LED and BUD QUALITY

[maryjaneismyfre]

I like your setup very good choice for the led panel imo. very clean.

But I promise if you take time to do the drain to waste conversion you will gain a lot in yield, quality and you will save on your inputs too.

Ebb flow is far from optimum rootzone environnement. Rockwool is designed to be irrigate from top to bottom. and since they share all the same rootzone environnement, disease and pathogene spread quickly.

But thats my observation. your number looks great.

At scale, I'm ever only ever trying to recreate the results that I used to get from my dialed in ebb and flow rooms years ago. Practically though to do ebb and flow at scale is a PITA, hence drip drain to waste. When it comes to results, when you know what to do with it, ebb and flow is only a tiny notch below aero in terms of what growth it can achieve, and drip etc comes in well below that, down to how much active aeration is achieved etc. One can however achieve similar results with drip, but you have to have the watering dialed, water content sensors, crop steering etc. But you can setup drip at scale with ease. Each has its advantages and disadvantages, depends on how you work with it and not against it, same as HPS, or LED..

I had the pleasure of meeting one of Wally's Auzzie mates this week, a veteran grower with 50 years growing under his belt. He has been running sealed LED rooms for the last 5 years, says he is growing the best weed he ever has. Says something. To bring this back to topic LOL.

 

[weedemart]

At scale, I'm ever only ever trying to recreate the results that I used to get from my dialed in ebb and flow rooms years ago. Practically though to do ebb and flow at scale is a PITA, hence drip drain to waste. When it comes to results, when you know what to do with it, ebb and flow is only a tiny notch below aero in terms of what growth it can achieve, and drip etc comes in well below that, down to how much active aeration is achieved etc. One can however achieve similar results with drip, but you have to have the watering dialed, water content sensors, crop steering etc. But you can setup drip at scale with ease. Each has its advantages and disadvantages, depends on how you work with it and not against it, same as HPS, or LED..

I had the pleasure of meeting one of Wally's Auzzie mates this week, a veteran grower with 50 years growing under his belt. He has been running sealed LED rooms for the last 5 years, says he is growing the best weed he ever has. Says something. To bring this back to topic LOL.

The issue with ebbflow , rockwool wick water from the bottom.

One of the main interesting property of rockwool is the moisture gradient. When you irrigate from top to bottom the gravity drive water and old nutrient down and it drains , restoring nutrient balance.At the same time it suck new air in the rockwool. Doesnt happen in ebbflow.

So you can achieve better rootzone environnement with top irrigation for these reason.And you avoid all kind of disease too. It avoids nutrients buildup and excess. You waste little water and your nutrient is always in the original ratio. You have plenty control on the crops , as you said , everything can be dialed in.

Theres more but I think thats enought to say you cannot compare ebbflow with top feed. When you have a crops of few thousand dollars of input you dont gamble. Because every ebb flow grower know how pythium can be deadly in those system.

If I had to do ebb flow again, I would buy a chiller which can make thing more costly than top irrigation at the end because of the bill to run the chiller and its even harder to scale.

 

[wh1p3dm34t]

What is wrong with that plant?

grower fcked it up
(overdose Ca, N, temperature swings, he made great job to keep stagnate them )
and not in the 5-6. week but at end of veg and early flowering, after he asked for some help and things finally started to get better a little

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

The issue with ebbflow , rockwool wick water from the bottom.

One of the main interesting property of rockwool is the moisture gradient. When you irrigate from top to bottom the gravity drive water and old nutrient down and it drains , restoring nutrient balance.At the same time it suck new air in the rockwool. Doesnt happen in ebbflow.

So you can achieve better rootzone environnement with top irrigation for these reason.And you avoid all kind of disease too. It avoids nutrients buildup and excess. You waste little water and your nutrient is always in the original ratio. You have plenty control on the crops , as you said , everything can be dialed in.

Theres more but I think thats enought to say you cannot compare ebbflow with top feed. When you have a crops of few thousand dollars of input you dont gamble. Because every ebb flow grower know how pythium can be deadly in those system.

If I had to do ebb flow again, I would buy a chiller which can make thing more costly than top irrigation at the end because of the bill to run the chiller and its even harder to scale.

You say that, but the veteran on there that schooled me in flood drain, used to get 2g/w of tops no larf, per 10 week cycle planting straight into flower with no veg, with rockwool and did it for years at scale too..so you just have to learn to work with the medium. They had a trick to take care of the wicking effect and salt build up at the top of blocks. Flood drain is so productive because of the active aeration, much better than drip, not as good as a handwater top flood, but handwater top leaves you generally with a once a day watering, generative by default. Ebb flow the jist of the system is water coming up is like a piston driving out stale air, and as it drains drawing in fresh air, and key to system is watering up high enough but not too high, quick drain and making sure no plants stand in water, so clean drain away too, then once roots are established you can water like 8 times a day or more, smash them and its a full vegetative steering by default. Each have their advantages and disadvantages. Try setting up greenhouses of flood drain and after attempting one table you'll rip it all out and just put drip lines and learn how to maximize the potential of that. Same with HPS and LED to bring this back..im not going to go into the ebb flow any more but you can learn this in any book on hydroponics in general, not concerning weed, normal one. These are the basic principles, hydroponics has been around for a long time, my first book on hydroponic vegetable production my mom bought me 25 years ago, covers all this in detail LOL nothing is new except the square sine wave ballast double ender HPS's and the modern LEDs...

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

Factor in the prevalence of viroid...and forget ebb flow as far as I am concerned for any sort of production, and any sort of recirculating system..drain to waste only..yeah thats a new change too..LOL..now we know..

 

[Ca++]

I try to keep containment, in terms of the facility, not the individual plants. I'm sure we all wish we could, but know it's only at smaller scale ops where you can think this way.

I moved into a new place, and this stunting showed quite soon. It's steady progression says a lot. It's odd that I moved again, and seem better able to manage it. Perhaps because there is no continuous attack. I lived by a bread factory, and white molds were also an issue there, so I do wonder if it's actually that. There is no good solution to killing mold on cannabis plants though.
I'm open to the idea they could be saved. Truely though, I don't think there is anything left to try. Plus I have years of good grows with these plants prior. Then this steady decline.

I did bring in a new strain to see how it did, and it almost instantly caught up with the others. Which doesn't speak of steadily increasing viral load. Just to mess with my flow chart.

I shall build a quarantine area to keep my stock, while I run a batch of a friends plants.



I think ebb&flow (F&D) might equal aero, and have seen it called an aero system. Run with pebbles, and a very quick F&D cycle, it's doing much the same thing. However the aero has a disadvantage. The F&D (pebbles) offers a displacement of all air, and the roots spread through a media. The aero may reply on air currents, and the roots hang in bunches or sit in heaps, with the water distribution of nft. The water just taking the easiest route.
I really can't figure how to make a competing aero, using sprays, fans, and some sort of spreading. It seems it's only better trait, is the lack of any such thing. Which is simply due to cleaning up between crops.

Unfortunately (clay) pebble weed is harsh, and other pebbles either not round or wet enough. Perhaps I should use pea gravel, as my floor is strong, and I can get a fast flood and drain. "we have the technology"

 

[weedemart]

You say that, but the veteran on there that schooled me in flood drain, used to get 2g/w of tops no larf, per 10 week cycle planting straight into flower with no veg, with rockwool and did it for years at scale too..so you just have to learn to work with the medium. They had a trick to take care of the wicking effect and salt build up at the top of blocks. Flood drain is so productive because of the active aeration, much better than drip, not as good as a handwater top flood, but handwater top leaves you generally with a once a day watering, generative by default. Ebb flow the jist of the system is water coming up is like a piston driving out stale air, and as it drains drawing in fresh air, and key to system is watering up high enough but not too high, quick drain and making sure no plants stand in water, so clean drain away too, then once roots are established you can water like 8 times a day or more, smash them and its a full vegetative steering by default. Each have their advantages and disadvantages. Try setting up greenhouses of flood drain and after attempting one table you'll rip it all out and just put drip lines and learn how to maximize the potential of that. Same with HPS and LED to bring this back..im not going to go into the ebb flow any more but you can learn this in any book on hydroponics in general, not concerning weed, normal one. These are the basic principles, hydroponics has been around for a long time, my first book on hydroponic vegetable production my mom bought me 25 years ago, covers all this in detail LOL nothing is new except the square sine wave ballast double ender HPS's and the modern LEDs...

Ebbflow was good 25 years ago , yes. It's good with low value crops and for hobbyist. Please don't take this as an attack.

But if you are doing it at scale,why would you risk the health of your high value crops on a poorly optimized system.

Theres not much advantages to ebbflow and LOT of disadvantage. As I mentionned before, more irrigation is not a good thing,you prefer bigger medium and less irrigation.Crop steering , yes but doesnt need 8 time per day.

Factor in my previous post and I really dont understand why you keep saying it's much better than drip.

Guess you trolling.

 

[Crooked8]

I like your setup very good choice for the led panel imo. very clean.

But I promise if you take time to do the drain to waste conversion you will gain a lot in yield, quality and you will save on your inputs too.

Ebb flow is far from optimum rootzone environnement. Rockwool is designed to be irrigate from top to bottom. and since they share all the same rootzone environnement, disease and pathogene spread quickly.

But thats my observation. your number looks great.

Been there and done that with top feed dtw. I hate it. Much prefer ebb and flow. And honestly man, with all due respect, you just tried to convince me i could get 90g per plant when im already more than doubling that. Theres disadvantages and advantages to both systems. And my roots by the end of the cycle completely fill the slab and stay white through their entire life. Im not saying were perfect, but we are killing it. I havent seen pythium in our system at all. Quality is our main goal but yield is a close second and were def not slouching in either department. I appreciate your opinion but ive had way better results in ebb and flow. Were getting 3lbs per 720w fixture every 9 weeks. Not a hobbyist and not growing a low value crop, its not just for that….obviously.

 

[weedemart]

Been there and done that with top feed dtw. I hate it. Much prefer ebb and flow. And honestly man, with all due respect, you just tried to convince me i could get 90g per plant when im already more than doubling that. Theres disadvantages and advantages to both systems. And my roots by the end of the cycle completely fill the slab and stay white through their entire life. Im not saying were perfect, but we are killing it. I havent seen pythium in our system at all. Quality is our main goal but yield is a close second and were def not slouching in either department. I appreciate your opinion but ive had way better results in ebb and flow. Were getting 3lbs per 720w fixture every 9 weeks. Not a hobbyist and not growing a low value crop, its not just for that….obviously.

90g off a single 6x6x6 cube that cost 4$ but you can add 1x uni slab under and now your yield can go above 250gr.

I'm not talking about yield anyway.Cannabis is a hyper-accumulator , what you think happens when micronutrients accumulate in the rootzone.

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

..

 

[weedemart]

Sheesh bro its like you didn;t even read my response. I'm not using flood drain but on small scale if you understand it and know how to use it, it will outperform everything aside from aero. Would I run it at scale. No. Would I run aero. No. I'm managing a 130 000ft2 square canopy in flower at the moment, I can't play games with things that are a PITA to setup or run, and I have to dtw. You'll figure it out at some point...

I read. small scale or big scale , dtw outperform everything even aeroponics.

In aeroponics you dont have the microflora that you will have in medium based hydroponics.this is the downside. Not forgetting nozzle clogging and all the tech to run an aeroponics setups.

The only method that compete with rockwool dtw is coco dtw.

coco have an economics edges and its more user/nature friendly.The fact that you can have bio certification is probly an edge too.

but rockwool beat coco in every other aspect.

 

[Crooked8]

Back to the discussion of quality…….
This bin is 3 plants…

 

[Crooked8]

 

[Crooked8]

90g off a single 6x6x6 cube that cost 4$ but you can add 1x uni slab under and now your yield can go above 250gr.

I'm not talking about yield anyway.Cannabis is a hyper-accumulator , what you think happens when micronutrients accumulate in the rootzone.

Not sure what you mean by not talking about yield, you were the one who brought up what i could get by changing block sizes and grams per plant. That was your point that you brought up . You high again or?

 

[Crooked8]

I read. small scale or big scale , dtw outperform everything even aeroponics.

In aeroponics you dont have the microflora that you will have in medium based hydroponics.this is the downside. Not forgetting nozzle clogging and all the tech to run an aeroponics setups.

The only method that compete with rockwool dtw is coco dtw.

coco have an economics edges and its more user/nature friendly.The fact that you can have bio certification is probly an edge too.

but rockwool beat coco in every other aspect.

Im guessing you run dtw. Ever deal with clogged lines or drippers? I have buddies at big scale that have lost plants due to that. Never happened even once to me in flood and drain. But it did in dtw. As for aeroponics, another major flaw there is once your root system gets large enough i dont care how many sprayers you have, the center of the root mass doesnt get sprayed, and eventually starts to get gross. I love my ez cloner but only for propogation, beyond that i find the system way too volatile and a breeding ground for bad bacteria.

 

[weedemart]

Not sure what you mean by not talking about yield, you were the one who brought up what i could get by changing block sizes and grams per plant. That was your point that you brought up . You high again

By changing ebbflow to dtw and using individual blocks inteads of slab , you would increase quality and reliability and reduce your inputs. That was my point.

 

[weedemart]

Im guessing you run dtw. Ever deal with clogged lines or drippers? I have buddies at big scale that have lost plants due to that. Never happened even once to me in flood and drain. But it did in dtw. As for aeroponics, another major flaw there is once your root system gets large enough i dont care how many sprayers you have, the center of the root mass doesnt get sprayed, and eventually starts to get gross. I love my ez cloner but only for propogation, beyond that i find the system way too volatile and a breeding ground for bad bacteria.

No the last time I experienced clogged line was a long time ago.I run 1.1 ec at peak. I have minimum salt buildup.

100% agree with you on aeroponics. I hate it.

 

[Crooked8]

By changing ebbflow to dtw and using individual blocks inteads of slab , you would increase quality and reliability and reduce your inputs. That was my point.

But thats just not true though. I disagree, from experience regarding the quality and reliability aspect. The inputs i agree with though, you get away with using less water so less feed. Thats true for sure. But again, never lost a plant to a clogged line or emitter in ebb and flow, just cant happen. So there goes the reliability argument.

 

[Crooked8]

No the last time I experienced clogged line was a long time ago.I run 1.1 ec at peak. I have minimum salt buildup.

100% agree with you on aeroponics. I hate it.

If i ran 1.1 ec i would starve my plants. I ran 1.4-1.8 ec a few runs ago and they were underfed and i showed that with tissue testing. I posted the lab results along with photos of my deficiencies. Since upping our base feed and supplementing P and K, we corrected the issue. We need to be around 2.0 to stay in good shape. Our lights just put out so many photons we have to keep up with that. Another thanks to @Ca++ who visually diagnosed that quite early

 

[weedemart]

But thats just not true though. I disagree, from experience regarding the quality and reliability aspect. The inputs i agree with though, you get away with using less water so less feed. Thats true for sure. But again, never lost a plant to a clogged line or emitter in ebb and flow, just cant happen. So there goes the reliability argument.

the question is do you test your weed for heavy metals? probly no.