lets us ( pray ) I mean let us talk about pH

[JackTheGrower]

I checked in/out pH yesterday even though "pH doesn't matter" in organic gardening haha! I was curious what the pH readings would be in an organic system as opposed to my previous growing method (store bought soil + chemical fertz).

In a maintained soil such as mine the cheapy soil Ph meter tells me it stays around 6.5 6.8 if we can trust that cheap thing.

I do brew fresh coffee, kelp meal and add fish emulsion then water without concern to pH.

So the concept that a healthy living soil food web handles pH I feel is true from simple observation.

For the record I was just helping a new friend by opening a thread on his question and hoping to solicit different points of view for the new friend.

So simple pH management in a soil Dolomite lime seems to be the most useful from what I know.

Is this true from your experiences?

The other point I wanted to make for friend is that while we can add materials such as dolomite lime or oyster shell not only does the chemical nature effect a pH reading it also supplies some of the needed nutrients.

I have come to add a bit of Oyster Shell here and there when i feed materials I know the biology will eat such as fresh ground coffee and rice ( C & N ) It seems logical to add calcium from the shell to a situation the biology can act on together in process with other materials.
I feel i add OS not so much as a chemical ( although I am aware that is has a chemical pH raising nature ) but as part of the "layer" of new soil.

Does this sound like an Organic method to follow?

Feed back on my ways are welcome..

 

[EatMoGrass]

I am wondering how many of these electronic ph meters does it take to get a trustworthy measurement?

Three years ago I owned two Milwaukee ph meters and both gave BS measurements even after calibration. But I trusted them for a while until I used them both in the same Rez. They both showed far different readings in the same Rez. I calibrated both again and had the same(incorrect) results.

I bought some paper test strips and found that both meters were off, and the first one read a PH 6.3 when the paper strips showed 5.0!

I had been unnecessarily dosing my clones with PH down causing unnecessary problems do to the fact that my meters were lying to me.

At first I thought to myself that I must now double check my meters with paper test strips every single time because they could no longer be trusted. Then I realized it would be much easier to just throw them away. And I did throw them away last year.

The clones I transplanted last night have never been PH'ed and have been fed compost tea every single watering including their time spent in my EZ-Clone. They are simply they healthiest clones I have ever seen in the 4+years I have had this EZ-Clone!

 

[JackTheGrower]

I snagged this chart and this is supposed to be the pH ranges for nutrients and Cannabis.

 

[Albertine]

I started out this first grow under the advice of someone who was into chem minerals and ph testing. As I'm moving towards an amended soil direction I have been testing ph and ec levels up the yin yang and am fascinated by what I see. I think it really can't hurt to know more about what one is feeding and watering - it can point the way when one is having any kind of nutrient issue. For example - Megaworm castings are around 5.5 in the bag I tested, where Yelm castings are around 7.5. Silica is really high, molasses is low. I'm using Drammatic fish hydrosalate as a ph down right now it's so strong in it's effect.. I just got some organic cal mag that's fermented and it's really low. One can choose foods based on where one's water ph is at and have a much more balanced situation that groping around in the dark. That said, organic soils are supposed to have a lot more buffering capacity, but like you say Scrogerman, if you are watering all the time with 8.2 it's gotta have an effect over time. Working with a base like peat that's low in the first place means one must add compensating factors - a good mix has to work because it's got a good ph.
I have been testing ppms too under the assumption that salt levels are salt levels, something to keep track of in terms of feeding. Guanos, k-mag, alfalfa, all are capable of burning at high levels.

So much I don't understand in terms of how heavily amended soils buffer salts, and maybe it's a lot less complicated than I'm making it, but I think it helps me a lot to know all I can about what each ingredient is because I can't keep to someone else's recipe to save my soul!

 

[JackTheGrower]

buddin- haha thanks I do know something about chem, although its been a little while since highschool AP.... Taken in the context of an organic grow, can you now see where I am coming from? Like... it doesnt matter at all.. except when it does? haha

CC- thanks for the clarification; what you are saying is pH is the business of those other guys who use all those new fangled tubes and buckets and valves and pumps 8)

I am going to be a huge pain in all of your asses, asking questions and such. Just fair warning.

You think you are bad now wait till we have to deal with your emails!

Hurry up on the 50.. maybe go over to Hydro and say "Organic Soil rules - Hydro Sucks" or something then reply to every post LOL

JUST KIDDING!

 

[EatMoGrass]

Anyone able to confirm this statement.

EDIT: Nm ya'll are useless for help, too busy inflating your e-peens.

I believe(but am not sure of) the bacterial "slime" is supposed to keep the bacteria at a PH of approx 7.0. From what little I know the aerobic bacteria are constantly doing their best to keep the PH where they like it. Go aerobic bacteria!

 

[JackTheGrower]

It's true that the life processes manage the pH! That is the beauty of Organic Soil!

Still if one's water is 8.0 I can see that causing issues over time.

Watering once with 8.o probably won't be a problem.

 

[VerdantGreen]

i stopped pH adjusting my water and lasted about a week before my more picky strains started suffering.

 

[Dignan]

Dignan,

Advising folks to learn as much as they can about their soil chemistry etc is good advice for all. But advising folks that certain parameters are unimportant will doom how many of us on average? It's not the same, not the same at all imo. It seems to me that certain folks just want to believe so bad that they couldn't possibly improve their soil plant outcomes but this is never the case is it. Flexible strategies based around inputs like pH monitoring is good advice for all grows, not just problematic sites. -Tom

I can only speak for myself here: you are dead wrong. I spend a couple hours every single day reading about soil biology, growing, nature, etc., in an attempt to always be improving my methods. And consider that I am a family man with a real job and living in a non-med state... I don't give up my hours easily. So I am very interested in improving my outcomes. I think the same is true of many people who you jump to this conclusion about.

My second point would be, unless you change the language you use when delivering your message, you will keep running into the same reactions from people. You may give a shit, you may not. But just keep in mind that there is a significant difference in the messages sent by the following two statements:

[Growers should]learn as much as they can about their soil chemistry

and

If you don't monitor pH, your plants will die.

Encouraging people to be model students isn't a bad thing; requiring them to be model students or else be called ignoramuses, not so good.

Now, to be fair, I also see the same sort of language used from the opposite side. People saying things like, "Fuck measuring pH! Buying a meter is for suckers!" or "pH doesn't matter." Those people, too, might be better served by choosing their language more carefully.

pH does matter; measuring pH doesn't always matter.

My blood needs to have a certain pH for optimal health, but my body regulates its own pH. I can drink a 1/2 cup of apple cider vinegar or eat a package of Tums and still be reasonably certain that an hour later my blood pH is going to still be within an optimal range because there are complex systems within the healthy human body that regulate pH, and a multitude of other variables.

I personally believe the same to be true of soil. If your soil is built with reasonable care and what you douse your soil with is also reasonable, the biota in the soil are going to regulate their own environment.

Now, take away foundational stuff they need to operate... like moisture or oxygen, or dump a bunch of crazy bottled ferts on them without having first mastered your solutions/ratios... and either immediately or over time, you will see problems.

I could ramble on and on and basically get nowhere because both sides of this debate really aren't hearing (or are choosing not to hear) the other side. Non-pH meter folks say "I don't worry about pH and you don't need to either as long as you cover these bases first..." and the Pro-pH meter folks hear "soil doesn't care about pH." Two COMPLETELY different notions.

And then Pro-pH meter folks say "pH doesn't matter! You need to learn about soil biology" and the Anti-pH meter folks hear "living soil cannot regulate its own pH... you can't trust nature... it's up to YOU to have a death grip on your controls and inputs... or perish!!" LOL

Both sides are being really picky about the exact language the other side uses, without willing to be equally picky about their own words.

 

[Dignan]

Bottom line for me is that my growing method works and I will always tell my friends (thinking locally here) that if they build a soil very similar to mine and they are using a good water source (which they may need to verify via meters initially), they will not need to monitor pH regularly. It works for me and it works well. If another person is using the same soil mix and good water, it should work for them, too.

If they want to purchase a meter and use it often, I won't call them ignoramuses or fools for doing so.

 

[Albertine]

No problems, no need to ph. Problems, then knowing your readings is really helpful in diagnosing - turning ta light on in a dark room. Know your materials, then you can cook. IMO.

 

[blwd67]

pH does matter; measuring pH doesn't always matter.

In five pages of posts this is the only thing that has really come of all the arguing.......

I would really like some advice (great advice, since I believe most of you are capable of offering it) but all I have heard so far is name calling and a complete inability to understand what eachother is saying.

If you test your soil, great. Why, when, how, and what benifits come of it? If not, great. How do you manage the pH? What great secrets are you all holding on to that make you so successful? Both sides of this internet crap fest have some awesome ideas, I am sure; the more senior of you probably have some amazing harvest under your belt, something I (and all the other noobs out there) would like to have also.

If you want to argue, fine... but do it in a way so the rest of us who would like to learn a thing or two can. Reading wiki and googling shit all day is nice, but hearing from real live active growers is the best way to learn new things.

Commence raping of new guy, but while your at it be constructive. Tell me to shut up and go do _________.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Ha! mud slinging by the new... We are raising the Kids in our image and they don't see it!

The bottom line is there is chemical reactions and at any moment in the soil's biological process a pH reeding can be taken. It's not like a chemical solution which is assumed to be in an absolute pH state because, Nature's biology is at work in soil.
Look how tight our pH range and how the Hyfro pH is..

We said that we buffer with dolomite and I take risks with Oyster Shell.

Some assumption of low pH due to bacterial decomposition and liquid and dry materials is expected but our focus is to keep soil in a range the Cannabis plant can uptake all nutrients. It's not so hard with organic soil really.

It is somewhat a harder task with Hydro so therefore the more paranoia on pH!!!

Have a look at the chart the difference between Hydro and Soil is obvious.

So as a safety while your soil is decomposing; assuming you feed it, dolomite is as close to a safety as a soil man can get IMO.

The Friends are all good in my book!

 

[blwd67]

Albertine, I like that you mentioned mixing and matching soil food for our own specific needs. While my water is pretty damn good (may I say so myself) I am interested in finding a good mix of nutrients that will keep me in an optimum range and keep my micro herd happy and healthy.

You said you use 'Drammatic fish hydrosalate' as a pH down, can you give any insight as to why this is necessary to your specific situation? Do you have basic water or do you prefer other nutrients with a higher pH and so use this to compensate?

 

[Chief]

Does anybody use gypsum instead of lime or with?

 

[Albertine]

If I add too much silica as a ph up then i need it to bring it back down! I'm new to all this and sloppy. My goal is to add stuff to the peat based soil that helps keep it in the 6s. I got the fish as a phosphorus source (2-4-1 for this brand), then when I started testing materials and found out how acid it was, I went to guano. It's totally not necessary to use that specifically, but I have it on the shelf. I have good but very soft water - 39ppm or so.
This forum has given me an enormous amount of information - I have no experience to back up any of my statements. It's amazing the information that is here!
Maybe if you find out what is being used successfully by other growers that have the same kind of water as you do?

 

[Dignan]

I can't tell you what others are doing that requires them to monitor pH regularly (except for VerdantGreen... homie has tap water with a pH of 9). I can only tell you what I do and that I do it without a pH meter. If you want my soil mix and feeding regimen, hit me up.

 

[blwd67]

Albertine- So you only used it when you effed up with to much silica? The way I understand it is if you are good from the get go (soil mix) you should be relatively good for the durration, provided your water isnt wicked fucked. If, though, I were to choose a nutrient with a very high or low pH then ammending that with an opposite would help? Or is sticking to somewhat acidic solutions and just having dolemite in the mix a better way to go.

Dig, sent you a visitor message, cant do anything until I have fifty... Thanks for the offer, would you be willing to post any (if you have any) pH related additives to this thread?

 

[guest2012y]

Wow.......
I've been on both sides of the ph fence in the last 20 years of growing.
I've had healthy crops one after another for years using both types of growing.
I'm definitely prefering to leave the meter alone nowadays and build soil that takes care of the issue for me and leave the arguing to someone else.
Did grandma use a ph meter in her garden in 1930?....1910?.....1896? What makes Cannabis all of a sudden in the last 30 years a plant that must be tested with ph meters to have a good crop?
Did the cats in some tucked away spot in Afghanistan growing it for hundreds of years have a ph meter?
I understand that most of us are taking an outdoor plant then running it through controlled cycles AND replicating a natural soil that supports life forms which may not do so well in a 3 gallon pot,but we are doing it...and it is working. If I have a problem,I correct it and learn more about indoor organic soil.
Then again I use topsoil and do all kinds of stuff that others may not do..WHY?,because I can.

 

[blwd67]

When you say top soil do you mean that stuff I buy for my flower beds when I need to build it up a bit? What all kinds of stuff?