LED and BUD QUALITY

[Prawn Connery]

I thought it was a really good explanation, but will add a couple of clarifications to points covered.
All forms of electromagnetic radiation, including infrared (IR) and visible light, can transfer energy and thus create a sensation of heat. However, the perception of heat depends not just on the rate of energy transfer but also on the specific wavelength’s interaction with matter. For example, IR radiation is readily absorbed by many materials, leading to a more noticeable heating effect.
Also, once a leaf reaches ambient temperature, the gradient for further heat transfer does diminish, however the type of heat source can still impact processes like transpiration and cellular stress.

The rate of energy transfer is the perception of heat. The more energy transfer over a given amount of time, the "hotter" it feels.

Energy will always flow from a higher source to a lower source (transfer gradient). When the high energy source contains a lot of energy compared to the low energy source, then the gradient is steeper and the rate of transfer is potentially faster.

The rate of transfer can be impeded by the transfer mechanism itself. Convective transfer is (generally) slower than conductive. Radiative transfer depends on a lot of variables. Radiation can travel from the sun to earth almost unimpeded because it travels through a vacuum, but once it reaches earth's atmosphere, water, air and other molecules start to scatter (Raleigh Scatter explains why the sky is blue) or absorb that radiation.

So UVC radiation is emitted by the sun in large amounts, but does not reach earth because all of it is absorbed by our atmosphere. That is energy that is not transferred to the earth's surface (you and I) and that is lucky, because UVC carries so much energy it would kill us!

When considering radiative energy transfer, some photons carry higher energy than others but may be absorbed at a lower rate, which means the transfer of that energy is slower, and thus feels "cooler".

Visible light carries more energy than infrared. But visible light will pass through water molecules while IR interacts with it, which means IR will "heat" water faster than visible light even though it is less powerful (longer wavelength; Plancks Law) and even if there are fewer photons of IR available.

Remember than once a leaf is heated by IR, the energy that is transferred from the light source via radiation will then transfer within the plant via conduction – mostly via water molecules.

So radiative and convective energy (heat) both end up as conductive energy within the plant cells.

What I want to know is, why would that initial energy source (IR transfer vs ambient temperature/convective transfer) trigger a different photosynthetic or photomorphogenic response in plants if it all ends up as the same type of conductive "heat" inside the plant?

Kinetic energy is kinetic energy, after all.

 

[Prawn Connery]

All this led grow talk is surely fascinating and is ultimately leading to a 1000 diode array with 30 different freqs growing just one huge mushroom looking trichome.

Are we nearly there yet and do we still have to put up with the shitty looking leaves?

What shitty looking leaves? None of us are having trouble with LED. Here are three different growers all under the same LEDs.

These are my seedlings and clones

Here is one of my buds at 4 weeks (no sharpen filter)

One of my friend's El Dorada OG grows at 6 weeks

My other friend's grow at 3 weeks – check out all the side-light LEDs!

In my opinion, we're already "there" and have been for quite some time already.

 

[exoticrobotic]

What shitty looking leaves? None of us are having trouble with LED. Here are three different growers all under the same LEDs.

These are my seedlings and clones
View attachment 18940237

Here is one of my buds at 4 weeks (no sharpen filter)
View attachment 18940236

One of my friend's El Dorada OG grows at 6 weeks
View attachment 18940238

My other friend's grow at 3 weeks – check out all the side-light LEDs!
View attachment 18940239

In my opinion, we're already "there" and have been for quite some time already.

Beautiful plants with no shitty leaves. They look great for 3 or 4 weeks.

The 6 week ones look amazing too, almost starting to look like the structure of hid grown plants

Love the Xmas lights too

Wheredya get them from?

In my opinion, we're already "there" and have been for quite some time already.

I'm not sure we're quite there yet with all the add-ons required but sure heading in the right direction.

 

[JKD]

They look like

Buddies (String LEDs) - Grow Lights Australia

"Buddies" grow LEDs fill the gaps other LEDs can’t reach. Tough, waterproof side-lighting, under-canopy lighting, supplementary Far Red and more.

growlightsaustralia.com

 

[exoticrobotic]

Thankyou @JKD

Can anyone who uses them explain where you could buy a 'driver' for them?

tyia

 

[zachrockbadenof]

i have been closely following this post, but u guys lost me after i plugged in to the outlet...

 

[dogzter]

Hey Arb. Different dog? Sad to see the bully go

How's the censorship . . . er, I mean serenity around here these days? You know what I'm like. I'm not a troll, I was just built that way

Far better than it used to be.........I am here aint I.

Even gypsy and oldpink are in there and everyone plays nice so far.
Getting old seems to have mellowed us all a bit.
Nice to see you're still kicking it bro.

 

[JKD]

Thankyou @JKD

Can anyone who uses them explain where you could buy a 'driver' for them?

tyia

They ship with drivers.

 

[Ca++]

Thankyou @JKD

Can anyone who uses them explain where you could buy a 'driver' for them?

tyia

Their kits provide them, up to 60w in size. The biggest kit includes two, so it's 120w for $500

Just have a think about that for a moment. 120w of light, for 500 Australians. They don't give a lm/w or such measurement either.

They are in the sidelighting thread, with links to the manufacturer iirc. You won't want these, but that thread does offer 240w lm301 sidelight sets for less.

 

[exoticrobotic]

You won't want these, but that thread does offer 240w lm301 sidelight sets for less.

Thanks for the replies

maybe i'll stick with hps/cmh for now although i am pondering adding a few cob mixed spectrum leds, only because i had good results with cmh + led

Which cob mixed spectrum would you advise for supplemental lighting to hids?

 

[Hammerhead]

I tried LED in veg but they couldn't provide enough heat. My veg space couldn't get above 70f on the best day when outside temps are cold. A heat source was necessary. In summer they worked ok BUT I could tell the plants preferred CMH much more. They grew healthier/Happier when temps never went below 80f. Plants were praying hard at 85f. I never got that same response veggin under LED.

I had similar results in flower with low temps. IMO flowering under LED only I'd use a higher leaf temp at 85F. Depending on LED type Quantum board vs Bar can also have an effect IME. HLG I had to up the EC and use Mag. Bar LED I don't need to bump anything worth mentioning.. I dont recommend mixing Board with BAR LEDs. Dialing in the room is extremely difficult IME.

 

[Ca++]

Thanks for the replies

maybe i'll stick with hps/cmh for now although i am pondering adding a few cob mixed spectrum leds, only because i had good results with cmh + led

Which cob mixed spectrum would you advise for supplemental lighting to hids?

You are liking a mix of HPS and CMH, so that seems the colour to go for. No point trying to do something else, when you know what you like. It might not please you. Perhaps some 3000K cobs would supplement them? COBs tend to be some sort of white, so the desired colour temperature is where the spectrum choice ends.



You could look at a colour temperature chart. I'm thing you have about 2200K from your sodiums, and a middling value for CMH might be 5000K. So 3500K ?

Keep in mind that any more blue, than enough to say you have some, tends to errase bud yield. For that reason, I'm leaning towards the 3000K that most old folks have in their lounge rooms. I'm thinking you have your blue levels already, so don't need a veg leaning LED, to suppliment what you have. I would personally use such a colour as my only light, as have many. So as supplimental it's a safe bet. All I would really advise against is 6500K cool white. In bloom, cool white is nobodies choice as a single light source, so there is no point trying to suppliment with it. Your choices are really quite narrowm with little between them. 4000-2700K

 

[Prawn Connery]

Far better than it used to be.........I am here aint I.

Even gypsy and oldpink are in there and everyone plays nice so far.
Getting old seems to have mellowed us all a bit.
Nice to see you're still kicking it bro.

Old Pink? Oh no! Looks like I'll have to hide in the LED section to avoid him

At least Gypsy let me out of purgatory after 15 years, so I'll try to be good.

 

[Prawn Connery]

Their kits provide them, up to 60w in size. The biggest kit includes two, so it's 120w for $500

Just have a think about that for a moment. 120w of light, for 500 Australians. They don't give a lm/w or such measurement either.

They are in the sidelighting thread, with links to the manufacturer iirc. You won't want these, but that thread does offer 240w lm301 sidelight sets for less.

Got a link to the sidelight thread?

Yes they're Buddies. And there's a bit more to them than meets the eye. Full disclaimer: I am affiliated with the company that sells them, Grow Lights Australia. I don't own the company but I design LED lights and do testing for them.

So Buddies use 5050 diodes, not 3030, and the spectrum is superior to anything Samsung produces. They also come with quality Osram drivers.

The white ones are 4000K CRI95 and are best for alround lighting – they are excellent for cloning

The PC Reds have a broad spectrum that covers the red and far red ends of the spectrum

You can mix them 1:1 to get a nice spectrum that is heavy on the red and far red

The other Buddies have 660nm diodes that are 4.2 umol/j and 730 far reds that are around 3.5 umol/j – which is right up there with the most efficient Cree XPG series.

They are waterproof and shockproof (you can run over them with your car) and come with diffuser lenses that soften the light and spread it at almost 180 degrees, so plants can grow right into the lights with no damage.

 

[Prawn Connery]

Beautiful plants with no shitty leaves. They look great for 3 or 4 weeks.

The 6 week ones look amazing too, almost starting to look like the structure of hid grown plants

Love the Xmas lights too

Wheredya get them from?



I'm not sure we're quite there yet with all the add-ons required but sure heading in the right direction.

You don't need add-ons if you buy the right LEDs to begin with. The lights I design include Far Red and UVA, so no add-ons required.

Sorry for the spam, but I work with LEDs a lot and so I'm used to dispelling a few myths about them. Half the problem is the cheap Chinese manufactures who lie about their performance and features and give the industry a bad name. LED grow lights are like everything in life: you get what you pay for.

 

[Ca++]

Light entertainment before bed.

 

[Prawn Connery]

^ No pun intended.

 

[Prawn Connery]

Thanks for the replies

maybe i'll stick with hps/cmh for now although i am pondering adding a few cob mixed spectrum leds, only because i had good results with cmh + led

Which cob mixed spectrum would you advise for supplemental lighting to hids?

What do you have at the moment? Lights, watts, grow area?

I like the CMH spectrum because it has a bit of broad-spectrum blue and UVA. You can get lower CCT CMH as well in the 3000K range with boosted red and far red – the best choice for an alround HID, IMO.

If you're going to add COBs then the first question is why? Do you need more light? Do you need to get temps down? Do you want to change the spectrum?

Work out what you want first and then get the COBs that best meet your needs. You'll see above we mixed LED with CMH to get elevated levels of red and far red light, while the CMH provided UVA and cyan.

There's no point adding a green-heavy LED spectrum to HPS because it already has lots of green, but a small amount of blue can be beneficial.

Generally there is a trade-off between the blue and red ends of the spectrum in terms of yield and quality. This is why many growers who switch from HPS to LED notice an increase in quality (bud density, terpenes, cannabinoids) but a decrease in yield.

My favourite stand-alone COBS are the Bridgelux Thrive series in terms of spectrum, but again it depends on what you're mixing and what end result you want.

 

[Normannen]

Light entertainment before bed.

Your PUNishment won't be LIGHT

 

[Rocket Soul]

You are liking a mix of HPS and CMH, so that seems the colour to go for. No point trying to do something else, when you know what you like. It might not please you. Perhaps some 3000K cobs would supplement them? COBs tend to be some sort of white, so the desired colour temperature is where the spectrum choice ends.



You could look at a colour temperature chart. I'm thing you have about 2200K from your sodiums, and a middling value for CMH might be 5000K. So 3500K ?

Keep in mind that any more blue, than enough to say you have some, tends to errase bud yield. For that reason, I'm leaning towards the 3000K that most old folks have in their lounge rooms. I'm thinking you have your blue levels already, so don't need a veg leaning LED, to suppliment what you have. I would personally use such a colour as my only light, as have many. So as supplimental it's a safe bet. All I would really advise against is 6500K cool white. In bloom, cool white is nobodies choice as a single light source, so there is no point trying to suppliment with it. Your choices are really quite narrowm with little between them. 4000-2700K

Plenty of ways to go with adding led to hid.
When you already have a fairly full spectrum from your mixed HIDs another way of going about it would be targeted lighting strategy;
Either some 660nm leds or for cobs you can also use the Bridgelux Vero 1750k cobs, i think they are made for display lighting meat. Low lums per watt due to spectrum but they are around 50% efficient.