LED and BUD QUALITY

[SaveTheBrains]

I was looking at a Sanlight Evo but any recommendations are more than welcome. The growshop where I go has plenty of options, Gavita etc. Thinking of this one for the 152x152x225 sativa tent. Costs around 600€ with the dimmer etc but I've heard only good about these.

This supposed to be from the best around. Many people have them and they kicking asses.


I Use one module of that Sanlight is 50 watt has for the far red and green but I prefer a mixure of led s the Hlg boards , with Sanlight and with a cob 3500k .

What I have noticed is the sanlight colours the plants red pinkish alot more from others leds I use


What has surprising Quality and super cheap and seems Haze to like it alot and is not much talked is this black cobs makes very dense flowers and no colouring .

 

[Rocket Soul]

This supposed to be from the best around. Many people have them and they kicking asses.


I Use one module of that Sanlight is 50 watt has for the far red and green but I prefer a mixure of led s the Hlg boards , with Sanlight and with a cob 3500k .

What I have noticed is the sanlight colours the plants red pinkish alot more from others leds I use


What has surprising Quality and super cheap and seems Haze to like it alot and is not much talked is this black cobs makes very dense flowers and no colouring .



View attachment 19078207

Its one of the few brands that doesnt seem to have their production in China. They also work very closely with osram and have access to their best diodes.

 

[SaveTheBrains]

Its one of the few brands that doesnt seem to have their production in China. They also work very closely with osram and have access to their best diodes.

Yeah they are and I saw very good results., Is very good choice and they have crazy life span 100000 hours plus they can be repaired. Is very good value for money .

 

[Rocket Soul]

Yeah they are and I saw very good results., Is very good choice and they have crazy life span 100000 hours plus they can be repaired. Is very good value for money .

That sounds very good but i suspect too good to be true. Generally these numbers, lm70 and such, are based on lab tests and diode lifespann is actually shorter in real life in the more rough environment of a grow space. At least the few real life tests ive seen support faster deterioration than indicated by diode manufacturers and youre likely to have a power source failure sooner than 100000 hours. But i guess in the end we will see in 15-20 years how many are still using the same 2024 bought light.

But i fully agree that Sanlight would probably be one of the top quality and durability lights on the market, its just that i wont believe 100000 hours until i see it.

 

[SaveTheBrains]

That sounds very good but i suspect too good to be true. Generally these numbers, lm70 and such, are based on lab tests and diode lifespann is actually shorter in real life in the more rough environment of a grow space. At least the few real life tests ive seen support faster deterioration than indicated by diode manufacturers and youre likely to have a power source failure sooner than 100000 hours. But i guess in the end we will see in 15-20 years how many are still using the same 2024 bought light.

But i fully agree that Sanlight would probably be one of the top quality and durability lights on the market, its just that i wont believe 100000 hours until i see it.

I totally agree in that ,manufactures put out the life spam of their leds and boards and others dont claim so long hlg is 50000 for example . it matters also how the set up is tuned to run the cheap led usually run like a tuned car at the max .
Also you can repair them but yeah I agree time will say what is what we just need to wait .

 

[chiesesganja]

Sourd (karma)x panama x neville haze

 

[Rocket Soul]

I totally agree in that ,manufactures put out the life spam of their leds and boards and others dont claim so long hlg is 50000 for example . it matters also how the set up is tuned to run the cheap led usually run like a tuned car at the max .
Also you can repair them but yeah I agree time will say what is what we just need to wait .

Dug out the migro tests, about 5% loss for 6000 hours. Though im not crazy about Migros test methodology i do appreciate one part of the approach: its based on at cannopy measurements so quite relevant and nice to have an independent measure from the manufacturer. The test run here is not in a damp grow environment and very unlikely to suffer other stuff going on in a grow for example sulfur spray thay is very damaging to the diode. Its hard to extrapolate numbers; next 6000 hours will it drop from 95 to 90% or should we expect a 5% drop in the remaining 95%? Is it 95 - 5 or 0.95*0.95? We dont know.
Since his measurements are driver included can we actually make sure its only the diode or could there be a loss of driver efficiency aswell? We simply wont know but there seems to be a fair possibility that the complete package of a led light will lose output faster than the topline number manufacturer quote from the datasheet.

What we can make out is that temps seem to be very relevant: hottest running light lose output faster. Nowadays people seem to shun active cooling cause historically a light that had a fan included would burn out if the fan fails. But you may actually get an advantage in lifetime by just having some air move over your heatsink.

Also generally these output graphs are done running the diode at nominal and all these light had current over nominal, at least the qb would be 120mA while samsung tests are 65mA.
But 100000h seems a lot. And very easy to say when you know that most grows lights will be out of use before. Its hard for people to stay growing with the same light for that much time: you either get the urge to buy a new light just because; most will either stopp growing after some years or cannot resist the urge to get something new a few years down the line. So no matter how you turn it its going to be very improbable that there are many lights in use after that much time.

 

[ReprobateMind]

Are these VPD charts accurate? So, if my temps are at 82 F I want the rH to be between 52 and 60% humidity?

 

[chiesesganja]

Are these VPD charts accurate? So, if my temps are at 82 F I want the rH to be between 52 and 60% humidity?

I always ask a question?this vid chart for sativa o indica ? Which strains? Coco o hydro ?

 

[ReprobateMind]

Yeah, IDK. I'm growing in soil. Strain is Loompa's Headband x Triangle Kush.

 

[Rocket Soul]

Are these VPD charts accurate? So, if my temps are at 82 F I want the rH to be between 52 and 60% humidity?

I suggest using vpdchart.com, its an absolute superb resource which allows you to calculate including leaf temps

 

[Rocket Soul]

I always ask a question?this vid chart for sativa o indica ? Which strains? Coco o hydro ?

Vpd is for all plants, not specific strains or grow media. It is how temps and rh combine to create transpiration; which key for nute uptake.
Though i advice to not use it as some kinda 10 commandment thing. If your led plant doesn't have a good posture; erect leaves point outwards/upwards have a look at the vpd chart and try to adjust your climate towards the ideal zone for your growth stage. Continue until your happy with how it grows and can see a nice fat leaf boner on the leaves. Your pics show happy plants to me so dont change it just cause of a chart.
Vpdchart.com
For leds the leaf temp is usually around 0 or -1C than ambient

 

[SaveTheBrains]

Dug out the migro tests, about 5% loss for 6000 hours. Though im not crazy about Migros test methodology i do appreciate one part of the approach: its based on at cannopy measurements so quite relevant and nice to have an independent measure from the manufacturer. The test run here is not in a damp grow environment and very unlikely to suffer other stuff going on in a grow for example sulfur spray thay is very damaging to the diode. Its hard to extrapolate numbers; next 6000 hours will it drop from 95 to 90% or should we expect a 5% drop in the remaining 95%? Is it 95 - 5 or 0.95*0.95? We dont know.
Since his measurements are driver included can we actually make sure its only the diode or could there be a loss of driver efficiency aswell? We simply wont know but there seems to be a fair possibility that the complete package of a led light will lose output faster than the topline number manufacturer quote from the datasheet.

What we can make out is that temps seem to be very relevant: hottest running light lose output faster. Nowadays people seem to shun active cooling cause historically a light that had a fan included would burn out if the fan fails. But you may actually get an advantage in lifetime by just having some air move over your heatsink.

Also generally these output graphs are done running the diode at nominal and all these light had current over nominal, at least the qb would be 120mA while samsung tests are 65mA.
But 100000h seems a lot. And very easy to say when you know that most grows lights will be out of use before. Its hard for people to stay growing with the same light for that much time: you either get the urge to buy a new light just because; most will either stopp growing after some years or cannot resist the urge to get something new a few years down the line. So no matter how you turn it its going to be very improbable that there are many lights in use after that much time.

That is a good points made and thanks for sharing I agree with you.

I dint like Migro approach either for one reason only that he is a salesman and not a grower .
The result publishes are always benefiting someone in specific way something like corona statistics .

He has the screen on in the HLG, is not needed or manufactures recommends. Why he has it ? cause effect the results and he knows it . Also in what wattage he runs them is very crucial this also affect the temperatures.
Hlg has 288 diodes , from manufacture consumes around 135 watt and at max dim is approximately 163 watt. His cob he runs at 100 watt at max power end I run the same at 65 watt .

So this is tailor made to justify the loss at a cob led that is operated at the max of his capacity

low wattage low heat I run them low and I have alot of lights to counter the intensity with out squeezing them at max , I also noticed that the plants likes it more that way 2 sources of light instead one that gives the strength of two .

 

[Prs2xs]

Dug out the migro tests, about 5% loss for 6000 hours. Though im not crazy about Migros test methodology i do appreciate one part of the approach: its based on at cannopy measurements so quite relevant and nice to have an independent measure from the manufacturer. The test run here is not in a damp grow environment and very unlikely to suffer other stuff going on in a grow for example sulfur spray thay is very damaging to the diode. Its hard to extrapolate numbers; next 6000 hours will it drop from 95 to 90% or should we expect a 5% drop in the remaining 95%? Is it 95 - 5 or 0.95*0.95? We dont know.
Since his measurements are driver included can we actually make sure its only the diode or could there be a loss of driver efficiency aswell? We simply wont know but there seems to be a fair possibility that the complete package of a led light will lose output faster than the topline number manufacturer quote from the datasheet.

What we can make out is that temps seem to be very relevant: hottest running light lose output faster. Nowadays people seem to shun active cooling cause historically a light that had a fan included would burn out if the fan fails. But you may actually get an advantage in lifetime by just having some air move over your heatsink.

Also generally these output graphs are done running the diode at nominal and all these light had current over nominal, at least the qb would be 120mA while samsung tests are 65mA.
But 100000h seems a lot. And very easy to say when you know that most grows lights will be out of use before. Its hard for people to stay growing with the same light for that much time: you either get the urge to buy a new light just because; most will either stopp growing after some years or cannot resist the urge to get something new a few years down the line. So no matter how you turn it its going to be very improbable that there are many lights in use after that much time.

Really good point you made about the driver efficiency - I've never seen a test that tried a new driver after testing the diodes for output. It shows the flaws in the "scientific method" that some of the testers of the equipment use!

 

[Rocket Soul]

Really good point you made about the driver efficiency - I've never seen a test that tried a new driver after testing the diodes for output. It shows the flaws in the "scientific method" that some of the testers of the equipment use!

Im not sure id say flawed since it does represent the situation in a grow room very well; watts in compared to light on cannopy is very relevant for the grower.

Its just that these tests cannot be generalized as you would never be able to untangle what is diode and what is driver.

But sometimes, and this also go for some serious scientific work (lets say im not saying its not BB...), you get the feeling that there is a motivation behind the way that the results are presented and used afterwards. Its so easy for someone whos not schooled in scientific method to confuse "we could not prove an effect" with "we have proven there is no effect". And when you see how phrasing and formulations, graphs etc all seem tailored to get people to think the latter its easy to get the feeling that theres ulterior motives behind it, especially when there is some external comercial interest which isnt quite obvious...

 

[chiesesganja]

Vpd is for all plants, not specific strains or grow media. It is how temps and rh combine to create transpiration; which key for nute uptake.
Though i advice to not use it as some kinda 10 commandment thing. If your led plant doesn't have a good posture; erect leaves point outwards/upwards have a look at the vpd chart and try to adjust your climate towards the ideal zone for your growth stage. Continue until your happy with how it grows and can see a nice fat leaf boner on the leaves. Your pics show happy plants to me so dont change it just cause of a chart.
Vpdchart.com
For leds the leaf temp is usually around 0 or -1C than ambient

So all cannabis plants require the same environment??

 

[Rocket Soul]

So all cannabis plants require the same environment??

No, but the concept of vpd is not "ideal cannabis environment" its about the environments tendency to make the plant transpire. Which is really important to the plant, especially with leds which dont heat the leaves in the same way as the sun or HID which means that you have to tweak the environment a lot more than with "hot" light sources in order to get it to drink properly, which in turn determines how much nutes the plant draws.

It is temps and RH as a combined measure, to see how much water in absolute terms could be absorbed by the air before it reaches full saturation. RH is relative humidity, how many % relative to total saturation. But the amount of water that can be dissolved in the air increases with higher temps. So say (just using example values here) that we have a situation of 10C /75% rh and just for this example lets say you could dissolve 10ml in a liter of air before it reaches 100% RH and reaching the dew point; where water from the air creates due in your grow space.

Now say we got another situation of 30C / 75% rh and (again just example values to demonstrate) here the air could dissolve another 40ml per liter of air before reaching 100% rh.

In both examples we have 75% rh but in the high temps situation you could dissolve 4x more water; thus making the air "more thirsty" and forcing the plant to transpire more heavily in higher vpd environments. The charts you see online gives you an indication where youd like to be for different stages of growth: if you have too low transpiration then the plant gets saggy and wont take up all the nutes it needs. If you have to high transpiration there are troubles aswell, the stomata can close due to draining too much water out of the plant and again youll see the plant looking unhappy.

Transpiration is a complicated issue cause its not only influenced by this, its also influenced by light intensity, spectrum (blue opens the stomata while green closes it) co2 levels (the higher the co2 the more the stomata closes which inhibit transpiration) and i think even the airpressure influence it.

So its a good idea to think of vpd as a tool rather than a goal: if you can see your plant looking low and saggy then look at your vpd for your grow space. Adjust accordingly and see how the plant reacts. For a fully happy looking plant (like the ones in your pics ) there is little need to adjust it.

Another issue would be when you see nute deficiencies: if your vpd is on point then you can deduce that the deficiency isnt transpiration related but down to either low nute levels or ph being slightly off. But if your vpd is out of wack (and consequently you see saggy sloppy leaves) then your best bet is try push it towards the ideal. With leds youd also want to keep an eye on temps if you are running really intense light since the temps will also affect the plants metabolism; cold plants cant take full light intensity even if you have your vpd in order.

I hope this helps, and also encourage you to not to worry too much about it until you actually see problems in your grow. Maybe experiment a little but do not think that vpd supercedes what your plant is telling you with its own behaviour. A tool, not a goal.

There are also sometimes reasons to abandon the whole concept: for example towards the end of the grow, if you care more about quality than yield, you may wanna run slightly colder and less rh than vpd would indicate just to not lose terps and thc, as heat and high rh tends to diminish them both.


I dont know if theres a better way of explaining this and i might be wrong, anyone with a better definition or explanation is very welcome to correct me

 

[doc_loomis]

Very well explained @Rocket Soul, just to add to this, the VPD is also crucial when drying and curing. We're just developing a product and this is one of the main metrics for us.
So even after the plant is dead it's a good idea to keep an eye on the VPD.
Hopefully we'll be able to go to market soon

 

[Rocket Soul]

Very well explained @Rocket Soul, just to add to this, the VPD is also crucial when drying and curing. We're just developing a product and this is one of the main metrics for us.
So even after the plant is dead it's a good idea to keep an eye on the VPD.
Hopefully we'll be able to go to market soon

Thx for the kind words and im looking forward to see what u develop; its very strange that there isnt a simple product for vpd that doesnt cost an arm and a leg.

Please inbox me some info when appropriate

 

[greyfader]

nice to see this kind of discussion on this thread. everyone trying to find answers rather than attacking one another. very cool!

on the subject of organics and ec meters. ec meters read mineral salt content and organics don't usually contain any mineral salts and so don't create a usable reading.