LED and BUD QUALITY

[Rocket Soul]

My LED has a couple rows of red nodes so the problem has been understood just need new LEDs or go with 3000k

That is one take. You could also argue that both the electric sky and HPS are relatively low in green, while still having a good cover of red.

Only satisfying thing I find when I google crazy farmer 320 from tue US is a guy getting naked and going through a hay bail compound.

Not sure when I’ll be ready for an investment, but the desire is to get an array set up. An improved rig with the same idea as my 20x36inch 50x90cm) but with a 32x32in (80x80cm).

Am I wasting my time and investment on anything not LM301b diodes?

301bs arent that special; good on durability, thermals, efficiency and such, but theres no secret sauce in them, same spectrums as for most diodes, except for EVOs. The efficiency gains: can be reached by just driving diodes softer. Or reach higher output (the whole point of efficiency) by using just q pittle more power. 2-3x lm281b+ pro to 1x 301b is about equal

 

[Verdant Whisperer]

I was thinking it was the genetics the last 5-6 year that has been the decline in quality of herb available where i live, but honestly i think the issue is due to all grows switching over to led's the buds all have this clear white color, where before it looked more mature closer to sun grown with hps. while some of the tastiest bud's i've smoked are led's probably due to lack of terpene evaporation ect. but they don't hit like the hps or sun grown.

 

[Rocket Soul]

I was thinking it was the genetics the last 5-6 year that has been the decline in quality of herb available where i live, but honestly i think the issue is due to all grows switching over to led's the buds all have this clear white color, where before it looked more mature closer to sun grown with hps. while some of the tastiest bud's i've smoked are led's probably due to lack of terpene evaporation ect. but they don't hit like the hps or sun grown.

Nothing beats sun grown in taste and smell, as long as you have decent genetics to start with. With the led buds i honestly think its not really led, rather 4000k + 660nm: High Efficiency spectrum which is the reason of both lack of taste/smell and kick. Too much green and youll drop quality somewhat but further more its going to be difficult to bring that quality back with reds/uv if already so prevalent. Imho

 

[I Care]

I saw lm281sumthin somewhere. A light that has individual analog switches for the daylight and reds. No dimmer, seems durable. If I can fish it out if the internet again and find that it has the + or not.

I saw some 2200K led HPS replacements. Only the hood, no ballast requirement. It’s 8000 lumens at 54 watts.

 

[I Care]

Just your typical, cheap, consumer. I go through the internet finding the cheapest stuff that will work. Until I get hung onto something and my imagination brings me back to that idea later.

I know I’ll have some indoor entertainment. I don’t read so I guess a cheap light is going to be like a good book for me.

Going to set it up this weekend and see what happens compared to other plants under couple 6500k tubes through the week.

What @Ca++ says about mothers is a good suggestion for this light for now. I really need to get some branches going before I get any cuttings. I don’t wanna be a cheap ass with possible winners here, just have no other choice right now. I’ll have a germination station, an light rig and a night rig to better manage the space that the 5x5 was in. With nearly the same cubic volume.

I found the little array I was looking at..
Sonlipo, it’s cheapest on eBay for 200w version with switchable spectrum. less than 50p a watt at full power. Thinking this is good for individual efficiency of the diodes.

Amazon says LM281+, eBay says SMD+. Is that the same thing?

 

[Rocket Soul]

Just your typical, cheap, consumer. I go through the internet finding the cheapest stuff that will work. Until I get hung onto something and my imagination brings me back to that idea later.

I know I’ll have some indoor entertainment. I don’t read so I guess a cheap light is going to be like a good book for me.

Going to set it up this weekend and see what happens compared to other plants under couple 6500k tubes through the week.

What @Ca++ says about mothers is a good suggestion for this light for now. I really need to get some branches going before I get any cuttings. I don’t wanna be a cheap ass with possible winners here, just have no other choice right now. I’ll have a germination station, an light rig and a night rig to better manage the space that the 5x5 was in. With nearly the same cubic volume.

I found the little array I was looking at..
Sonlipo, it’s cheapest on eBay for 200w version with switchable spectrum. less than 50p a watt at full power. Thinking this is good for individual efficiency of the diodes.

Amazon says LM281+, eBay says SMD+. Is that the same thing?

SMD means surface mounted device; any thing that gets soldered onto a circuit board. All of these chips are SMDs. Dont know what smd+ stands for, probably just a misprint.

 

[I Care]

SMD means surface mounted device; any thing that gets soldered onto a circuit board. All of these chips are SMDs. Dont know what smd+ stands for, probably just a misprint

Irie, thats the thing with eBay, the seller’s descriptions arent always complete.

 

[Ca++]

8000 lumens at 54 watts isn't terrible. I don't think the 281b does any better, once implemented in a fitting (iirc they are 160lm/w under test conditions. The + is more like 200lm/w and I forget where the pro fits in. It all needs checking before purchase)

 

[Rocket Soul]

8000 lumens at 54 watts isn't terrible. I don't think the 281b does any better, once implemented in a fitting (iirc they are 160lm/w under test conditions. The + is more like 200lm/w and I forget where the pro fits in. It all needs checking before purchase)

Some of the 218bs have a test current of 150mA (160lum/w) while some have a test current of 65mA which means that its more than just different spec going on here.

 

[Ca++]

Some of the 218bs have a test current of 150mA (160lum/w) while some have a test current of 65mA which means that its more than just different spec going on here.

Being a 301 snob, I had to have a better look
The 281b is (edit:not) listed anywhere except China. I think it used to exist, but isn't even a copy now.
The 281 is a 0.5w package, 2.8mm X 3.5mm. The 301 is a 0.2w package, 3x3mm. We see this in the industry as sizes used by everybody. 2835 and 3030, respectively.
From a thermal point of view, this favours the 301.
The 301b is 220lm/w
The 281+ Pro is 213lm/w
The 281+ is 165lm/w.
This makes one of them top shit, and the other just everyday shit.

I went through the graphs, but this rather wide gap seems to be right. Yet the Plus was actually designed for longer life, not more light. It's generally specified at the same 65mA as a 301, meaning 0.2w not it's 0.5w place in things. It's for long service applications, and as such is expected to be used in a manner to prolong it's life. Not just ran at a full watt with a dastardly and mutley snigger.

All this long life talk, has to be raising the question. 500 cycles.
Yes, your slack bottom jaw heard me right. It's rated 500 full thermal cycles, but from a lowly -45 to +125c. LEDs often fail due to physically breaking up. The 3.0mm package is less prone than the 3.5mm package, as the 3.5mm has 1/6th more movement. 15 years ago people would be taking a soldering iron to their loose components. Then we had board with thin slices to accommodate more expansion/contraction. Today we seem to be over that, but still the internal stresses are quite real.

This all adds up the the need of chips that are good at making light, but not very good heaters. Then we want lots of them. Looking at a 288QB of 301's we find 140/288=0.5w each. We want all the chips we can get, and they want to sell us the least amount possible. Then we want them on a good heatsink. Not a flat plate like some want to sell us. Some tests on a reasonably finned 288QB and found the most efficient part in terms of lumens per watt, was a cooling fan added on top.

Looking at a meanwells 7 year expectancy, LED depreciation suggests we change them at 3.5 years. Which is quite demanding on your supplier. I don't think the industry is geared up towards lamp changes, when trying to sell us the LED dream.

 

[I Care]

It’s pretty difficult to find information on many of the lights available.
Is it possible to throw your money away on a light that, in regards to efficiency, does not compete with conventional horticultural lighting? Because of a lack of understanding for the variables in quality.

The learning curve seems like it’s going to cause its troubles. Hundreds possibly upon hundreds, and also have to provide optimal for the plant will find the light to be acceptable.

Compare that with the simplicity of conventional lighting and it’s kind of risky to buy expensive LED lighting if you’re just getting going. I say risky, but I guess I should say it’s a large commitment buying LED. Because of the high capital investment, compared to conventional lighting.

It’s like the ultimate example for the metaphor, more money more problems. The quality is the same, maybe, for a pro level plant nutritionist.

I gotta say that it’s still probably easier for anybody to get all the usual basics that were previously available and still kill it. The thing is it just costs about twice as much to produce good in some places where energy costs have gone up. BUT… if the conventional offerings for indoor environments work in a more forgiving way, maybe it’s a good idea to still recommend and maintain conventional lighting for production of one’s personal requirements.

Say you get an easy 0.5 grams per watt, selecting a tried and tested for decades HPS as a beginner and read cheap books and forum posts from the 90s through til 2010-11. Maybe operating in a place where there is prohibition. Do you really want to see how pro you can go with the newest technology? Or do you want to accept the .5 per watt and know you’ll have some good problem free weed?

Maybe here I am talking to meself again. But maybe I’m onto something here. Is the LED craze really driving tech? or is the demand causing a lot of e-waste to be produced right now. In an area a where conventional lighting could be a much more reliable use of our mineral resources.

It’s really easy to veg under cfl and flower under a small incandescent horticulture bulb. It’s really easy to grow and bud under large incandescent bulbs. For the home grower, simple man trying to get high on the home grown flavor. What should the home grower really be trying to do as a beginner. Let’s say an individual who is looking for advice growing their indoor cannabis first time in their lives.

I want to bridge the gap between the veteran and the first time grower on this topic. What do you really recommend to someone trying to grow better than average commercial offering? I guess you’d give them the options. Can spend however much on modern tech or - less energy efficient half price option is the easier option for obtaining easy result. With very little headache to get started and get some quality puffage in the pipe, someone can use conventional options.

I’m still hoping to find some weed that is better than any weed I ever smoked before LED’s, I guess I’ll just be honest about that right now.

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

When all the genetics has been going down in your area over the last few years seemingly...it is probably not light. In testing, I get the more THC in a cut, the more light, hps, led or sun...most THC in the summer sungrown crop with no lights, as can't beat the sun. Most terps in the cooler lower yielding crops with light supplementation later in the year, and with the sealed LED rooms, especially when running them really cold at the ripen cycle. But that is with clean tissue culture plants, no viroid. With viroid factored in it's all over the show crop to crop, and on a slow downhill slide. I'm still figuring out the LED sealed rooms, but you can really push out good quality herb in them reliably once dialed, with clean genetics.

I was thinking it was the genetics the last 5-6 year that has been the decline in quality of herb available where i live, but honestly i think the issue is due to all grows switching over to led's the buds all have this clear white color, where before it looked more mature closer to sun grown with hps. while some of the tastiest bud's i've smoked are led's probably due to lack of terpene evaporation ect. but they don't hit like the hps or sun grown.

 

[Rocket Soul]

Being a 301 snob, I had to have a better look
The 281b is listed anywhere except China. I think it used to exist, but isn't even a copy now.
The 281 is a 0.5w package, 2.8mm X 3.5mm. The 301 is a 0.2w package, 3x3mm. We see this in the industry as sizes used by everybody. 2835 and 3030, respectively.
From a thermal point of view, this favours the 301.
The 301b is 220lm/w
The 281+ Pro is 213lm/w
The 281+ is 165lm/w.
This makes one of them top shit, and the other just everyday shit.

I went through the graphs, but this rather wide gap seems to be right. Yet the Plus was actually designed for longer life, not more light. It's generally specified at the same 65mA as a 301, meaning 0.2w not it's 0.5w place in things. It's for long service applications, and as such is expected to be used in a manner to prolong it's life. Not just ran at a full watt with a dastardly and mutley snigger.

All this long life talk, has to be raising the question. 500 cycles.
Yes, your slack bottom jaw heard me right. It's rated 500 full thermal cycles, but from a lowly -45 to +125c. LEDs often fail due to physically breaking up. The 3.0mm package is less prone than the 3.5mm package, as the 3.5mm has 1/6th more movement. 15 years ago people would be taking a soldering iron to their loose components. Then we had board with thin slices to accommodate more expansion/contraction. Today we seem to be over that, but still the internal stresses are quite real.

This all adds up the the need of chips that are good at making light, but not very good heaters. Then we want lots of them. Looking at a 288QB of 301's we find 140/288=0.5w each. We want all the chips we can get, and they want to sell us the least amount possible. Then we want them on a good heatsink. Not a flat plate like some want to sell us. Some tests on a reasonably finned 288QB and found the most efficient part in terms of lumens per watt, was a cooling fan added on top.

Looking at a meanwells 7 year expectancy, LED depreciation suggests we change them at 3.5 years. Which is quite demanding on your supplier. I don't think the industry is geared up towards lamp changes, when trying to sell us the LED dream.

Have another look at those 281 nrs using the samsung led selection tool using the same drive current: using like for like in voltage and flux bin; the difference is much smaller, 4k 80cri AZ voltage bin / top flux bin: the pro+ clocks in at 217l/w and the standard 281+ at 203 l/w. This is what i tried to explain, the datasheets dont compare like for like; one has test values at 65mA the other at 150mA. But if you calculate for this then the difference is much less.
The real question is are you able to find the bins? Cause youre average china company is not going to be able give it to you. They will either source lower bins themselves and pass them off as higher, or someone vefore in distribution is going to sell them as top bin. And ordering from samsung seems trickier than youd think, they wont always sell you top flux / low voltage unless you are a regular customer.
The diode performance is as much depending on spec and technology as the companies distribution practices. Dont matter if samsung has a great super bin unless you can actually buy it.
I think @Prawn Connery has more experience in this with his boards as i believe they evaluated both samsung and nichia real life performance with precise and reliable equipment.

 

[I Care]

Trash or Treasure?

 

[Rocket Soul]

Trash or Treasure?

Not treasure in any meaning full way.

 

[Ca++]

Have another look at those 281 nrs using the samsung led selection tool using the same drive current: using like for like in voltage and flux bin; the difference is much smaller, 4k 80cri AZ voltage bin / top flux bin: the pro+ clocks in at 217l/w and the standard 281+ at 203 l/w. This is what i tried to explain, the datasheets dont compare like for like; one has test values at 65mA the other at 150mA. But if you calculate for this then the difference is much less.
The real question is are you able to find the bins? Cause youre average china company is not going to be able give it to you. They will either source lower bins themselves and pass them off as higher, or someone vefore in distribution is going to sell them as top bin. And ordering from samsung seems trickier than youd think, they wont always sell you top flux / low voltage unless you are a regular customer.
The diode performance is as much depending on spec and technology as the companies distribution practices. Dont matter if samsung has a great super bin unless you can actually buy it.
I think @Prawn Connery has more experience in this with his boards as i believe they evaluated both samsung and nichia real life performance with precise and reliable equipment.

Thanks. I had not seen the calc. It's access to the datasets is hard to draw from, but the Pro seems to be considerably better at lower powers. With the gap closing as the power increases. That aligns with the design brief, of using them where lifetime is a big issue. However, the gap seems to often be 15% narrowing towards 5%. With the Plus attaining 165 easy enough, but the Pro needing very exacting circumstances to reach over 200. I could only do a few random LEDs though, as it takes forever.
Disturbingly, at higher powers, with mismatched binning, the Plus was sometimes better. This is far from an exhaustive search, but the Samsung 165/213 seems reasonable, if you intend to drive the Pro at around half the power, as intended.

No manufacturer I know of could be trusted to actually do that. I dare say no manufacturer has made a light with even the 301H, where they run at design spec. There is always a trade-off. Using less LEDs is less points prone to failure. The efficiency drop from driving them harder, means more electric is needed. The cost of which is in the balance, against the saving of using less LEDs. The case for the 281Pro at half power, must be one of maintenance costs, or special installations, such as deep freezers.

I must put the worst 301s through that thing, and hope the situation is better.

 

[Verdant Whisperer]

When all the genetics has been going down in your area over the last few years seemingly...it is probably not light. In testing, I get the more THC in a cut, the more light, hps, led or sun...most THC in the summer sungrown crop with no lights, as can't beat the sun. Most terps in the cooler lower yielding crops with light supplementation later in the year, and with the sealed LED rooms, especially when running them really cold at the ripen cycle. But that is with clean tissue culture plants, no viroid. With viroid factored in it's all over the show crop to crop, and on a slow downhill slide. I'm still figuring out the LED sealed rooms, but you can really push out good quality herb in them reliably once dialed, with clean genetics.

I agree, good quality herb, but not great. the stuff i've run into the last 5 or 6 years lacked the depth of high i experienced in the past. I was thinking it was the genetics but i honestly believe, its the switch in growing styles including more led which are more efficient, and grow beautiful buds that get you high, but the ones I've tried of commercial grown led buds get me high for like 40 minutes then its faded. a joint of half the potency sun grown outdoor bud the high last longer and is deeper. even the white Russian strain which used to be so good down here, it doesn't hit like it used to. i really think its the Leds based on the timeframe when they became popular and when i noticed a decline in the potency. not lab testing but smoke testing. some of the nugs i see now look 10/10 smell 10/10 and the high is like 3/10 for me doesn't hit strong. then ill smoke a joint of some Mexican brick or Columbian and be right.

 

[I Care]

I’m trying to figure out the bulb counts. It does seem that most lights I’m looking at come out to between .2 -.25w no matter what they said for source of diodes. Then the more expensive lights seem to exceed that to be above .3w each. Cheap light is stating to have a total 224 LM301H, 16 Osram Red and 4 UV, but running 150w. If that true an array of little cheap things would be pretty powerful wven as low as 50 percent and last a long time. MSRP was high, maybe they’re actually dumping a good light cause they got no publicity and need to keep the investment money moving.

 

[Prawn Connery]

When all the genetics has been going down in your area over the last few years seemingly...it is probably not light. In testing, I get the more THC in a cut, the more light, hps, led or sun...most THC in the summer sungrown crop with no lights, as can't beat the sun. Most terps in the cooler lower yielding crops with light supplementation later in the year, and with the sealed LED rooms, especially when running them really cold at the ripen cycle. But that is with clean tissue culture plants, no viroid. With viroid factored in it's all over the show crop to crop, and on a slow downhill slide. I'm still figuring out the LED sealed rooms, but you can really push out good quality herb in them reliably once dialed, with clean genetics.

I note that you also get higher THC readings from outdoor grown weed. In all the UV arguments I've seen on these and other forums (including the arguments I've been directly involved in), this is the irrefutable evidence everyone seems to ignore.

And it's not just cannabis growers but hemp growers who have seen the same over the years.

The real trick is knowing how much, what type and when to apply that UV.

 

[Prawn Connery]

Have another look at those 281 nrs using the samsung led selection tool using the same drive current: using like for like in voltage and flux bin; the difference is much smaller, 4k 80cri AZ voltage bin / top flux bin: the pro+ clocks in at 217l/w and the standard 281+ at 203 l/w. This is what i tried to explain, the datasheets dont compare like for like; one has test values at 65mA the other at 150mA. But if you calculate for this then the difference is much less.
The real question is are you able to find the bins? Cause youre average china company is not going to be able give it to you. They will either source lower bins themselves and pass them off as higher, or someone vefore in distribution is going to sell them as top bin. And ordering from samsung seems trickier than youd think, they wont always sell you top flux / low voltage unless you are a regular customer.
The diode performance is as much depending on spec and technology as the companies distribution practices. Dont matter if samsung has a great super bin unless you can actually buy it.
I think @Prawn Connery has more experience in this with his boards as i believe they evaluated both samsung and nichia real life performance with precise and reliable equipment.

^ This is bang on.

Some years ago I was given discreet test results between Samsung's 301B and Nichia's 757 series. The Samsung bins were 5% overstated. The Nichia's were actually slightly understated.

If you look at the architecture of the two chips you start to understand why: Samsung may have its flip chip technology, but Nichia's NF2 pre-fix 757 diodes use two dies per package, which means each die is running at half current.

But bin availability is the elephant in the room, as @Rocket Soul stated: it's no use having the highest efficiency LEDs if you can't produce many of them at a time. And because there is FAR more competition for Samsung diodes for horticulture than Nichia (even though Nichia accounts for over half the world's LED sales! Yes, that's bigger than Samsung and Sanan put together!), then we can negotiate for those top bins and pay a premium for them . . . but at least we know what we're getting.

Nichia always delivers, which is why we keep using them.