lets us ( pray ) I mean let us talk about pH

[Dignan]

TomHill poking a sensitive issue with a stick? Dude pokes with a bayonet. Calling people fools and ignoramuses is not very productive. His methods differ from other peoples' and for some reason he can't abide that so he makes personal attacks all in the name of "saving novice growers from imminent disaster." Been watching it for years.

 

[SecretGardener]

I checked in/out pH yesterday even though "pH doesn't matter" in organic gardening haha! I was curious what the pH readings would be in an organic system as opposed to my previous growing method (store bought soil + chemical fertz).

In pH (watering)
Before watering with my EWC+Molasses tea I checked some pH values. The water I used was rain water which checked out to have a pH of like 6.5. I then added some EWC+Molasses and brewed the tea for 26 hours. I checked the pH of the tea which turned out to be like 7.5 or higher (hard to tell color, don't have a pH pen but it was definitely alkaline). I assumed (here we go with the assuptions) the higher pH was due to the bacterial bloom. I unfortunately do not have a microscope so I was unable to tell the bacteria:fungi ratio.

Out pH (runoff)
I watered my seedlings until I started to see some runoff. I captured this runoff, tested it's pH and the result was around 6.0-6.3. I really didn't know what to expect.

My question is how do you know the soil's actual pH short of getting a meter? Can you infer the soil pH from the in/out values?

I know 'chasing pH' is a known cause for insanity but as stated I will check periodically out of curiousity and thats about it.

 

[Maj.Cottonmouth]

How are people checking the pH of their soil?

 

[Zendo]

What ever happened to keep it simple?

I guess I'm with the 'minority' around here..I do own a ph pen, but it's for making Lacto B. cultures..

I simply make a balanced system inside my containers, and let nature do it's thing..

You would wonder how all the plants and trees in the world grow without people running out to check CEC,Ph, etc..

Sometimes it seems the hardest thing for people to do, is stay out of their own way.

 

[Scrogerman]

SecretG, I know in water solutions that a Bacterial Bloom causes PH to Drop Down not UP, & it goes down rather swiftly too, im talking hydro there, so is this different in Organics, i doubt it, but id be interested to find out for sure! Bacteria thrive in a more acid enviroment & Fungi a more Alkaline, thats what i thought!

Theres no way im giving my 8.4 tap to MJ either~! Ive seen the harvest result & it aint pretty! Alot of people are lucky & have much lower Tap PH, like 7.2 or something!, my Rain water is good though at 7, just cant collect enough of it!

 

[*mistress*]

these may be helpful:

Coco and pH, what do you like yours set at?

ph testing

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.ph...&postcount=144

 

[Zendo]

HC, What your are basing those statements on though is bullshit, that's what I am saying, that you've been duped by ignoramuses. Where did you get the idea that pH doesn't matter in organics? Organics may suffer a pH fool a bit longer but it probably matters doubly to anyone truly concerned with the issue long term. I can show you 25 year old soils built and based on a long term strategies that blow out of the water anything they've ever accomplished. WTF exactly are these other guys showing you? A 3 month old plant that managed to hobble along with the help of band aids is all I can see. Hot air.

yikes.

well, I can show you soil that's been around for hundreds of millions of years that will blow that 25 year old soil out of the water, and it's never seen a human, let alone a ph or cec pen..

I guess all us non-gadget using "ignoramuses" should just go home and toss out all of our worthless medicine..or not..

I can assure you, I've got some 'band aid' bud that would knock your socks off, and at least get you to chill out some..

<zing>but maybe my genetics are better than yours?? </zziiing>

 

[NUG-JUG]

TomHill poking a sensitive issue with a stick? Dude pokes with a bayonet. Calling people fools and ignoramuses is not very productive. His methods differ from other peoples' and for some reason he can't abide that so he makes personal attacks all in the name of "saving novice growers from imminent disaster." Been watching it for years.

I got that vibe too man..like he was trying to scare everyone who doesn't PH...I mean yea your water is ridiculously alkaline add some acid but it ain't the end of the world if you don't..He didn't really say anything besides insults. I'm no OG of this forum, but I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. He didn't give a care or even had heard of Gil Caradang or the work he's done with BIM, and Lacto B. Which is surprising considering he's a 'master soil builder..'

 

[Tom Hill]

Dark Mind,

Many microbes are not able to do much in an inhospitable environment is the point. If we had a community of folks that were dropping dead due to poor water quality etc, the answer is not to breed more folks from outside to keep the working population up, that is a band aid, a non cure. Organic farms and regular folks (site A) that get away with such practices for any length of time are not up against the same level of problems that may exist at site B, and that is how they get away with it.

Dignan,

My methods differ according to goals and they are very often tailored to site by necessity. That's how it works once you've been around a bit. Take the one-size-fits-all advisory council away from their cozy site (A) and into problem land and watch their knowledge base crumble while their soil/plants just die. That is reality and I've been watching it for decades, so yeah, it gets under my skin.

 

[In~Plain~Site]

Viable compost, viable EWC, viable humus - who f*cking cares about PH?

Just a thought as usual.

CC

This

 

[VerdantGreen]

i would most definitely agree that there is no blanket answer to the question of how much you need to worry about pH in organics, it all depends on your local criteria and your inputs.
anyone who doesnt believe me - try watering a grow using JUST high alkalinity pH 9 water on your plants, no added stuff that conveniently lowers your pH like LK, and show me the results.

VG

 

[Dignan]

Dignan,

My methods differ according to goals and they are very often tailored to site by necessity. That's how it works once you've been around a bit. Take the one-size-fits-all advisory council away from their cozy site (A) and into problem land and watch their knowledge base crumble while their soil/plants just die. That is reality and I've been watching it for decades, so yeah, it gets under my skin.

Your advice is also one-size-fits-all, though in a different sense. In effect, you are saying to everyone that if they don't monitor pH, their grow will suffer. That is simply not the case. The more prudent advice to new growers (or those starting their garden over with new variables, new location, new water, new soil mix) is: be aware of your water source and be sure your soil mix is sound.

Once a person knows their water source falls within certain parameters and isn't variable (like mine) and they understand soil biology (like me), they most definitely can put the pH monitoring equipment away and still grow 100% healthy plants with 100% quality end product.

Your litany here is "Only fools don't monitor pH... monitor pH or your garden will perish." That's one-size-fits-all advice and is simply not true. You're a smart guy and I have a hard time believing that you don't already realize that monitoring pH is only necessary when variables present themselves; it feels to me like you just enjoy the arguments.

 

[Dignan]

i would most definitely agree that there is no blanket answer to the question of how much you need to worry about pH in organics, it all depends on your local criteria and your inputs.
anyone who doesnt believe me - try watering a grow using JUST high alkalinity pH 9 water on your plants, no added stuff that conveniently lowers your pH like LK, and show me the results.

VG

This goes both way though, VG. See my post above. Blanket advice is blanket advice. Teaching growers to be careless isn't responsible, but neither is teaching growers to be unnecessarily fearful.

I have a feeling that, given your knowledge and green thumb, if you yourself weren't stuck with a crappy local water source, you would very rarely pay any attention to pH. You monitor pH because you have to, since your local tap water is wonky.

 

[Cool Moe]

I can't speak for TomHill or Clackamas Coot as both of these guys possess knowledge way way way beyond my level. But I think what may be getting lost in the back and forth is the critical importance of creating an organic soil mix that has the optimum pH level (6.3 to 6.8). How do you know if you don't test it? I made my first soil mix last fall and thought I had it dialed in but never tested pH. Early in flower I had some deficiencies and major yellowing. So I checked the pH and it was around 8.0, still not sure how it got so high. Sure my plants finished, but not nearly to their potential. So I revamped my mix and now it tests to 6.5 at the start and still 6.5 at the halfway point and all my plants are thriving. If I'd never tested ph I would still be trying to grow in 8.0. Just my opinion but with the plethora of recipes and ingredients available, it makes good sense to pH test your soil mix, especially when getting started.

 

[VerdantGreen]

This goes both way though, VG. See my post above. Blanket advice is blanket advice. Teaching growers to be careless isn't responsible, but neither is teaching growers to be unnecessarily fearful.

I have a feeling that, given your knowledge and green thumb, if you yourself weren't stuck with a crappy local water source, you would very rarely pay any attention to pH. You monitor pH because you have to, since your local tap water is wonky.

you are right dig , once you know your constants and variables then i would imagine 90% of people will be able to proceed without worrying about pH. with mine i know the drill so well now that i know how much citric acid to add to my watering can without really having to bother measuring every time.

 

[Tom Hill]

Dignan,

Advising folks to learn as much as they can about their soil chemistry etc is good advice for all. But advising folks that certain parameters are unimportant will doom how many of us on average? It's not the same, not the same at all imo. It seems to me that certain folks just want to believe so bad that they couldn't possibly improve their soil plant outcomes but this is never the case is it. Flexible strategies based around inputs like pH monitoring is good advice for all grows, not just problematic sites. -Tom

 

[SecretGardener]

Bacteria thrive in a more acid enviroment & Fungi a more Alkaline, thats what i thought!

Haha I thought it was the reverse! Here is where smoking cannabis is counter productive to growing cannabis because I can't remeber what I learn! I know I read somewhere (I think?) that bacteria emit their own bioslime and even if the pH is slightly off it doesn't effect them, and the slime can even change the pH? Was I dreaming or did I really read this lol...But, I'm a newb so don't listen to me I was merely posting my findings pertaining to pH.

 

[VerdantGreen]

I can't speak for TomHill or Clackamas Coot as both of these guys possess knowledge way way way beyond my level. But I think what may be getting lost in the back and forth is the critical importance of creating an organic soil mix that has the optimum pH level (6.3 to 6.8). How do you know if you don't test it? I made my first soil mix last fall and thought I had it dialed in but never tested pH. Early in flower I had some deficiencies and major yellowing. So I checked the pH and it was around 8.0, still not sure how it got so high. Sure my plants finished, but not nearly to their potential. So I revamped my mix and now it tests to 6.5 at the start and still 6.5 at the halfway point and all my plants are thriving. If I'd never tested ph I would still be trying to grow in 8.0. Just my opinion but with the plethora of recipes and ingredients available, it makes good sense to pH test your soil mix, especially when getting started.

the party line here in the organics forum is to add dolomite lime to your soil as a buffer (and for other good reasons), and i agree with it, but given that it will only raise pH and not lower it, this imo makes it all the more important to make sure the water you are using has a pH below 7 - then you know that the pH will sweep from where you put it back up to 7, and passing thorough the optimum absorbtion pH for most nutrients in the process.

but as long as whatever you are doing is working , then thats great

VG

 

[DARC MIND]

Dark Mind,

Many microbes are not able to do much in an inhospitable environment is the point.

so compost and or feeding the soil with compost/OM is a unhospitable environment? tell me what to u is a hospital envirnment for beneficial microbes? or plants to grow in general?
from my knowledge when we compost, we culture beneficial soil/plant microbes in a aerobic environment, who convert organic material into living plant available, soil building/conditioner black gold. how many microbes are found in a hand full of compost again?
but yes, inhospitable.
i agree with all, if u think u need to check ph do it, if u think u can fine tune with ph by all means but if ur happy and ur not phing then ur gold.
ther are many ways to skin a kat my friend, many dont grow in ur site a b or c yet alone grow with ur beliefs. we arnt stomping on ur methods so lets keep this criticism productive please. (speaking of ur previous post)

darc

 

[SecretGardener]

Haha I thought it was the reverse! Here is where smoking cannabis is counter productive to growing cannabis because I can't remeber what I learn! I know I read somewhere (I think?) that bacteria emit their own bioslime and even if the pH is slightly off it doesn't effect them, and the slime can even change the pH? Was I dreaming or did I really read this lol...But, I'm a newb so don't listen to me I was merely posting my findings pertaining to pH.

Anyone able to confirm this statement.

EDIT: Nm ya'll are useless for help, too busy inflating your e-peens.

Bacteria need a physiological pH inside their cells,
just like all other living organisms. Their ability to
survive in extreme pH (either high or low) depends on
their ability to correct for the difference between
inside and out. One example of a bacterium that can
live in acidic environments is Helicobacter pylori
which lives in the stomach. It produces high amounts
of urease which is an enzyme that degrades urea, and
by doing so decreases the acidity (raises the pH).
Imagine the bacteria produce a 'cloud' of neutral pH
around them to protect them from the acidic
environment.