled with terpenes.

Originally Posted by Daytripper
that selfing the "cross" will result in transgessive segregants that are extra potent.

I don't remember that part, what page was that on?

You don't remember because you failed to post which of Clark's writings you referenced, dude I also failed to list my reference.

Here is my reference -

"From the F2 hybrid generation selections can be made for parents which are used to start new true-breeding strains. Indeed, F2 hybrids might appear with more extreme characteristics than either of the P~ parents. (For example, P1 high-THC X P1 low-THC yields F1 hybrids
of intermediate THC content. Selfing the F1 yields F2 hybrids, of both P1 [high and low THC] phenotypes, intermediate F1 phenotypes, and extra-high THC as well as extra-low THC phenotypes.)" -
Marijuana Botany
An Advanced Study: The Propagation and Breeding of Distinctive Cannabis

by Robert Connell Clarke

Chapter 3 - Genetics and Breeding of Cannabis

This is way too advanced for beginners, requires huge numbers...

transgressive segregation. A segregation pattern in which the segregants exceed the limits of the parents. I think it is a little too early to jump to conclusions about this. I was just trying to focus on the easy things first, that is why I picked recessive traits, they stand out more, people will notice them more, they are generally less common.

NO.

You are partialy correct , a person first needs to comprehend recessive / dominant gene actions
codominant
incomplete dominance
additive
overdominance
and epistasis before moving on to quantitative genetics.

This does not mean potency is recessive it indicates that potency is polygenic/ multigenic/ quantitative, involves many genes.

Yeah "Potency" bad word to use. Got it.

It seems potency is the only thing you are concerned about Daytripper. Cannabis has alot more to offer than just potency. Not that Potency is irrelevant, I just don't think it is the only thing breeders strive for.

Potency is not the most important quantitative trait in my book.

Do most seed buyers seek out potency or low potency seeds?

If potency was of no importance to me I could buy hemp seeds for 75 canadian per 50lb sack.

I am going to compile a list of traits and their corresponding influences regardless of what others say. I am hoping to do this as an "open source" project that could help others and save time rather than in private with my own meager observations.

-BP-

BP don't take my post wrong. Cannabis is more complex than mendels peas.We need to understand all that mendel taught to advance to Quantitative genetics.

What you want is called gene linkage map, genes are transfered in blocks and a desired trait is linked to other traits easly recogonized.

where does chemotype stand with genetics?

The bt and bd alleles are codominant, segregating in the F2 @ 1:2:1 or bt: bt/bd :bd.



brownpants;

Would you prefer I communicate to my cousins in PM or open forum?

I learned by being corrected in open forum then study.

The only shame is in refusing to learn.

Unless I am requested to take part in this thread , I won't post here again.

Am I the only one in this thread with college level text books?

They cost as little as $90.- $210 each. I own many. Take classes at the nearest univeristy. You can edit the class.

You could piss me off , I'll delete my posts and leave you like I found you , needing information. I've deleted very valuable info before.

Don't count on me posting, take it upon your self to advance in knowledge as you have in growing.

If I spoke to everything in this thread I would need to write 10 pages and even that would not cover this subject. Some to answer questions asked and expand.



I really mean this , good luck.


I'll leave you with this:
"The work of Menzel (1964) presents us with a crude map of the chromosomes of Cannabis, Chromosomes 2-6 and 9 are distinguished by the length of each arm. Chromosome 1 is distinguished by a large knob on one end and a dark chromomere 1 micron from the knob. Chromosome 7
is extremely short and dense, and chromosome 8 is assumed to be the sex chromosome. In the future, chromosome mapping will enable us to picture the location of the genes influencing the phenotype of Cannabis. This will enable geneticists to determine and manipulate the important characteristics contained in the gene pool. For each trait the number of genes in control will be known, which chromosomes carry them, and where they are located
along those chromosomes."

 

[Guest]

no need for the quote line attack thing...

i asked my question if you had any real desire to make it right you would simply answer it and only let what applys to you get thru

its clear you read every ounce and disected and had a thought for each word all arguments end the same and no one is correect when it gets to this point...

so youve endured all this for what? i stoped reading every little thing and taking offence to every little thing got a summary of whats going on and look where i am.

no better off without the hastle..

 

[Guest]

u wanna share knowledge experiance love peace tranquility all that come here.
but dont come here to share pain, please.


im talking to everyone me too

 

[Brownpants]

Daytripper - Has it occurred to you that you might be wrong?

You are wrong about my age. You are wrong about my level of education. You are wrong to assume all genes are linked. You are wrong about genetics and breeding being too advanced for beginners. You are wrong to think you know everything.

You make too many assumptions and it will hurt you in the long run.


Honestly, I don't know why this thread is attracting so many trolls.

Must have struck a nerve or something.

 

[Brownpants]

My referenced quote from Clarke is in post #46.

make note of the last sentence.

Strange you didn't see it there Daytripper, must have been working on your reply for a long time.

 

[Guest]

i think he has me on ignor so could somone quote my last few posts maybe it will ease him up a bit...

every action has a reaction and right here and now is when it counts and shows.

every damn one of us knows when were typin edgy stuff as it leaves our finger im sure brownpants anticipated his last few posts as i did mine. but to each different goals?

it would be appreciated none the less guys

 

[Daytripper]

post #42
I think I read in Clarke's book he suspected plants potent in THC (or containing high % of THC) was the result of a recessive trait. I think he based it on observations that crossing these type of plants with other strains resulted in lower THC levels or lower potency.

I am going to try and find the original quote and post it.

In my first post #45, I responded to your statement in post #42, I see no reference.

Read your post carefully , you failed to give a reference until post #46.

I never said breeding was too complicated, I said that in order to understand the more complicated issues that one first needs basic knowledge.

Rather than argue I just won't post in this thread, later I'll delete my posts and let you go on your merry way.Your loss.


NepHaze I never atttacked you, reread my post I directed my statement to brownpants, even using his name.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

If no one has a list of Recessive Traits then how about a list of Dominate Traits? Or Co-Dominate Traits? Or sex linked Traits, Dominate or Recessive to Male or Female?
-SamS

 

[zamalito]

That's a great idea. Since dominance is relative it could be as simple as using < > = symbols. Like:

Bt = Bd

Normal leaflets > ducksfoot leaflets

Undeformed leaf > blueberry line leaf deformity

Of course it is necesary to split the desired phenotype into whatever traits it is composed of. Like daytripper said something like overall thc production is composed of many traits of which there are sometimes multiple genes controlling the expression of. However we can at least start simple and with what we know and go from there. This could be very constructive. The subject of genetic contol of cannabinoid production is something daytripper is quite knowledgeable of and I'd love to hear what you have to say about the various cannabinoids. Since very few of us have access to gc/ms analysis it is necesary to use the published research of others but it is available online.

 

[Brownpants]

If no one has a list of Recessive Traits then how about a list of Dominate Traits? Or Co-Dominate Traits? Or sex linked Traits, Dominate or Recessive to Male or Female?
-SamS

For every recessive trait observed there will be a corresponding dominant trait that will also be identified. I picked recessive traits because they stand out more and are easier to discover from observations. Recessive traits are things that disappear when crosses are made between 2 IBL strains to make a F1 hybrid, or traits that show up in a F2 generations in low percentages. It has to do with ratios when speaking of F2 generations.

Co-dominant and incomplete dominant genes will also be identified along the way, they are genes that produce intermediate results, halfway between the two parental traits.

I do not believe sex linked genes associated with the "Y" chromosome will be of much value to us. They will be characteristics linked only to the "Y" chromosome and will show up only in males and will not be passed on to females.
Sex linked Genes associated with the "X" chromosome will be of more value to us because these genes will be passed on to the female plants we are to cultivate. Recessive "X" linked genes will predominantly show up in more males compared to females. Ex) Whorled Phyllotaxy

Whorled phyllotaxy is associated with subsequent anomalies in the growth cycle (i.e., multiple leaflets and flattened or clubbed stems). Also, most whorled plants are staminate and whorled phyllotaxy may be sex-linked. (Clarke, R.C. Marijuana Botany)

Dominate or Recessive to Male or Female? I am assuming you are talking about traits that are thought to be influenced by the sex of the parents involved in the cross? Ex) males are responsible for purple colouring (not real example) It would be interesting to speculate about this but very hard to prove. You would need a way to make the females and males of the crosses involved identical for everything except the sex chromosome. The cross pollination would then be done and then reversed for the sexes doing the gamete donations. You would need very very homozygous IBL strains for this experiment.

-BP-

 

[Brownpants]

Zamalito - Too bad GC/mass specs are so expensive, otherwise we all could help determine the chemotypes of different strains. I think Sam "The Skunkman" has one. Maybe he could provide some of the data he has accumulated?

But, there are still things we can observe regarding THC production. For example there is a positive correlation between trichome numbers and the amount of THC in a strain. This makes sense since trichomes are where all the glandular resin production happens. But, are the genes responsible for trichome numbers recessive? Dominant? linked to other traits? I don't know, maybe someone who has made a cross between a really "Frosty" landrace Indica with a not so "Frosty" Sativa can tell us what the results of this F1 hybrid were?
Lots of Frost? Hardly any Trichomes? Or somewhere in between? The types of trichomes passed on to the next generation would also be of interest. These are the traits I am interested in because most don't have a GC/MS or a NMR to identify the chemicals in a strain.

I am interested in phenotypic traits (things I can see) rather than chemotypic traits. (don't have the tools)

-BP-

 

[Guest]

In my first post #45, I responded to your statement in post #42, I see no reference.

Read your post carefully , you failed to give a reference until post #46.

I never said breeding was too complicated, I said that in order to understand the more complicated issues that one first needs basic knowledge.

Rather than argue I just won't post in this thread, later I'll delete my posts and let you go on your merry way.Your loss.


NepHaze I never atttacked you, reread my post I directed my statement to brownpants, even using his name.

we can all tell eachother to re read eachother posts all day hehe

i could tell ya to re read mine or just get out with it and say: i never felt attacked brother

good luck thread