LED and BUD QUALITY

[maryjaneismyfre]

I note that you also get higher THC readings from outdoor grown weed. In all the UV arguments I've seen on these and other forums (including the arguments I've been directly involved in), this is the irrefutable evidence everyone seems to ignore.

And it's not just cannabis growers but hemp growers who have seen the same over the years.

The real trick is knowing how much, what type and when to apply that UV.

Not necessarily the UV in my case, as this is across many different environments, including high tech light supplementation with HPS and sunlight, so those plants too were getting same UV, and our UV is very high here as we live close to the ozone hole...but the LED indoor for example tests higher thc than high tech sun under hps, but what it comes down to is DLI...more light more oooomph to a point. The high tech houses are highbays with refridgeration paneling sides creating lots of shade and wasting light, the low tech houses are low bays and take full advantage of the summer sun. Both zones had new plastic put before this season, bot the same plastic, new and lets UV through.

My apogee meter maxes out at over 2000ppfd at least 2 hours before midday during peak summer sun as days are getting shorter and budding begun in full momentum, you don't get close to that indoors. Seems to me to come down to mainly how much quality light the plant receives, to a point, with all other factors being met. We are lucky here with amazing sunshine, though summer days start getting short early, by feb here outdoors plants are in flower normally where dec 22 is the summer solstice here. I was flowering right through summer with light deps, but not even that middle summer sun could compete with the low bay low tech summer crop, as the greenhouse design saps too much light away..

 

[Ca++]

Good results outdoor, don't point directly to UV. It's one of a number of possibilities. Irrigation for instance. Outdoor there may be non, or minimal. While indoors water use is lowering with cooler plants and co2 usage. Extending the fertigation frequency, but also the time spent wet. A wet plant has less need for protection methods against the sun.

Just some thoughts on the subject..

 

[Rocket Soul]

Have another look at those 281 nrs using the samsung led selection tool using the same drive current: using like for like in voltage and flux bin; the difference is much smaller, 4k 80cri AZ voltage bin / top flux bin: the pro+ clocks in at 217l/w and the standard 281+ at 203 l/w. This is what i tried to explain, the datasheets dont compare like for like; one has test values at 65mA the other at 150mA. But if you calculate for this then the difference is much less.
The real question is are you able to find the bins? Cause youre average china company is not going to be able give it to you. They will either source lower bins themselves and pass them off as higher, or someone vefore in distribution is going to sell them as top bin. And ordering from samsung seems trickier than youd think, they wont always sell you top flux / low voltage unless you are a regular customer.
The diode performance is as much depending on spec and technology as the companies distribution practices. Dont matter if samsung has a great super bin unless you can actually buy it.
I think @Prawn Connery has more experience in this with his boards as i believe they evaluated both samsung and nichia real life performance with precise and reliable equipment.

In actual tests there is very little difference between the pro and standard 281b+; it comes out as 2.81 vrs 2.75 at same.current, about 10lum/w difference, see led-tech.de for tests

Edit: 301bs came out as 2.95, less diffrence than what id expect.

 

[CocoNut 420]

Coastal blueberry.

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

Good results outdoor, don't point directly to UV. It's one of a number of possibilities. Irrigation for instance. Outdoor there may be non, or minimal. While indoors water use is lowering with cooler plants and co2 usage. Extending the fertigation frequency, but also the time spent wet. A wet plant has less need for protection methods against the sun.

Just some thoughts on the subject..

Yes and maybe probably no...

This season for the first time I had clean plants, so for the first time for me at scale could I see the same strains in a multitude of different environments. I had indoor less UV, HPS high PPFD (1200+) sealed rooms. same with with LED at high PPFD, high UV high tech high bays, light sup and light dep with some climate control, heating dehumidification, shade and wetwalls, low tech houses low bay and no climate except extraction and a small high tech low bay testbed with high (650ppfd at canopy) light supplimentation and airconditioning dehumidification for night and wetwalls and extraction for day. All were on same medium. I had my nutrition worked out a decade ago, all on same food and I had most on a relatively high but not too high EC and the last bit of crop on a lower one as was difficult to water independantly of the rest of the zone so got basically a flush feed during half of its bulking stage. And I have my watering SOP's dialed in now for the drip, crop steering and all that, they were being pushed to their max, hence me transplanting sections of clones at times into flower and harvesting 7-8 weeks later 4-5ft tall bushes of bud dripping and ready.
As well my IPM is on point and no major pest outbreaks and only one or two susceptable varieties affected to any degree ( a % or two losses) to botritus. I had environments where VPD was on point throughout with complete climate control in sealed rooms, CO2, cooling heating dehueys and misting and all was the same the varietals. I had environments where nights are heating and drying and day VPD and temps kept in limits through evap cooling, to low tech where its 24/7 air exchange and no light or shade and you have to deal with what God gives you...in that enviroment VPD is all over the show and temps ranged from mid to high 30s in the day to 10-12 at night and humidity from 95% to 30% in a 24 hour cycle..LOL...so I literally had every environment, with the same clean cuts, and food watering and medium all the same and dialed in...and I have the resources behind me to get everything tested, nevermind the crops are all for export so every batch has to get sent in for testing.. The previous 3 summers with the same environments and different crops, maybe watering not so dialed but food dialed and medium dialed. With pest outbreaks as bosses not wanting to spend money on IPM (they learnt their lessons), and viroid infected plants with all sorts of degrees of infection, the results would have been all over the show..

In fact a doctorate student did her thesis experiments here 2 years ago, borrowed a space in a greenhouse, and she duplicated blocks of 50 different genetics ten times from one end to the other of the greenhouse and as there is a temperature gradient from the wet wall to the front, so the plants showed different expressions, of course more foxtailing and abnormal growth relative to higher temperature, and the plants where taller in each block and stretched more as a response to temperature increase each block as you went away from the wetwall..And thats what her thesis was done on. Now.......in hindsight...Those results aint worth shit..LOL Because this year, with a hotter summer but my running production in that zone, the plants were like a lawn. The heights of plants from front to back of the greenhouse were within a cm or two of each other. The bud was all the same from front to back greenhouse and from top to bottom of the plants, there was no popcorn bud, no foxtailing, just rank dank huge colas like that greenhouse has never seen. Now...What is the difference? The students tissue cultures she recieved from switzerland to do her research on, I can assure you they were ALL infected with viroid. My ten cultivars I ran this year were not. The results of this years crop blew me away. My best crop ever. We've pulled multiple times more marketable bud out the same spaces in a summers cycle. The vigour and speed of veg is unreal, the rooting is unreal. The way the bud can take advantage of high light when its clean is unreal. I should actually just shut up at this point and let everyone else figure it out for themselves over the next few years..

And this is what I found. highest THC was in low bay summer crops irrespective of light sup or not. Irrespective of nice environment or not and irrespective of relative UV levels, with all other factors being the same and dialed. As a mentor of mine on here, DHF, used to tell me, theres no replacement for displacement. Prof. Bugbee found the same until viroid screwed all his experiments up and results went all over the show and they had to start everything over again..now he sells his courses so you won't hear too much about post that reset...

But of the indoor, I mean HPS and LED...much over muchness once they respectively dialed. And in climate controlled sealed rooms the negatives of less heat of LED become irrelevant. Less heat means more efficiency as if its not being lost as heat then its coming out as light, so less power on aircon etc..Anyway with mercury lamps being phased out, it is the future whether we like it or not. My prettiest bud I think comes out the sun grown stuff, but indoor Id have to say LED. The LED maybe a little more terpier, I dont know, will have a look at the tests. We can test these days LOL..THC..between the LED and HPS rooms, its much over muchness in the same enviroment with same light level. Maybe the LED a little higher but much over muchness.

 

[Ca++]

You can get Hg free green powers, I have used them for ages. The banned of Hg shouldn't move you away from decent HPS.

Getting nuisance free greenery, isn't so easy. I to have had to trash everything and start again. It's strange though, as I could run things indefinitely in the past, but now keeping clean is a hard work.

Something has happened, but I don't have the farming connections to know if it's just to canna growers, or if there is a wider problem. I must visit some plant nurseries and see how there stock looks.

 

[Prawn Connery]

LED quality time.

Not mine, but someone using my lights and clones. Strain is Sweetopia by Paradise Seeds, grown in living soil.

Experimental cross.This is a Citral x White Widow clone I originally grew from Paradise Seeds test seeds. This cross shares the same parent (Citral Kush) as the Sweetopia above. It actually has a nicer high, but the Sweetopia smell and taste are something else.

 

[I Care]

I am watching some information and raising a question for me.

Which spectrum is most responsible for the volatilization of THC?

 

[I Care]

To be clearer on this question. What color in the light spectrum is most responsible for volatization of THC?


And a couple more

Is there a color that is known to be the producer?

Is anyone still using color changes with LED?

Another

Or, is that a thing of incandescence past?

 

[weedemart]

notice how the topic, term and thinking changed.

keep digging.

 

[Hiddenjems]

Australian Aborigines are the oldest continuous culture on earth. They may not have a higher "IQ" but if you dropped a Han Chinese person naked in the Australian dessert, the Aboriginal would live and the Chinese would die. Regardless of "IQ".

Our physical traits, including how we measure intelligence, are a product of our environment. East Asiatic people have flatter faces and extra layers of fat under their eyes to protect their extremities from the biting cold winds of the Asian Steppes. Long noses and high cheekbones (Europeans) are more susceptible to windburn and frostbite. Asian seasons are both hotter in summer and colder/windier in winter for the same latitude, hence why Asians also have slightly darker skin than Europeans.

Intelligence can be measured without any cultural references. People that think Iq tests are biased have never taken a real iq test administered by a professional in person over the coarse of a couple hours.

 

[Prawn Connery]

Intelligence can be measured without any cultural references. People that think Iq tests are biased have never taken a real iq test administered by a professional in person over the coarse of a couple hours.

It's because I've taken those tests that I know cultural knowledge and physiology (including phenomenal short and long-term memory in the case of the Australian Aboriginal) will help you survive in the Australian desert where high IQ alone will not. If high IQ offered an evolutionary advantage to surviving in the Australian desert, then it would be reflected in standard IQ tests of Australian Aboriginals.

Which is the point I was making. IQ is not the be-all, end-all in terms of evolution.

If your point is that Intelligence Quotient – as defined by standard tests – transcends race, then you are correct. Which is why I didn't use the term IQ; I merely said "Our physical traits, including how we measure intelligence, are a product of our environment."

Some interesting reading on the subject here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...d the intelligence of,proposed by Lynn (2006).

 

[Prawn Connery]

I am watching some information and raising a question for me.

Which spectrum is most responsible for the volatilization of THC?

It's not strictly spectrum that causes cannabinoids to volatize, it's kinetic energy (heat).

Some electromagnetic radiation, such as infra-red, interacts with water molecules in a way that imparts kinetic energy at a faster rate than other forms of radiation (think microwave oven), but I am unaware if that also applies to THC-D9 molecules.

 

[Prawn Connery]

Is there a color that is known to be the producer?

We believe yes. The UVR8 pathway (photo receptor) is believed responsible for the photomorphogenic response that leads to cannabinoid expression (which is also genetic).

UVR8 absorption peaks at about 280nm but still absorbs into the blue range beyond 400nm.

This is a graph of UVR8 absorption with a close-up of the tail. Photomorphogenic response is strongest at highest absorption and weakest at low absorption.

The thing to understand is that the same response can be elicited from either short exposure to strong UVB or longer exposure to weaker UVA, Violet and Blue light. Conversely, strong UVB will photo-oxidise cannabinoids faster than weak UVA, so it is a balancing act between stressing/stimulating cannabinoid production and destroying it at the same time.

In nature, UV peaks for an hour or two each day and then the plant has the remaining 20-22 hours to recover and synthesise more cannabinoids in preparation for UV exposure the following day. That's why short exposure to UVB is better than long exposure, and why longer exposure to UVA can produce the same results as short exposure to UVB.

 

[shiva82]

We believe yes. The UVR8 pathway (photo receptor) is believed responsible for the photomorphogenic response that leads to cannabinoid expression (which is also genetic).

UVR8 absorption peaks at about 280nm but still absorbs into the blue range beyond 400nm.

This is a graph of UVR8 absorption with a close-up of the tail. Photomorphogenic response is strongest at highest absorption and weakest at low absorption.

The thing to understand is that the same response can be elicited from either short exposure to strong UVB or longer exposure to weaker UVA, Violet and Blue light. Conversely, strong UVB will photo-oxidise cannabinoids faster than weak UVA, so it is a balancing act between stressing/stimulating cannabinoid production and destroying it at the same time.

In nature, UV peaks for an hour or two each day and then the plant has the remaining 20-22 hours to recover and synthesise more cannabinoids in preparation for UV exposure the following day. That's why short exposure to UVB is better than long exposure, and why longer exposure to UVA can produce the same results as short exposure to UVB.

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have you programmed any sort of pattern into your uv and ir diodes to try and mimic the natural output the best you can? or is it either on , or off? can it be programmable to be intermittent use of uv and ir ? i like the idea of channels, but can these channels be customised further to pulse at certain times of the day?

 

[Ca++]

It's not strictly spectrum that causes cannabinoids to volatize, it's kinetic energy (heat).

Some electromagnetic radiation, such as infra-red, interacts with water molecules in a way that imparts kinetic energy at a faster rate than other forms of radiation (think microwave oven), but I am unaware if that also applies to THC-D9 molecules.

When the summer comes around, I notice a lot of peoples filters fail. On the hottest days, I suspect it's almost like a regen. As the filter gives up a lot of what it stored at lower temps. It's the peak days of summer, where the smell really covers the neighbourhoods. You could almost hold a rizla in the air, to test if thc was present. Though IIRC we really need about 180c to see total losses. Bud kept in storage will loose smell over time, but iirc thc degrades, rather than leaves. It's one of the more resilient chemicals, when we look at losses over time. Which offers a suggestion regarding the more immediate problem, of losses during the grow.

 

[hyposomniac]

Is anyone still using color changes with LED?

Another

Or, is that a thing of incandescence past?

Been seeing more of "tunable spectrum" lights, dimming (or just turning off, not sure) different colors independently. So it's still a thing.

 

[Prawn Connery]

have you programmed any sort of pattern into your uv and ir diodes to try and mimic the natural output the best you can? or is it either on , or off? can it be programmable to be intermittent use of uv and ir ? i like the idea of channels, but can these channels be customised further to pulse at certain times of the day?

No. We've gone the "less is more" route, which is lower energy UVA (405nm) for the full 12 hours (less energy, more time). 405nm is also photosynthetic, so we get a bit more "bang for buck". We reduce 450nm levels to compensate for the extra UVA/Violet/Blue (405nm is in the Violet region but also straddles UVA; 400-500nm is also considered "blue" by RGB definition).

Multi-channel lights are a good idea for some and a bad idea for others. For multi-channel LEDs you need multiple drivers and an inbuilt-programmable timer. This adds to complexity and cost, whilst reducing system efficiency.

The other problem is the human factor. How many times have you read on these and other forums "When should I run UV? How long should I run UV? Should I run UV throughout veg and flower? Should I run UV at the end or beginning of flower" etc?

When you make things complex, only complex people can use them. A lot of people will fuck up things they don't understand and get worse results.

For example, all the stupid Chinese LED companies telling you to run UV at the end of flowering instead of at the start and in the middle. In nature, UV is lowest at the end of flower and highest mid-way through veg.

Chinese don't grow cannabis. They don't research it and they don't innovate – they simply copy what everyone else is doing and then substitute the cheapest parts for the highest margins. They have no interest in producing the best quality cannabis.

 

[Ca++]

Been seeing more of "tunable spectrum" lights, dimming (or just turning off, not sure) different colors independently. So it's still a thing.

I think everyone that was going to convert to LED has. That was a lot of sales volume, but is now done. All them good time boom companies are now on the brink, and need to sell us something new. Even the true horticultural brands have sold enough to make pricing competitive for home use. LEDs can now be found second hand. It's a saturated market.

Today it's add on bars, and fancy wifi controllers they want us to buy. So you can do that 2 hours, but not with a timer. Oh no. You need the app. This spectrum chasing promise is alluring, but look how many people stick with HPS. A spectrum LED lights have not tried to sell us. Not long ago, plants couldn't see green, and it bounced off. Then green had the best penetration. I think if your light works, use it. Let the experts chase their tales, unless something happens. This spectrum chasing takes decades to produce results, which will be instantly shared. Until then, buy what we understand. Which is really what it's always been. Cooler light for veg and warmer light for flower. Or just buy one light, and be done with it. The answer to a decent grow, isn't a bit of electronics you just buy.

Edited to say isn't as I typo'd it's (making a totally contrairy comment)

 

[CannaT]

I found out that with HPS and led mixed up there is no "to much" light from leds I can put buds at 5cm from led board nothing will be burned or bleached on plant.
Its bad light spectrum from leds and plant dont know to behave properly under it.

Thatd just my speculation based on few previous runs I got under HPS/led mixed up.