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acespicoli

Well-known member

A guide to grow lights PAR, PPFD, Wattage and DLI​

03/12/2021
https://dutch-passion.blog/author/dutchjoe/
Dutch Joe
The Ultimate feminised cannabis seeds grow report Antonio Fernando SCROG LED SANlight

From home growers to licensed commercial growers, knowing which type/power grow light to get for your grow room is one of the key decisions. But what is meant by the sometimes confusing technical terms such as PAR, PPFD, DLI and Wattage? What do they tell you about the grow light, it’s performance and how much value it offers?
Before you splash the cash on any potential grow light upgrade it’s important to understand precisely what is meant by the various technical terms which comes with modern lights. Once you understand the basics you will be able to explore new grow light options with added confidence.

Cannabis PAR, PPFD, DLI and wattage explained​

Upgrading to LED grow lights is often the most expensive grow room upgrade a grower will make. LED has been getting gradually more and more affordable over recent years. But equipping your 1.2m x 1.2m grow room with a decent quality LED light, (typically 400-650W actual power draw) at 2021 prices, might not give you much change from €/£/$ 750-1000. That makes it extra important that you fully understand the technical specifications which you are paying for, and what they mean. PAR, PPFD, DLI and Wattage are some of the more important terms you should understand.
SolarSystem-550-pic-1.jpg

What is Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR)?​

PAR light describes the photosynthetically active radiation between 400nm (blue light wavelengths) to 700nm (red light). It is called ‘photosynthetically active’ since the light is the energy source required to drive photosynthesis (and therefore growth) within the plant.
It’s worth adding that PAR from 400nm-700nm doesn’t actually encompass all the usable wavelengths. UV (Ultra violet) light and IR (Infra red) wavelengths fall just outside this range but are still useful to cannabis.

Ultraviolet vs infrared light and UV-A/UV-B effects on cannabis​

Auto Orange Bud cannabis seeds LED grow light test module chinese purple spectrum

UV light is comprised of three separate bands, UV-A (315-400 nm), UV-B (280-315nm) and UV-C (100-280nm). Of these, UV-A and UV-B are most useful to the cannabis plant, especially later in bloom. UV light is part of the natural solar spectrum which plants have adapted to over millions of years. To human skin, UV-A has an ageing effect whereas the more energy intensive UV-B can produce sunburn. UV-C is the most powerful and biologically damaging of all UV light, it can kill on contact and is used for sterilising objects. The Ozone in the earth’s upper atmosphere removes UV-C before it reaches ground level, meaning that sun-light at sea level contains just UV-A & UV-B.
Many professional growers now supplement their grow room with UV-A and UV-B light. This is proven to boost terpene levels and cannabinoid content. UV light supplementation typically comes from fluorescent tubes rather than LED. That’s because it is simply cheaper to do it that way, though in future many hope that affordable (and sufficiently powerful) UV-A and UV-B LED’s become available. Adding extra UV-A and UV-B light to the grow room is a proven way to push the quality levels up though it won’t significantly increase yield.
Infra-Red (IR) wavelengths over 700nm stimulate phytochrome (a natural pigment) within the plant. These are essential photoreceptors involved in the regulation of aspects of growth and bloom. A good LED grow light should contain enough infrared light to produce a plant with full stem growth, proper node spacing and higher yields.

What is Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density (PPFD)?​

Night-Queen-LED-Bio-Indoor-24.jpg
Desfran sativa dominant weed led hps grow indoor halfpipe scrog high yield

Two other important terms you will come across when looking at LED grow lights are Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density (PPFD) and Micromoles (μmols). This is a way of measuring light intensity.
PPFD measures the amount/quantity of PAR light photons that are delivered to your plant canopy in one second. It’s measured in micromoles (μmols) per square metre per second (μmol/m2/s). In simple terms you can think of PPFD as a measure of the strength of the light above your plants.
Since many people don’t really understand the units (μmol/m2/s ) that PPFD is measured in, many people simply say ‘μmol’ rather than μmol/m2/s. Others, for the sake of simplicity, just refer to a PPFD number without any units at all.
The light loses strength (PPFD numbers will therefore decrease) the further away it is from your plants. Responsible LED grow light manufacturers will have recommended hanging heights for their lights at various stages of plant development.

What is Daily Light Integral (DLI) and how much is required for cannabis?​

PPFD is the amount of light striking a 1m2 canopy in 1 second. If you multiply that number by 86,400 (there are 86,400 seconds in a day) you have the Daily Light Integral (DLI). Usually this is measured in Moles. A Mole is a million micro-Moles.
If you have an LED grow light with average PPFD levels of 750μmol/m2/s across your canopy the DLI (in 24 hours) would be 64.8 Moles of light:
750μmol/m2/s x 86,400s = 64,800,000μmol/m2 = 64.8mol/m2
If you had that light on for 50% of the time during bloom i.e. 12 hours per day, the cannabis plant would therefore receive 32.4 moles of light per day (64.8 divided by 2 = 32.4)

Wattage considerations for MH vs HPS vs LED grow lights​

LED vs HPS grow light indoor cannabis

LED Wattage can be a particularly misleading way of assessing the power of a potential LED light. Watch out for it in the marketing of some of the less desirable LED grow light imports. Wattage is merely a measure of the amount of power used, not a measure of the amount of useful light produced.
You could have two lights with a 400W power draw, but one could be using LED’s that are twice as bright (twice as efficient) as the other. The best LED light manufacturers will use modern, efficient LED’s that convert 50% of the electricity into light. Low cost LED’s will have half that efficiency i.e. they will only convert 25% of the electricity into light. So ‘Wattage’ only tells you how much power is being drawn, not how efficiently it is being used or how much light is being generated from that electricity.
If you want to know more about the quality of the LED ‘chips’ in a given fixture, check the efficiency rating given by the manufacturer. The better LED grow light manufacturers will be able to explain the type of drivers and LED chips used. Premium quality LED grow light manufacturers should also be able to provide you with a chart, showing expected PPFD levels at various light hanging heights for each of their lights in various size tents.
If you want a clear and simple explanation about wattages for LED & HPS as well as a guide to corresponding plant numbers, the following article provides some expert insights.
Related:
How many cannabis plants can I grow per square metre and what size light is needed?

How much light (PPFD) do photoperiod cannabis plants need?​

The Ultimate femseeds scrogging start of flowering led grow lights top and bottom buds flowers

The table below gives a guide to the PPFD requirements at different stages of the cannabis growth cycle. Note that cannabis will grow well across a range of light levels – it’s not critical to measure and maintain specific values. Some strains (and the phenotypes within that strain) may have their individual leanings when to comes to preferred light intensities.
PPFD During Seedling PhasePPFD During Vegetative PhasePPFD During Flowering Phase
Light cycle18h/daily18h/daily12hr/daily
Moderate Cannabis Yield (minimum light needed for a reasonable result):100-150 μmol/m2/s300-400 μmol/m2/s600-700 μmol/m2/s
Max Cannabis Yield (maximum ‘typical’ light needed):200-300 μmol/m2/s500 (up to 600) μmol/m2/s800-1000 μmol/m2/s

Cannabis seedling stage PPFD​

Cannabis seedling stage day 1

Cannabis seedlings don’t need too much light, PPFD levels of around 200-300μmol/m2/s are sufficient in combination with (around) 18 hours of daily light. The small size and delicate seedling tissues are easily overloaded and damaged by excessive light levels. Low light levels allow the seedling to gradually increase in size, reaching a point where they can tolerate more light intensity.
Related:
Cannabis seedling stage, how-to guide

Cannabis vegetative stage PPFD​

Cannabis plants vegetative stage

Cannabis is often given light with PPFD levels of around 300-500μmol/m2/s during vegetative growth. Some growers will offer even stronger PPFD levels of around 600 though others might argue such PPFD levels are not really required in veg. During vegetative growth the plant will produce leaves, branches and roots but no buds.
Related:
Cannabis vegetative stage how to guide

Cannabis flowering stage PPFD​

Cannabis flowering stage

In late bloom many growers aim for maximum PPFD levels of up to/around 1000μmol/m2/s when growing photoperiod feminised cannabis seeds. Some people may even push for PPFD levels of 1500 when supplementing with CO2 in late bloom. However, the experienced grower will note that some strains (and indeed certain phenotypes within the strain) are able to be pushed to higher PPFD levels than others before showing signs of stress. So there is no clear ‘one size fits all’ policy when it comes to PPFD and cannabis cultivation.
Many autoflower growers using long photoperiods (e.g. 20 hours per day) will err on the side of lower PPFD levels (perhaps nearer 700-800) simply to avoid pushing their plants too hard and risking light-burn problems as a result.
It’s worth mentioning that adding increasing amounts of light to the grow room don’t necessarily result in ever-increasing yields. Eventually the plant reaches saturation point and the law of diminishing yields applies. In other words, adding more light doesn’t improve yields and may actually become a stressful growth limiter.
This is mentioned so the grower is aware that excessive light levels can be an expensive way of causing entirely avoidable grow-room problems. Less experienced growers in particular are advised to be cautious when it comes to attempting to maximise PPFD levels. It may be safer to gain general grow experience at moderate light intensity levels before trying to ‘push the envelope’.
Related:
Cannabis flowering stage, how-to guide
 

acespicoli

Well-known member
ADDED FLUENCE TO POLL DUE TO EXCELLENT EXAMPLES AND FORUM REVIEWS

Fluence Headquarters​

4129 Commercial Center Drive
Suite 450
Austin, TX 78744

Fluence Europe​

Marten Meesweg 8-10
3068 AV Rotterdam
The Netherlands

These may not be best in USA residential @ 240V AC
Where you would likely prefer 120V AC
 
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acespicoli

Well-known member
MEANT TO ADD THIS TO THE DISCUSSION EARLIER

The conversion between energy-based PAR and photon-based PAR depends on the spectrum of the light source (see Photosynthetic efficiency). The following table shows the conversion factors from watts for black-body spectra that are truncated to the range 400–700 nm. It also shows the luminous efficacy for these light sources and the fraction of a real black-body radiator that is emitted as PAR.

T
[K]
ηv
[lm/W*]
ηphoton
[μmol/J*] or [μmol⋅s−1⋅W*−1]
ηphoton
[mol⋅day−1⋅W*−1]
ηPAR
[W*/W]
3000 (warm white)2694.980.430.0809
40002774.780.4130.208
5800 (daylight)2654.560.3940.368
Note: W* and J* indicate PAR watts and PAR joules (400–700 nm).
For example, a light source of 1000 lm at a color temperature of 5800 K would emit approximately 1000/265 = 3.8 W of PAR, which is equivalent to 3.8 × 4.56 = 17.3 μmol/s. For a black-body light source at 5800 K, such as the sun is approximately, a fraction 0.368 of its total emitted radiation is emitted as PAR. For artificial light sources, that usually do not have a black-body spectrum, these conversion factors are only approximate.

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SPIDER FARMER SEEMS QUITE POPULAR, THEY USE EXCELLENT DIODES IN THE 2024 RELEASE

screenshot-www.spider-farmer.com-2024.08.22-22_20_26.png

IF YOU LOOKED INTO THE DIODE SPREAD SHEETS OF FULL SPEC LED IN A EARLIER POST
HARD TO DISREGUARD THE EVO's :thinking: VERY $$$ BUT A COMMERCIAL QUALITY PRODUCT
DO WE NEED THAT KINDA POWER? OK MAYBE NOT A ENTRY LEVEL LIGHT, STILL NICE!

WILL GIVE MOST POLL PICKS A DEDICATED TAB ON PAGE ONE SPREADSHEET
UPDATED SORTED THE LIST WITH HOTLINKS SORTED A-Z BEST>>>:huggg:
 
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acespicoli

Well-known member
KQO 120W QB288 Aluminum Heat Sink Radiator for LM281B+ LM301B LM301H LED Grow Light PCB Boards, Opens in a new tab
  • 【Dimension】 12.87x7.75" (326x195mm), 10mm height.


KQO 120W LED grow light PCB Boards with Samsung LM281B+ 3000K 5000K UV and IR Full Spectrum Panel Lighting PCB Kit, Opens in a new tab

DC 0/1-10V LED Dimmer Knob Controller Rotary Mini Switch PWM Dimming for Dimmable Interior Lighting Spotlight Grow Lamp LED Driver 1pc, Opens in a new tab
  • DC 0/1-10V LED Dimmer Knob Controller Rotary Mini Switch PWM Dimming for Dimmable Interior Lighting Spotlight Grow Lamp LED Driver 1pcDC 0/1-10V LED Dimmer Knob Controller Rotary Mini Switch PWM Dimming for Dimmable Interior Lighting Spotlight Grow Lamp LED Driver 1pc
  • $9.99

    KQO LED Grow light PCB lm281b+ LEDs with Red 660nm Ir 730nm Uv 395nm PCB board​

    led grow light pcb

    The recommend driver and specs:
    1pc - (120W / 2.5A) Meanwell HLG-120H-48A, HLG-120H-48B,HLG-120H-48AB
    2pcs - (240W / 5A) Meanwell HLG-240H-48A, HLG-240H-48B,HLG-240H-48AB (Lower cost) ELG-240-48A,ELG-240-48B,ELG-240-48AB (Lower cost) XLG-240-H-A,XLG-240-H-AB
    3pcs - (320W / 6.7A) Meanwell HLG-320H-48A,HLG-320H-48B,HLG-320H-48AB
    Other Constant Current driver with same spec is also ok. Constant Current Driver - Fixed Current Output but with adaptive wave voltage output, such as HLG-240H-48 power driver, the rated output is 5A / (24-48V). Please do not use Constant Voltage Power driver.

    Grow light PCB ( Please note :​

  • Power Driver, Heat -sink and other accessories are not included, only LED pcb​

    Recommend Solution and Power Supply

    Which Driver to Use ( Please note : Power Driver, Heat -sink and other accessories are not included, only LED pcb ! )​

    Please note : power driver, heat-sink and other accessories are not included, only LED pcb board
    So you should use a power driver which the output Voltage cover 48V ( 40~48V is ok) and output Current cover rated 2.5A (900~2700mA are all ok,
    but working at 900mA will have the lowest brightness and power, 2700mA will have the max power).
    If you cononect 2pcs grow light pcb boards in parallel connection, voltage no change, but the power driver should have double output Current Rated 5A (900~2700mA * 2) to make it work.
    If we connect 3pcs / 4pcs / 5pcs in parallel connection will be the same rule as above.

    KQO LED Grow light PCB lm281b+ LEDs with Red 660nm IR 730nm UV 395nm pcb board​

    led grow light pcb

    Spectrum chart​

    Dimension: 286mmx174mm
    1.6mm High Thickness Aluminum PCB
    1Oz (35um) Copper Layer
    High Quality White OSP paint
    Original LM281B+ LEDs
    SMD 2835 LEDs(3000K and 5000K), mixed 660nm Red LEDs (36pcs) CRI : >80
    Circuit Design: 16S18P ( 16 Series, 18 Parallels)
    Input Voltage: DC 40-48V
    Input Current: 900~2700mA
    Rated Power: 120W
    Screw Type for Mounting: M4*10 (Screw is not included)
    PPF: 2.76umol/S

    KQO LED Grow light PCB lm281b+ LEDs with Red 660nm IR 730nm UV 395nm led pcb board​

    led grow light pcb

    Screw Hole Position​

    KQO LED Grow light PCB lm281b+ LEDs with Red 660nm IR 730nm UV 395nm​

    https://www.pcbonline.com/blog/led-grow-light-pcb.html

One for the DIY folks ;)
 

acespicoli

Well-known member
Home> Blog> SMD LED vs COB LED vs DOB LED - 3 Options for LED PCBs

SMD LED vs COB LED vs DOB LED - 3 Options for LED PCBs​



SMD LED PCB assembly

What does SMD LED mean? What's COB LED? What's the full form of DOB in LED? This blog introduces SMD LED, COB LED, and DOB LED. You can also learn about SMD LED PCBs.
This blog gives an introduction to SMD LED, COB LED, and DOB LED, and the differences between them.

Part 1: What Does SMD LED Mean​

  • Features of SMD LED: low requirements for thermal management; unevenly-shed light, having halo; SMT assembly
SMD LED means surface-mount device light-emitting diode. They are common and cost-effective SMDs.
SMD LEDs are LEDs that are surface-mounted on PCBs. They have very short leads and are packaged in trays or tape/reels.
In SMT assembly, SMD LEDs are picked and placed automatically on an LED PCB, and then the LED PCBA is reflow soldered and accepts the automatic optical inspection. When installed with an enclosure, the PCBA becomes an SMD LED lamp.
SMD LEDs

In the LED market, SMD LED lights are the most common type because they are the cheapest.
SMD LED PCBs are the most affordable LED PCBs because of efficient SMT assembly, low-cost SMD LEDs, and cost-effective SMD LED PCBs.
Typical, the substrate material of SMD LED PCB is aluminum. Aluminum PCBs have 1 to 4 layers, and the PCB design is easy. Aluminum PCBs have a higher thermal conductivity (1W/mK to 9W/mK) than FR4 PCBs. From the one-stop PCB manufacturer PCBONLINE, the price of aluminum SMD LED PCBs is $39 per square meter.
Besides aluminum, from PCB manufacturer PCBONLINE, you have other options for the substrate material of SMD LED PCBs, such as FR4 and copper.
SMD LED PCB light

On the PCB board of an SMD LED light, the SMD LED chips scatter on the PCB board, so SMD LEDs can conduct heat quickly. SMD LED lights have a lower thermal dissipation requirement than the integrated way, which is COB LED introduced in the next part.
Overall, SMD LEDs are cost-effective and easy to assemble on PCBs, and their thermal dissipation is good. However, the SMD LED light sources are scattered, which causes halos and uneven light shedding of SMD LED lights.

Part 2: What's COB LED​

  • Features of COB LED: high thermal generation, small areas for thermal dissipation; evenly-shed light, no halo; LEDs are bonded on PCB
COB, or chip-on-board, is an LED chip mounting on PCB method. Multiple LED chips are integrated and directly bonded to the PCB and then sealed with glue.
In PCBONLINE's LED PCB assembly factory, COB LED bonding can be in two different methods - wire bonding and flip-chip bonding.
COB LED bonding

  • LED PCB wire bonding: the LED chip is connected to the PCB using a gold or aluminum wire, and then the chips are sealed by glue.
  • LED PCB flip-chip bonding: the P-N junction of the LED chips is directly bonded with the PCB without any gold or aluminum wires. Compared with wire bonding, the chips are flipped.
Wire-bonding COB LED PCBs are usually used for small-power LED lights, while flip-chip bonding COB LED PCBs are designed for high-power devices. You can see the ceramic COB LED PCBs we make for spotlights, which can work continuously for more than 10 hours per day.
On a COB LED PCB board, you will notice that COB LEDs are placed together in a rounded or regular polygon shape.
When you use COB LED products, you will find that the light is shed evenly without a halo. This is because the LED light source is integrated.
ceramic LED PCB

The integrated arrangement of COB LEDs generates a lot of heat when working. So the thermal dissipation requirement of COB LEDs is high. When you design a COB LED PCB, thermal management is the top consideration.
By choosing a substrate material with high thermal conductivity, designing the OCB LED PCB to be single-layer or double-layer with two component mounting sides, or adding copper busbars to the PCB, you can do well in the thermal management of COB LED PCBs.
Is COB LED bonding restricted by the PCB substrate materials? No, as long as your PCB design can handle thermal management, from PCBONLINE, you can have COB LED chips bonded on ceramic PCBs, FR4 PCBs, aluminum PCBs, flexible PCBs, and even clear flex PCBs. If you have any doubts about thermal management, PCBONLINE can offer PCB design assistance for free.

Part 3: What is the Full Form of DOB in LED​

  • Features of DOB LED: power source AC replaces AC/DC; high LED power efficiency; long lifespan
The full form of DOB is driver-on-board. It means other electronic components and LEDs are assembled and work together on the PCB. It should be noted that DOB LED is not an LED chip assembly technology but an LED PCB design option.
The LED and IC chips are directly powered by utility power (110V or 220V). DOB LED circuit design leaves out electrolytic capacitors, inductors, and transformers, and this design reduces the LED product size.
In recent years, electronic component prices have been rising. The DOB LED PCB solution reduces the PCB parts and you can spend less on BOM materials for LED products.
If you made DOB LED designs, or if you want PCB design or engineering assistance, please contact PCBONLINE to offer free DOB LED PCB design assistance and one-stop PCB manufacturing.

Part 4: COB LED vs SMD LED vs DOB LED​

What are the differences between COB, SMD, and DOB LEDs?
First, COB LED and SMD LED are two LED chip assembly technologies, while COB LED is an LED PCB design solution.
Second, COB LEDs are integrated and bonded on the PCB board; SMD LEDs are scattered and surface-mounted on the PCB board; COB LEDs are not integrated, and the power source is AC utility power.
Third, COB LEDs have higher power than COB LEDs and SMD LEDs.
Fourth, COB LEDs have no halo, and their light shattering is even; SMD LEDs have haloes and uneven lighting; DOB LED's lighting is not as even as COB LEDs, but better than SMD LEDs.
Fifth, usually, SMD LEDs are the cheapest among the three LED products, and DOB LEDs are more expensive than COB LED PCBs.

Quality COB, SMD, DOB LED PCB Manufacturing and Assembly​

If you plan to have LED PCBs manufactured and assembled, you can contact the LED PCB source manufacturer PCBONLINE.
If you do not have LED PCB designs, PCBONLINE can offer off-the-shelf solutions for free and complete one-stop manufacturing, and send ready-to-use LED end-products to you.
LED PCB manufacturing

PCBONLINE, founded in 1999, has two large advanced PCB manufacturing bases in Jiangsu and Jiangxi, as well as one PCB assembly factory in Shenzhen. For the past 23 years, PCBONLINE has manufactured many LED PCB orders, including COB LEDs, SMD LEDs, and DOB LEDs, for automotive, industrial, medical, agricultural, and consumer LED lighting applications.
Here are the reasons for you to cooperate with PCBONLINE in LED PCB manufacturing:
  • One-stop EMS electronic manufacturing for SMD LED PCBs, COB LED PCBs, and DOB LED PCBs.
  • PCBONLINE can provide LED PCBs with any substrates, such as aluminum, FR4, ceramic, copper, polyimide, and glass.
  • We have rich experiences in COB, DOB, and SMD LED PCB design, manufacturing, and assembly.
  • ISO 9001, IATF 16949, UL, REACH, RoHS-certified LED PCB manufacturing and assembly quality management.
  • Quality LED chips and can join component co-procurement with other large EMS from component factories.
  • Free one-on-one LED PCB design assistance and complete PCBA sample for batch production.
If you have any LED PCB needs, please send your Gerber or any inquiries to PCBONLINE by email at [email protected].

Conclusion​

COB LED and SMD LED are two different technologies for assembling LED chips on PCB boards, while the relatively new COB LED is a PCB design solution that uses utility power to drive rather than AC/DC transformers. COB, SMD, and DOB LED product development are not restricted by PCB substrates. If you want COB, SMD, or DOB LED PCB design, manufacturing, and assembly, please do not miss the 23-year-old source factory PCBONLINE.
 

Rocket Soul

Well-known member
I have never managed to fathom out this graph. I just gave in to googling it, and google didn't know either. Anyone?
1724371848745-png.19052775
Google lense had a little blurb under this pic: 5 week, before initiation of flower they measured performance of fan leaf photosynthesis: low light vegged under 90is ppfd, high under 1200ish: hte ones in low light peaked their photosynthesis at 600, no point in giving more. High light flowers peaked around 1300 and then they dont improve with more light.
 

Ca++

Well-known member
I was unfair to the KingBrite QB. During a refit, I noticed I have been watering it.
wateredqb.jpg

You can probably tell me which one is broken.
This QB was under the plants, pointing upwards. Bridging the gap between two pots, by sitting on their edges. Old already replaced boards, put on new (£10) heatsinks, just for this duty. It's no loss, but does show lights down there need covers. A conformal coating at the very least.

The builders might want to put their mind towards how just one can fail. It must see full supply voltage, making that 3030 package, probably 16S (a 4x4 grid of LEDs in a single package). A COB.

I suggest any of the US QB owners, where the later models just use a flat plate as a heatsink, get some of these proper one's. One's with fins, that increase the surface area a few fold. This will increase efficiency and extend the lights life. Without proper heatsinks, the lights will test well for the time it takes them to warm up. So good figures can be established. However, this won't hold true once the LEDs are cooking.
I once put a PC fan on a QB, to establish it's usefulness. The fans power consumption was leading to more light (through lowering temps) than sending that power to the LEDs would. My PC fan produced more umol/w than the 301H fitting it was cooling.
 
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Ca++

Well-known member
Google lense had a little blurb under this pic: 5 week, before initiation of flower they measured performance of fan leaf photosynthesis: low light vegged under 90is ppfd, high under 1200ish: hte ones in low light peaked their photosynthesis at 600, no point in giving more. High light flowers peaked around 1300 and then they dont improve with more light.
Thanks man. The co2 m2 was probably a clue, but that snippet of info clears up a lot of the mystery.

So 400umol will veg fine, and 600umol will to, even on 18h days. While using 900 means your electric is stolen.
That seems about right :)

That is just the black line though. Atmospheric CO2 levels. The blue line is raised CO2, but we are still left guessing, how raised.

I still feel like there is a lot to guess here. Enough for serious uncertainty. Though it's certainly come more into focus (y)
 

acespicoli

Well-known member
I have never managed to fathom out this graph. I just gave in to googling it, and google didn't know either. Anyone?
1724371848745-png.19052775
Figure 3. Typical light response curves [net CO2 exchange rate (NCER) response to light intensity] of the youngest fully-expanded fan leaves of Cannabis sativa ‘Stillwater’ grown under either low or high localized photosynthetic photon flux densities (LPPFD). The low and high LPPFD were 91 and 1,238 μmol·m−2·s−1, respectively. Measurements were made during week 5 after the initiation of the 12-h photoperiod.
Volume 12 - 2021 | https://doi.org/10.3389/fpls.2021.646020
This article is part of the Research TopicBehind the Smoke and Mirrors:
Reflections on Improving Cannabis Production and Investigating Medical PotentialView all 16 articles

Cannabis Yield, Potency, and Leaf Photosynthesis Respond Differently to Increasing Light Levels in an Indoor Environment​

https://www.researchgate.net/public...es_to_food_current_and_potential_LED_efficacy
^^^ SOME BRASS TACKS ON LED ^^^


I sure did miss posting the paper link to that :huggg:
 

Ca++

Well-known member
Last edited:

Maco

Member
Hi, anyone have used this ones with the emerald green spectrum??

Looking for some input want to get leds on christmas

 

Rocket Soul

Well-known member
Thanks man. The co2 m2 was probably a clue, but that snippet of info clears up a lot of the mystery.

So 400umol will veg fine, and 600umol will to, even on 18h days. While using 900 means your electric is stolen.
That seems about right :)

That is just the black line though. Atmospheric CO2 levels. The blue line is raised CO2, but we are still left guessing, how raised.

I still feel like there is a lot to guess here. Enough for serious uncertainty. Though it's certainly come more into focus (y)
Thats not really what it says - they dont use CO2 as a condition, its the indicator of how much photosynthesis measured. This is not a study about co2 affects growth of anything.

Basicly it says that low light conditioned plants will not be able to use as much light as high light conditioned plants. The lower black line is indicating the low light conditioned plants and blue high light intensity conditioned plants. Were the lines flatten out is where they dont give more photosynthesis from more light, but co2 is only measure of results blue amd black line appears to have the same CO2 concentration
 

Ca++

Well-known member
I'm not buying it lol
What conditioning? Where is this 90 even spoke of in the article.
Plants were grown at 425ppfd for a couple of weeks, then flowered at different ppfd, between 120 and 1200. With a nice graph showing the CO2 intake at different light levels.

That all seems fine.

Two graphs?
There must be two conditions.
I'm not saying it has to be co2 that's different, but somethings not making sense. The black line isn't even crossing the zero in the right place.

It shouldn't be this hard.
Can anyone define the difference between the two lines?
 

Ca++

Well-known member
iu

Interesting graph, of why proper thermal management is needed, for decent lifetime.
At 12/12 we run just under 4500 hours a year. We could easily be doing a bit of veg time, so 5000h a year.

In the UK, that might be a 480w light, at 30p a unit, £750
A die temp of 85 is common enough. It's a fairly typical upper limit, and over diving LEDs is 100% likely. So you can expect some high temps at the very LED. If 3 years looses 12% output, that is about £100 a year you increase your power bill to get the light back. Or just loose it. Either way, a £100 share just went. By 7 years, you could of lost over 25%, or near £300 a year. So the second half of the lights life expectancy, it looses you £500 in total. While the first half of it's life, it lost £150 vs new.

£350 buys me new QB boards, to give a £200 saving.
If could even make sense, to take the £350, plus your lights used value, and buy a new light every 4 years or so.
Free'd up QB boards can run on about half power, even without heatsink. I suggest a lower number, like 25%, might make them useful for sidelights. Where lower drive, extends their life, until the next main board change. It's a long term plan, but do look at the lights you buy, in terms of spare parts availability. In time, the world will catch up with the fact these lights still need new bulbs.
 

Rocket Soul

Well-known member
I'm not buying it lol
What conditioning? Where is this 90 even spoke of in the article.
Plants were grown at 425ppfd for a couple of weeks, then flowered at different ppfd, between 120 and 1200. With a nice graph showing the CO2 intake at different light levels.

That all seems fine.

Two graphs?
There must be two conditions.
I'm not saying it has to be co2 that's different, but somethings not making sense. The black line isn't even crossing the zero in the right place.

It shouldn't be this hard.
Can anyone define the difference between the two lines?
Just went by google lens blurb (couldnt find the non paywall paper):
Screenshot_2024-08-25-09-07-58-210_com.android.chrome.jpg

The black line means theyve been grown (i assume for veg or something) under 91 ppfd and then taken thru the whole register of ppfd; were +600ppfd didnt give any new increases in CO2 intake. I had it wrong; its after 5 weeks of veg its in 5 week of flower. I could only fond paid versions of this. Blue line: grown under 1200ish to start with.

I think your mind is trying to reach here: its a bit of a stupid study: results are give little light and the plant will only be able to handle little light. More light and later it will be handle more light. From those graphs its so easy to think that theres some golden nuggs of info while its just saying that light sensitive plants are light sensitive. Cheers
 
Last edited:

Rocket Soul

Well-known member
Hi, anyone have used this ones with the emerald green spectrum??

Looking for some input want to get leds on christmas

Theres a paper, or internet blurb kinda thing, on green being really good at high intensity light photosynthesis. Thats all ive seen regarding this add green paradigm.
Personally i think its a misstake if you want good quality buds; my guess is that those lights will give you lots of high density/hard buds that dont smell very much.
 

acespicoli

Well-known member
For photosynthesis you want full spectrum, or think it is a 3:1 red to blue "blurple" led fixture.
The important think is to provide light in a wavelength that the plant need to produce energy.

"Absorption spectra of the chlorophyll a and b pigments in the visible light range, measured in a solvent. Both types barely absorb green light. Chlorophyll a absorbs violet and orange light the most. Chlorophyll b absorbs mostly blue and yellow light."

The greens will make a light more appealing to the eye and make viewing your plants easier as in spotting off leaf colors nute problems etc.


The low and high thresholds on light intensity make me think if the max ppfd needed is 1200ppfd and I buy a 1500-2000ppfd fixture and it has a dimming feature, running it at 75% would be awesome also locating the led power driver outside the grow area would keep things running cooler.


Those QB boards are nice not everyone is up to soldering and electrical stuff, They are very modular in nature now all leds on a board which only needs a simple connection. No more soldering leds needed like the old days. It may be in reach of more people now and the price point is low enough to make it a attractivr option.


The question for me now is what is the highest ppfd that is gonna yield me more weight ?
What is the gram price of the finished product?
Whats the break even point where my light investment and led switch save me money on electric and paid the led fixture off ?

Isnt just cheaper to go to the dispensary :thinking:

The nice option of grow your own is your in control of strain selection, quality, and its for sure gonna save you cash if you do it right.

But what strain is gonna produce the best results? Thats a big factor in making the most of each run. While the whole grow takes many aspects, the square foot and gram per watt folks have some good data on this part.

Think it was 0.98gm/watt was the most common cited realistic yield. Figure weight trimmed minimal stalk dried to 58-62 relative humidity?

Length of veg time clone vs plant..... depends

The real answer to, is your system up to par is gm/watt. 🤷‍♂️
 
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acespicoli

Well-known member
For photosynthesis you want full spectrum, or think it is a 3:1 red to blue "blurple" led fixture.
The important think is to provide light in a wavelength that the plant need to produce energy.

"Absorption spectra of the chlorophyll a and b pigments in the visible light range, measured in a solvent. Both types barely absorb green light. Chlorophyll a absorbs violet and orange light the most. Chlorophyll b absorbs mostly blue and yellow light."

The greens will make a light more appealing to the eye and make viewing your plants easier as in spotting off leaf colors nute problems etc.


The low and high thresholds on light intensity make me think if the max ppfd needed is 1200ppfd and I buy a 1500-2000ppfd fixture and it has a dimming feature, running it at 75% would be awesome also locating the led power driver outside the grow area would keep things running cooler.


Those QB boards are nice not everyone is up to soldering and electrical stuff, They are very modular in nature now all leds on a board which only needs a simple connection. No more soldering leds needed lime the old days. It may be in reach of more people now and the price point is low enough to make it a attractivr option.


The question for me now is what is the highest ppfd that is gonna yield me more weight ?
What is the gram price of the finished product?
Whats the break even point where my light investment and led switch save me money on electric and paid the led fixture off ?

Isnt just cheaper to go to the dispensary :thinking:

The nice option of grow your own is your in control of strain selection, quality, and its for sure gonna save you cadh if you do it right.

But what strain is gonna produce the best results? Thats a big factor in making the most of each run. While the whole grow takes many aspects, the square foot and gram per watt folks have some good data on this part.

Think it was 0.98gm/watt was the most common cited realistic yield. Figure weight trimmed minimal stalk dried to 58-62 relative humidity?

Length of veg time clone vs plant..... depends

With standard testing thc we should strive for thc levels maxing around 20%-25% some of those 30% thc strains have been found to have falselt reported numbers, maybe others have read the latest standarization testing methods from sigma aldrich ?
The real answer to is your system up to par is gm/watt. 🤷‍♂️
 

Rocket Soul

Well-known member
For photosynthesis you want full spectrum, or think it is a 3:1 red to blue "blurple" led fixture.
The important think is to provide light in a wavelength that the plant need to produce energy.

"Absorption spectra of the chlorophyll a and b pigments in the visible light range, measured in a solvent. Both types barely absorb green light. Chlorophyll a absorbs violet and orange light the most. Chlorophyll b absorbs mostly blue and yellow light."

The greens will make a light more appealing to the eye and make viewing your plants easier as in spotting off leaf colors nute problems etc.


The low and high thresholds on light intensity make me think if the max ppfd needed is 1200ppfd and I buy a 1500-2000ppfd fixture and it has a dimming feature, running it at 75% would be awesome also locating the led power driver outside the grow area would keep things running cooler.


Those QB boards are nice not everyone is up to soldering and electrical stuff, They are very modular in nature now all leds on a board which only needs a simple connection. No more soldering leds needed lime the old days. It may be in reach of more people now and the price point is low enough to make it a attractivr option.


The question for me now is what is the highest ppfd that is gonna yield me more weight ?
What is the gram price of the finished product?
Whats the break even point where my light investment and led switch save me money on electric and paid the led fixture off ?

Isnt just cheaper to go to the dispensary :thinking:

The nice option of grow your own is your in control of strain selection, quality, and its for sure gonna save you cadh if you do it right.

But what strain is gonna produce the best results? Thats a big factor in making the most of each run. While the whole grow takes many aspects, the square foot and gram per watt folks have some good data on this part.

Think it was 0.98gm/watt was the most common cited realistic yield. Figure weight trimmed minimal stalk dried to 58-62 relative humidity?

Length of veg time clone vs plant..... depends

With standard testing thc we should strive for thc levels maxing around 20%-25% some of those 30% thc strains have been found to have falselt reported numbers, maybe others have read the latest standarization testing methods from sigma aldrich ?
The real answer to is your system up to par is gm/watt. 🤷‍♂️

G/w is to me is an old way to measure a grow, much less important today: whats best: a 240w watt fixture that can grow you 480g in a meter or a 400w that does 650g per meter? Im all for the higher yield per m2. And maybe throwing in kwh or how many weeks of flower is needed.

G/w is tied to efficiency, which has been the main criteria for a growlight for some years now. But if you really think about it: no matter what your desired quality of bud is there is going to be an ideal light condition to reach it : both spectrum and intensity. And efficiency basicly measure how many watts you need to reach there. Home growers : extremely few are watt limited; maybe heat limited which means not being able to use too may watts but literally noone is going to find its impossible to grow with a light that uses 20% more watts. So why do we focus so much on this? What if we can find ways of growing with a better spectrum, beat our yields and quality benchmarks, using just a little more power? To me that is a win; if using 10% more power means 10% more yield and a better quality then im fine with that.

G/w goes even crazier when comparing autos, the longer cycle means those watts give more light during the day per watt.
 

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