lets us ( pray ) I mean let us talk about pH

[cyber echo]

pH = -log[H+]

Essentially, means that pH is a logarithmic representation of the concentration of H+ in a solution (mol/L). (For those who don't know chemistry, H+ is hydrogen without an electron, essentially a free proton)

One should note that logarithm is not a linear scale, so a solution of ph 5 has twice as much acid as ph 7. As a result, the rate at which pH increases or decreases is not steady, ie. two drops of ph- won't do double the effect of one drop.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Earlier today I was at a typical 'grow store' with the obligatory Village Idiot managing the shop. A customer came in and asked about 'CeC' (cation exchange capacity) as it relates to coco coir - fair enough.

As this moron prattled on and on about a subject he knew absolutely nothing about, he made the statement "Coir is preferred because of it's high CeC!"

Uh huh.

Peat moss has a CeC of 100+ and Coconut Coir comes in at 80.

So much for 'previous knowledge' via the tomes written by Whore-Hey! and Ed.

Interesting but little else.

CC

 

[JackTheGrower]

Wow.. Gotta sleep now but wouldn't pH is.. a range of blah to blah be basic?
I don't know but I see folks not understanding pH and that's all I meant.

There is Wikipedia..

In chemistry, pH is a measure of the acidity or basicity of a solution. It approximates but is not equal to p[H], the negative logarithm (base 10) of the molar concentration of dissolved hydronium ions (H3O+); a low pH indicates a high concentration of hydronium ions, while a high pH indicates a low concentration. Crudely, this negative of the logarithm matches the number of places behind the decimal point, so for example 0.1 molar hydrochloric acid should be near pH 1 and 0.0001 molar HCl should be near pH 4 (the base 10 logarithms of 0.1 and 0.0001 being -1, and -4, respectively). Pure water is neutral, and can be considered either a very weak acid or a very weak base (center of the 0 to 14 pH scale), giving it a pH of 7 (at 25 °C (77 °F)), or 0.0000001 M H+.[1] For an aqueous solution to have a higher pH, a base must be dissolved in it, which binds away many of these rare hydrogen ions. Hydrogen ions in water can be written simply as H+ or as hydronium (H3O+) or higher species (e.g. H9O4+) to account for solvation, but all describe the same entity.

However, pH is not precisely p[H], but takes into account an activity factor. This represents the tendency of hydrogen ions to interact with other components of the solution, which affects among other things the electrical potential read using a pH meter. As a result, pH can be affected by the ionic strength of a solution - for example, the pH of a 0.05 M potassium hydrogen phthalate solution can vary by as much as 0.5 pH units as a function of added potassium chloride, even though the added salt is neither acidic nor basic.[2]

Unfortunately, hydrogen ion activity coefficients cannot be measured directly by any thermodynamically sound method, so they are based on theoretical calculations. Therefore the pH scale is defined in practice as traceable to a set of standard solutions whose pH is established by international agreement.[3] Primary pH standard values are determined by the Harned cell, a hydrogen gas electrode, using the Bates-Guggenheim Convention.

Pure water is said to be neutral, with a pH close to 7.0 at 25 °C (77 °F). Solutions with a pH less than 7 (at 25 °C (77 °F)) are said to be acidic and solutions with a pH greater than 7 (at 25 °C (77 °F)) are said to be basic or alkaline. pH measurements are important in medicine, biology, chemistry, food science, environmental science, oceanography, civil engineering and many other applications.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH

Like I posted Basic conversation.. bbiab!

 

[High Country]

No offense HC but WTF are you on about? Folks gained a 1930's knowledge out of Japan from Coot and they can also research mountains of material on how pH effects the life cycle of various microbes (among MANY other soil processes) and come to their own conclusions. I assure you even a third grader will come up with something vastly different than "pH doesn't matter", lol.

I never said pH doesn't matter I just haven't checked it in the past. I know different pH can affect the uptake of nutrients. I know your work and it is fascinating. I entered this thread on the hope of learning something from experienced members about pH so I can apply it to my grows even though this is in Organic Soil.

My main grows are hydro but all my mums are in soil. So far in this thread I have learned nothing but will continue to read in the hope I will get some answers and not have to listen to two blokes involved in a public slanging match. Regards.

 

[Tom Hill]

HC, What your are basing those statements on though is bullshit, that's what I am saying, that you've been duped by ignoramuses. Where did you get the idea that pH doesn't matter in organics? Organics may suffer a pH fool a bit longer but it probably matters doubly to anyone truly concerned with the issue long term. I can show you 25 year old soils built and based on a long term strategies that blow out of the water anything they've ever accomplished. WTF exactly are these other guys showing you? A 3 month old plant that managed to hobble along with the help of band aids is all I can see. Hot air.

 

[High Country]

HC, What your are basing those statements on though is bullshit, that's what I am saying, that you've been duped by ignoramuses. Where did you get the idea that pH doesn't matter in organics? Organics may suffer a pH fool a bit longer but it probably matters doubly to anyone truly concerned with the issue. I can show you 25 year old soils built and based on a long term strategy, WTF exactly are these other guys showing you? A 3 month old plant that managed to hobble along with the help of band aids is all I can see. Hot air. -T

Read my comments, I never said it doesn't matter, I just have not checked it OK. That's why I'm interested.

 

[VerdantGreen]

as someone who often feels a little isolated on the organics forum because i pH my water, its nice to know you can all have an argument about it without my help.

as a gardener i see the results of plants trying to grow in soil that is the wrong pH for them all the time - usually in the form of iron chlorosis.

and just to fan the flames a little anyone who is using humic/fulvic acid products like LK, or any bottled ferts, or compost tea etc etc, is also manipulating the pH of their water - just because you dont measure it doesnt mean you arent changing it.

VG

 

[Clackamas Coot]

anyone who is using humic/fulvic acid products like LK, or any bottled ferts, or compost tea etc etc, is also manipulating the pH of their water - just because you dont measure it doesnt mean you arent changing it.

VG

No argument from me on your analysis - as usual.

CC

 

[good drown]

hey tom, could you please check out this thread. i have a question about EC that i am sure you could help out with
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=3677017#post3677017

thanks

 

[Tom Hill]

I like the Oakton ec/low GD, and I use the ERGS calibration solution.

 

[High Country]

I think we have all been told, it was going a bit pear shaped for a while. Hopefully back on track now.

 

[Tom Hill]

In my opinion we should use our knowledge to develop the very best strategies - no sticky fits all, period.

Since we have the knowledge as to where our soils will thrive regarding pH, then we are fools to throw that knowledge away and I would not dare to advise anybody to do so.

I do not however advise the use of "pH up/down" strategies. But, do chose additives/feedings wisely based around our starting pH and our water supply. A brief example might be that if my soil or water was high pH, I would chose an acid food such as the Earth Juice lines, if it was neutral or below, I would choose a more pH neutral food etc as many do here and get away with it being born into luck. Simple, no big deal, but a very big deal over the long haul and don't let anybody tell you different. -T

 

[High Country]

In my opinion we should use our knowledge to develop the very best strategies - no sticky fits all, period.

Since we have the knowledge as to where our soils will thrive regarding pH, then we are fools to throw that knowledge away and I would not dare to advise anybody to do so.

I do not however advise the use of "pH up/down" strategies. But, do chose additives/feedings wisely based around our starting pH and our water supply. A brief example might be that if my soil or water was high pH, I would chose an acid food such as the Earth Juice lines, if it was neutral or below, I would choose a more pH neutral food etc as many do here and get away with it being born into luck. Simple, no big deal, but a very big deal over the long haul and don't let anybody tell you different. -T

Thanks.

 

[VerdantGreen]

also, its good to poke these sensitive issues with a stick now and again

VG

 

[Scrogerman]

My problem is my Tap PH, its 8.4+, now i normally wouldnt bother PHing liquid solutions for soil irrigation, but i have seen the results of my buddys that dont PH either & it aint pretty.
Its my understanding that constant irrigations with 8.4+ph'd water eventually cause the soil to become of a similar PH. Thats how it seems by the time some of my buddies come to harvest time! So now im PH'ing down to 6-6.3 & the plants seem to like it. The only thing thats bothing me atm is my plants are growing faster than i can re-pot them & some lower yellowing is happening. We'll get there in the end. Next time i mix a soil its going to have all the correct ammendments, including dolomite lime, i like the fact the Medium PH wont rise over 7 with the Dol Lime! Good Luck All!

MMmm Earth Juice, thats interesting, i wonder where that would leave my 8.4 tap, anyone?

 

[High Country]

My problem is my Tap PH, its 8.4+, now i normally wouldnt bother PHing liquid solutions for soil irrigation, but i have seen the results of my buddys that dont PH either & it aint pretty.
Its my understanding that constant irrigations with 8.4+ph'd water eventually cause the soil to become of a similar PH. Thats how it seems by the time some of my buddies come to harvest time! So now im PH'ing down to 6-6.3 & the plants seem to like it. The only thing thats bothing me atm is my plants are growing faster than i can re-pot them & some lower yellowing is happening. We'll get there in the end. Next time i mix a soil its going to have all the correct ammendments, including dolomite lime, i like the fact the Medium PH wont rise over 7 with the Dol Lime! Good Luck All!

MMmm Earth Juice, thats interesting, i wonder where that would leave my 8.4 tap, anyone?

This is the shit I want to hear, experiments, questions, results.

 

[guineapig]

I have posted some pH related threads here before.....

Yes earth juice (or the sugar peak products made by the same company) would indeed lower your pH from 8.4 to somewhere between 5 - 6 depending on how much you added....careful not to add too much....

I've done lots of pH experiments over the years.....the best thing to do is to keep it simple because the more pH products you add, the more of a chance you have to lock-out certain nutrients and mess up your whole root-zone equilibrium.....i think Tom Hill is right about that too....no sticky will solve all pH problems, but i think i have some good information from previous posts....

Here's a water quality thread i put together years ago....

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=32105&highlight=guide

kind regards from guineapig

 

[VerdantGreen]

im in the same boat with high pH tapwater, and i just add water to my soil - so i use citric acid to pH water to around 6. plants love it so i am happy.

VG

 

[High Country]

I have posted some pH related threads here before.....

Yes earth juice (or the sugar peak products made by the same company) would indeed lower your pH from 8.4 to somewhere between 5 - 6 depending on how much you added....careful not to add too much....

I've done lots of pH experiments over the years.....the best thing to do is to keep it simple because the more pH products you add, the more of a chance you have to lock-out certain nutrients and mess up your whole root-zone equilibrium.....i think Tom Hill is right about that too....no sticky will solve all pH problems, but i think i have some good information from previous posts....

Here's a water quality thread i put together years ago....

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=32105&highlight=guide

kind regards from guineapig

This thread is finally making sense again.

 

[DARC MIND]

We are growing on chemical terms whether we are paying attention or not. Many relationships in living bioactive soils are heavily controlled by chemical reactions. pH, oxidization rates etc. Soil microbes -fungi, yeasts, bacteria etc- all happen to thrive in different pH ranges, by not paying attention many will screw their soil up. To continue tossing humates on the problem is like throwing band aids at what will eventually end up a festering gang green long term imo. Don't be afraid to actually find out what's going on down there, there's nothing wrong with increasing your knowledge. -T

i understand the importance to want to know ur ph and all. & i agree with most on why its important (water, the way some feed,ect). no argument ther
but calling the method of feeding (the soil) in balancing act, with compost and or casting a "band aid" is a first for me. not here to argue but in organic soil i believe biology comes before chemistry, u right about chemical reactions effecting the quality of soil but these chemical reactions are being process by them microbes.
please educate me on how organic farms are growing crops after crops with just "band aids" OM and compost with out the use of lime. long term gang green produce/meds may happend to be my goal