LED and BUD QUALITY

[Ca++]

leds have bigger PAR, hps have higher ratio of lumens

I think you may misunderstand. It may even be entirely backwards. Though irrelevant.

Cannabis growers were once happy talking about floodlights in terms of watts. This was fine as efficiency differences between brands were not gaping great holes.
Then LED came along, and people had to think about efficiency, to explain how less watts made the same amount of light. Light, we quantified in lumens. For it's a common measure of light output. Soon after this, the idea of watts was forgotten, and people wanted proper explanations. It is then we started to talk about the light plants see, as being different to the light people see. Our 600 was loved. It was ~150lm/w which gave near 100,000lm when spread over a meter. Like the sun might. We then learnt our 600 was 1.7umol/w as a plant see's things. However, by this time, LED was very well established. It was really looking back that we recognised what the 600 was actually doing. Putting 1000umol over a meter. Even today, people are reading that for the first time.

They are just different measurements, that can be applied to any light source. The HPS tops out around 150lm/w while the LM301 is over 200lm/w. If we instead measure them as PAR, this favours the HPS. The PAR band is wider, and the 301b puts it's output in the narrower visual band. While the HPS has output outside the visual band. So a larger measurement band favours the HPS.

The lumen measure is really a lot worse than us measuring for PAR. The lumen measure adds extra value to green output. This is because we make better use of green ourselves. The lumen is about how well we see. The plant however, is interested in energy. It doesn't count green as being more use, and so won't be giving it a higher value than what is really there. The PAR range also measures stuff the plant see's, but we don't. PAR is much more relevant than Lumens. Both are more relevant than watts. Though we can use any of the three, for any light source

 

[wh1p3dm34t]

missunderstood what ? technical description of products ?

 

[mm4n]

not really the same, hps are mostly the same regardless of the manufacturer, but leds have several different versions of chips/diodes whatever you call it.. and not to mention it needs a totally different feeding compared to hps...

I get your point, but think that HPS are mostly the same for us who have been using HID systems for 25+ years, not for a new grower.

Try a thought experiment and imagine the opposite point of view:
Bob is a Gen Z young grower who started growing with bridgelux LEDs during the 2020 pandemic.
If after 3 years of LEDs I tell him to switch to an HID system it will probably kill his plants.
The simple difference between different HID lamps is a new world for Bob. But even limiting to HPS, he would have many doubts about the different ballasts and the types of bulbs (240v, 400v, DE), their spectrum (2000K, 3500K, Agro “mixed spectrum”) and the PPF/lumen/lux ratio... and not to mention the problems of temperature, humidity and overfeeding that he will surely have, after getting used to the plant metabolism under LEDs.
From Bob's perspective, after 3 years of acceptable harvests under LEDs, all the problems he has are due to the HPS technology, and not the fact that he doesn't know how to use it properly.

My point is that, perhaps, some grower with decades of experience with HID systems has an ego-bias that prevents him from accepting that in 2024 a novice with 200$ LED can produce better flowers and with less effort than it cost him, in 1994, under HPS.

(I hope I've translated well, english is not my first language)

 

[Ca++]

well, folks, it's been fun but i will be dropping out of the conversation for an indeterminate period of time, because, as of today, i am moving into the new house and won't have internet access there for a while.

ya'll have a good 'un!

You are probably back, to be reading this. So welcome back.
If not, then is a 4g connection no use?
Unlimited mobile data in the UK is like $30US. We can move home, sticking a sim in our router, to keep the service active while there are no lines present yet. Many BB contracts include the sim already, for continuous service.

Some of these 4g+ routers have antenna sockets to improve them further. Over 100gb isn't uncommon on the 4g+ as it's actually a pair of 4g connections. Remote locations use them for BB, where phones are useless.

 

[Ca++]

missunderstood what ? technical description of products ?

I'm not sure, but what I quoted doesn't make sense. Specifically "hps have higher ratio of lumens" So I waffled on a bit, in the hope you could align your ideas with what's likely happening. Or maybe you can explain what you mean, if I'm missing it.

 

[wh1p3dm34t]

bob has to start reading and learning about the needs of a plant, and how to diagnose a suffering unhealthy plant.

 

[wh1p3dm34t]

hps was originally designed to use as streetlights, stadiumlights and various places, with a good visibility for human eye. it was of course modified later with horticulturally better options.

ok i see now since the lm282 diode, what i said is outdated, but it was true before that. it is also important in which spectrum are those lumens, it will decide how deep it is able to penetrate into tissues, which cell will react on it
something like this was the point of that. @Ca++

 

[phunkeeboodah]

edit: d'oh

 

[Ca++]

hps was also recommended medically for sad disorder and a replacement for sun in the winter, while leds are currently being found out to cause damage to human tissues in uses like household lighting and headlights...

For SAD people need the blue back. The sun is redder, when it is lower.
I have fitted 8000K lamps in offices where people suffered.

They suffered before the lamps were fitted to

 

[phunkeeboodah]

I get your point, but think that HPS are mostly the same for us who have been using HID systems for 25+ years, not for a new grower.

Try a thought experiment and imagine the opposite point of view:
Bob is a Gen Z young grower who started growing with bridgelux LEDs during the 2020 pandemic.
If after 3 years of LEDs I tell him to switch to an HID system it will probably kill his plants.
The simple difference between different HID lamps is a new world for Bob. But even limiting to HPS, he would have many doubts about the different ballasts and the types of bulbs (240v, 400v, DE), their spectrum (2000K, 3500K, Agro “mixed spectrum”) and the PPF/lumen/lux ratio... and not to mention the problems of temperature, humidity and overfeeding that he will surely have, after getting used to the plant metabolism under LEDs.
From Bob's perspective, after 3 years of acceptable harvests under LEDs, all the problems he has are due to the HPS technology, and not the fact that he doesn't know how to use it properly.

My point is that, perhaps, some grower with decades of experience with HID systems has an ego-bias that prevents him from accepting that in 2024 a novice with 200$ LED can produce better flowers and with less effort than it cost him, in 1994, under HPS.

(I hope I've translated well, english is not my first language)

i think it is opposite. for a novice grower in winter time, using regular quality pre mixed soil, an hid is fool proof

white led under some of these conditions will fry plants, hence this wave of fried plants now being 'the norm'

but they did this before when tents came along, never bothered to mention that putting a 600w hid in a 3x3 is maybe not the best idea

us novice growers have to fall through through cracks of progress sometimes

 

[Fuel]

The PAR range also measures stuff the plant see's, but we don't. PAR is much more relevant than Lumens. Both are more relevant than watts. Though we can use any of the three, for any light source

I wish to be able to write this kind of concise (whole) post without dangerous shortcuts by lack of grammar.
I enjoyed.

I don't want to give another coin to the last jukebox seen here, but i've a concern in term of observations and i bet on your (nice and balanced) writing style for it i must confess ^^

At same skills/tech ratio (on bottom side), most of the time there is a big gap of results in growlogs between those using pure white leds panel and those using more fancy stuff.

It's where i lost my shit in term of PAR. HPS and 2100K Neons are red as fuck.

I don't understand and i don't process well this obvious gap i see everywhere and it's not even a "pay to win" equation. Some build them with cheap stuff, others use 1K+ branded panels with the same results and the same gap with others panels.

 

[wh1p3dm34t]

i see the same like with the fertilizers sold at growshops, some have fancy bottles and graphics but you can buy much cheaper fertilizers and have similar maybe better results

 

[Hammerhead]

I'm using one of the cheapest LED lights any could lol. It's an off brand 800w LED I paid $250$ new on Amazon. I tested the wattage and at full power, I got 850w.. It has a built in timmer, dimmer. So far the plants I've run under it have had no health issues. All are prying hard under this light. Very healthy happy plants. I'm conflicted when other brand name LED lights that cost 1000$ did not grow any better.

 

[phunkeeboodah]

on the flipside, my supposed high quality kingbrite bleached everything as soon as the fall arrived

swapped to hps and everything is deep green and shiny with perfect tips

and only 130 cdn at crappy tire eh!?

 

[Hammerhead]

Some LEDs have an impact on plant health. The HLG Diablo causes plants to yellow under it. The Mars FCE-6500 never has. I've never needed to alter my feed under it. Both lights are in the same room. Quantum board vs Bar. Wattage is the same. I run the HLG higher up and dimmed it to 600w. This has improved with no yellowing.

 

[CocoNut 420]

on the flipside, my supposed high quality kingbrite bleached everything as soon as the fall arrived

swapped to hps and everything is deep green and shiny with perfect tips

and only 130 cdn at crappy tire eh!?

Tbf that's only due to inexperience, have no doubts about kingbrite, I've been there with them.

When I started using kingbrite led boards I bleached tf out my plants, me being used to hid tried to get the light close for some heat but that doesn't work with boards in particular, there's a centre hot spot that needs a bit distance.

I'm not trying to convince you not to use hid, I like hid as much as the next person, in colder regions they make sense, I don't have a dog in the hid/led fight.

LED and BUD QUALITY

well, folks, it's been fun but i will be dropping out of the conversation for an indeterminate period of time, because, as of today, i am moving into the new house and won't have internet access there for a while. ya'll have a good 'un!

www.icmag.com

I know for certain this was grown with kingbrite 3k boards.

 

[TrifektaSeeds]

Some leds simply can't be too close, either heat or just the light itself is destructive, led is known to hurt tissues, so who knows.

 

[phunkeeboodah]

Tbf that's only due to inexperience, have no doubts about kingbrite, I've been there with them.

When I started using kingbrite led boards I bleached tf out my plants, me being used to hid tried to get the light close for some heat but that doesn't work with boards in particular, there's a centre hot spot that needs a bit distance.

I'm not trying to convince you not to use hid, I like hid as much as the next person, in colder regions they make sense, I don't have a dog in the hid/led fight.

LED and BUD QUALITY

well, folks, it's been fun but i will be dropping out of the conversation for an indeterminate period of time, because, as of today, i am moving into the new house and won't have internet access there for a while. ya'll have a good 'un!

www.icmag.com

I know for certain this was grown with kingbrite 3k boards.

i ended up keeping one bar of the 240w kingbrite set at lowest dimmer to go with the 150w hps but anything more and the plants start to bleach. will see how flowering goes seems the sweet spot for the space

i did get healthy plants in summer with just the led though (see pic) but it's just not enough, the moment things go yellow when the weather gets colder it just goes downhill and i have to wonder if the terps go with it

CANT POST PICS

also interesting is when i did recently get the hps, the grow space emitted more ambient light than the led did (set at 15%, which is the max the plants would allow). so switching lights allowed for brighter conditions so will see how this affects potency and terps

i'm just growing in a walk in closet now so no climate control come winter

 

[Ca++]

Kingbrite know some of their lights are not ideal, but are what people want. They are perplexed by it. I think calling their lights out as a brand, a little unfair. I find what I want from them, and don't recall any bleaching. I just did a run with buds 30mm away from half power QBs. They showed some reddening.

Bleaching would generally suggest too much red light. It can be corrected with less red, or adding in the blue and green that the high red should of come with.
If the bleaching is only under the panel, it's perhaps the better cree 660s you have. I don't use them, as the beam angle is too narrow. They don't compliment the spread of the 301s, like the cheaper cree does, or the epistar.

 

[Ca++]

I wish to be able to write this kind of concise (whole) post without dangerous shortcuts by lack of grammar.
I enjoyed.

I don't want to give another coin to the last jukebox seen here, but i've a concern in term of observations and i bet on your (nice and balanced) writing style for it i must confess ^^

At same skills/tech ratio (on bottom side), most of the time there is a big gap of results in growlogs between those using pure white leds panel and those using more fancy stuff.

It's where i lost my shit in term of PAR. HPS and 2100K Neons are red as fuck.

I don't understand and i don't process well this obvious gap i see everywhere and it's not even a "pay to win" equation. Some build them with cheap stuff, others use 1K+ branded panels with the same results and the same gap with others panels.

Thank you.

The observation is interesting. Though I'm not aware of any lights that are just white, except for cobs. However I have been tempted to order some. KB will make them if I ask.
Usually I'm running white plus 660. Which is what the BIG big brands offer.