LED and BUD QUALITY

[maryjaneismyfre]

1380w in general per M2 around 400IR and changable light spectrums and intensity during the day.

Right now, it is midday, and I am exiting spring, entering summer, light is good but not the peak light of summer which will start now. My sun is 997w/m2 at the moment. In peak of summer at midday I will be between 1400 and 1700 depending on the ambient haze in the air. That equates to a PPFD that is maxing out meters at well over 2000ppfd. We use LED here, HID, CMH and the sun and all of the above together too. One is just trying to create a good environment, and using all one has at ones disposal to do that. That includes light, temperatures, humidity and all else. Change one main input like light and all else changes and one must learn to use those to achieve the zone ones plants like for which stage they are in.

As said I used to be in the HID camp, but LEDs have overtaken them, one can't ignore it anymore
My previous posts, that one instagram account should have ended any debate.In any case everything is measured these days for large commercial growers, terps etc. you know what the effects are from your variables as you can measure them these days..you can use new age higher efficiency lights to create even more suitable environments for growth if you can put it all together..many are successfully doing so.

Terps will be dictated, if the same clone, by disease level (viroid etc), food, light levels, humidity and temperature etc. If one has the same humidity, same temperatures, food dialed in, and more light, one would generally get more terps, as photosynthesis is what limits all of it at the end of the day and if all else the same and more photosynthesis, more by products of that photosynthesis are created. The plant evolved to live in much higher light than the light we grow it in indoors. As Prof. Bugbee found, you can increase the light and if all other needs are met, the yield and quality increase directly proportionately, and if co2 needs are met by incoming fresh air enough, co2 supplimentation only starts making a difference over 2000ppfd he found! well..Something we always took advantage of in air exchange rooms with rooms volume turning over rapidly faster than once a minute, and ones HAF movement dialed in the canopy, then we did better in high light rooms than same rooms sealed with CO2 not fully dialed, leaking rooms etc. Anyway the future is sealed rooms, sure power cost may go up multiple times, but if one is on it, one can exponentially increase yield by increasing light and knowing what to do with it, and controlling climate exactly to be where you want it to be, and doing it run in and run out repeatedly. Soon it won't be economically feasible to run indoor unless one is at that level, except for a personal smoke, as one won't be able to compete with those that are.

But even as Prof. Bugbee found, what they were measuring and trying to dial in, became pointless, once they had figured out what was the cause for all the experimental anomalies that they were seeing..which was an infectious viroid disease that has spread to most gardens by now. They may not have advertised it, but believe me they worked it out.

 

[CannaT]

Right now, it is midday, and I am exiting spring, entering summer, light is good but not the peak light of summer which will start now. My sun is 997w/m2 at the moment. In peak of summer at midday I will be between 1400 and 1700 depending on the ambient haze in the air. That equates to a PPFD that is maxing out meters at well over 2000ppfd. We use LED here, HID, CMH and the sun and all of the above together too. One is just trying to create a good environment, and using all one has at ones disposal to do that. That includes light, temperatures, humidity and all else. Change one main input like light and all else changes and one must learn to use those to achieve the zone ones plants like for which stage they are in.

As said I used to be in the HID camp, but LEDs have overtaken them..you can use them to create even more suitable environments for growth if you can put it all together..many are successfully. Terps will be dictated, if the same clone, by disease level (viroid etc), food, light levels, humidity and temperature etc. If one has the same humidity, same temperatures, food dialed in, and more light, one would generally get more terps, as photosynthesis is what limits all of it at the end of the day and if all else the same and more photosynthesis, more by products of that photosynthesis are created. The plant evolved to live in much higher light than the light we grow it in indoors. As Prof. Bugbee found, you can increase the light and if all other needs are met, the yield and quality increase directly proportionately, and if co2 needs are met by incoming fresh air enough, co2 supplimentation only starts making a difference over 2000ppfd he found! well..Something we always took advantage of in air exchange rooms with rooms volume turning over rapidly faster than once a minute, and ones HAF movement dialed in the canopy, then we did better in high light rooms than same rooms sealed with CO2 not fully dialed, leaking rooms etc. Anyway the future is sealed rooms, sure power cost may go up multiple times, but if one is on it, one can exponentially increase yield by increasing light and knowing what to do with it, and controlling climate exactly to be where you want it to be, and doing it run in and run out repeatedly. Soon it won't be economically feasible to run indoor unless one is at that level, except for a personal smoke, as one won't be able to compete with those that are.

But even as Prof. Bugbee found, what they were measuring and trying to dial in, became pointless, once they had figured out what was the cause for all the experimental anomalies that they were seeing..which was an infectious viroid disease that has spread to most gardens by now.

I have this expirience 2 that with leds I got better smell and taste. But always is missing SC and Alchocols.
SC are being made through stress and Led lights while they give more light its very "easy light".
So plant want produce much of SC..its just as it is.

I also get more yild under leds with HPS I got max was 0.9/gpw while with leds it easily goes 1.3/gpw or slightly more.
I dont say that leds are worst to hps but I like more flowers that are produced under HPS.
First time I will have HPS/leds or Leds/hps depends where plant is located and will see how mixed spectrum works.
I found out after mixing hps and leds plants need to be watered more friquently.
And yild is going through the roof by the look.
have atm 1200w leds mixed with 1200w hps.

 

[exoticrobotic]

That's interesting your combination of hps with led. I've tried cmh with led and the smoke was really nice but i didnt get the yield increase with it vs just led.

The smoke was well above average and pleasantly surprised me. I hope you get the best of both worlds with your hps/led combo.

When i ran just led i was surprised to get around 1.3gpw.

With just cmh i got closer to 0.7 gpw but it was an old bulb.

Although the led showed much greater flower yield (almost double) i was much more surprised when i ran both to bubble hash as i got much more and much finer hash returns from the cmh.

 

[CannaT]

That's interesting your combination of hps with led. I've tried cmh with led and the smoke was really nice but i didnt get the yield increase with it vs just led.

The smoke was well above average and pleasantly surprised me. I hope you get the best of both worlds with your hps/led combo.

When i ran just led i was surprised to get around 1.3gpw.

With just cmh i got closer to 0.7 gpw but it was an old bulb.

Although the led showed much greater flower yield (almost double) i was much more surprised when i ran both to bubble hash as i got much more and much finer hash returns from the cmh.

Its still speculation,scale isnt say its words yet.

 

[exoticrobotic]

Lots of uncontrolled variables, yes.

and not weighed, but i did everything the usual way, feed schedule etc.

 

[Ca++]

I'm mixing. I don't have a solid LED only reference though. I was consistent for a few, then was getting consistently worse, over a couple of year. Went back to mixing, and the clock turned back. Over a few, I'm 80% good again. I think the next one will be fine. I'm over the 18 per meter again, which I see as a minimum, when working plants listed around 600-650gpm. I did it with miracle-gro as a base to, so just messing about really. Having had my mojo taken away by the two years of constantly getting worse. I thought it might be virus related, but they are bouncing back with some HID. I must add, that a change in location is just as likely to be taking the pressure off my plants. Mold levels were climbing at the LED only location, but near non-existant at the new place. Which could be the real key factor. Though the first was LED only, and just about as bad as I left off at the last place.

With 71% of the big boys using LED in 2022, we will be getting plants selected under it now. I think that will help the cause. All my stuff is selected under HID, so it does make sense that it will do better there. However, my yield dribbled away to about half of where it started. An outstanding failure, though the product was alright and plant health appeared okay. They just lacked energy.

 

[Cerathule]

As Prof. Bugbee found, you can increase the light and if all other needs are met, the yield and quality increase directly proportionately, and if co2 needs are met by incoming fresh air enough, co2 supplimentation only starts making a difference over 2000ppfd he found!

Really?? I don't think so. What's the source for that info? Bugbee said in a Micro interview that Cannabis does always benefit from increased CO2 supp, even at lower PPFD. You can also see this in Chandra's studies.

 

[CannaT]

Ok resrch a bit why plant grow towards HPS.

Plants use infrared (IR) light primarily for photosynthesis and environmental sensing. Specifically, they use the far-red spectrum (around 700-750 nm) of IR light to gather information about their surroundings. Here's how:

1. Photosynthesis: While plants mainly use visible light for photosynthesis, they also absorb some infrared light. This absorbed energy can help enhance photosynthesis and overall plant growth.
2. Phytochromes: Plants have photoreceptor proteins called phytochromes that are sensitive to the far-red spectrum of light. These phytochromes play a crucial role in various growth and development processes, including seed germination, stem elongation, and flowering.
3. Environmental sensing: Plants use far-red light to monitor the quality and quantity of light in their environment. This information helps them make critical decisions, such as when to compete for light or when to allocate resources for growth.

If plants do not receive enough far-red or infrared light, several consequences can occur:

1. Impaired growth and development: Lack of far-red light can disrupt the plant's ability to sense its environment and adjust its growth patterns accordingly. This can lead to stunted growth and reduced overall plant health.
2. Delayed flowering: The absence of proper far-red light cues can delay flowering, affecting a plant's reproductive success.
3. Reduced photosynthesis: Although not the primary light source for photosynthesis, the lack of infrared light can reduce a plant's overall photosynthetic efficiency, leading to reduced energy production.

In summary, infrared light, particularly in the far-red spectrum, is essential for various aspects of plant growth, development, and environmental adaptation. Without an adequate supply of this light, plants may face challenges in their ability to thrive and reproduce.

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

I'm mixing. I don't have a solid LED only reference though. I was consistent for a few, then was getting consistently worse, over a couple of year. Went back to mixing, and the clock turned back. Over a few, I'm 80% good again. I think the next one will be fine. I'm over the 18 per meter again, which I see as a minimum, when working plants listed around 600-650gpm. I did it with miracle-gro as a base to, so just messing about really. Having had my mojo taken away by the two years of constantly getting worse. I thought it might be virus related, but they are bouncing back with some HID. I must add, that a change in location is just as likely to be taking the pressure off my plants. Mold levels were climbing at the LED only location, but near non-existant at the new place. Which could be the real key factor. Though the first was LED only, and just about as bad as I left off at the last place.

With 71% of the big boys using LED in 2022, we will be getting plants selected under it now. I think that will help the cause. All my stuff is selected under HID, so it does make sense that it will do better there. However, my yield dribbled away to about half of where it started. An outstanding failure, though the product was alright and plant health appeared okay. They just lacked energy.

Did you happen to take cuts off moms, and start new moms, for the new HPS site? Viroid load was probably rising in LED site, and one chased away from load a little in new site, or new medium (ie. lower viroid load) or something....that just sounds like viroid to me thru and thru...I'm at scale here, 30000 plants flowering right now, different blocks of different moms of different ages and I can should you blocks of more or less affected plants, more or less vigour, more or less yield, more or less mold...its all relative viroid levels thats all. As soon as you scale past a point its all laid out infront you and you can't ignore it anymore. As soon as you smaller than a point, its easy to not see it as one refreshes moms all the times, grows go up and down and up again without one realizing ones only at 70% of potential in the best looking crop.

 

[Cerathule]

Ok resrch a bit why plant grow towards HPS.

Plants use infrared (IR) light primarily for photosynthesis and environmental sensing. Specifically, they use the far-red spectrum (around 700-750 nm) of IR light to gather information about their surroundings. Here's how:

1. Photosynthesis: While plants mainly use visible light for photosynthesis, they also absorb some infrared light. This absorbed energy can help enhance photosynthesis and overall plant growth.
2. Phytochromes: Plants have photoreceptor proteins called phytochromes that are sensitive to the far-red spectrum of light. These phytochromes play a crucial role in various growth and development processes, including seed germination, stem elongation, and flowering.
3. Environmental sensing: Plants use far-red light to monitor the quality and quantity of light in their environment. This information helps them make critical decisions, such as when to compete for light or when to allocate resources for growth.

If plants do not receive enough far-red or infrared light, several consequences can occur:

1. Impaired growth and development: Lack of far-red light can disrupt the plant's ability to sense its environment and adjust its growth patterns accordingly. This can lead to stunted growth and reduced overall plant health.
2. Delayed flowering: The absence of proper far-red light cues can delay flowering, affecting a plant's reproductive success.
3. Reduced photosynthesis: Although not the primary light source for photosynthesis, the lack of infrared light can reduce a plant's overall photosynthetic efficiency, leading to reduced energy production.

In summary, infrared light, particularly in the far-red spectrum, is essential for various aspects of plant growth, development, and environmental adaptation. Without an adequate supply of this light, plants may face challenges in their ability to thrive and reproduce.

It's not "essential" because you can grow just fine without it. But it brings alot of beneficial aspects to the table.
HPS has actually not much FR in the region you are describing (700-750nm). Also, the Pr : Pfr-ratio of HPS is very low, much lower than in sunlight or metal halide HID.
Though this is largely irrelevant to the point made because plants grow towards the source of strongest blue light flux - it's called "phototropism", they use UV/blue light receptors for that.
It could be that your LED gives out light from too many sources and thus the plant perceives it as diffuse ambient light and not direct light. In this sense a HID bulb acts just much more original as they outside sun that is a 2-3° small approximate "point source" of light where still more than 60% of a sunplants energy comes from.

 

[Ca++]

Did you happen to take cuts off moms, and start new moms, for the new HPS site? Viroid load was probably rising in LED site, and one chased away from load a little in new site, or new medium (ie. lower viroid load) or something....that just sounds like viroid to me thru and thru...I'm at scale here, 30000 plants flowering right now, different blocks of different moms of different ages and I can should you blocks of more or less affected plants, more or less vigour, more or less yield, more or less mold...its all relative viroid levels thats all. As soon as you scale past a point its all laid out infront you and you can't ignore it anymore. As soon as you smaller than a point, its easy to not see it as one refreshes moms all the times, grows go up and down and up again without one realizing ones only at 70% of potential in the best looking crop.

The day before my plants go into flower, they provide the next plants. There is no mum as such. Some of these plants have been with me 15 years or so, and you wouldn't believe how consistent I have been if I told you. Then came LED, and a bit of an increase for 3 identical runs, before it was coming down every run for 2 years. That's 15 runs. Down each time. I noticed it straight away, as my yields don't change without a good reason.
I moved them as cuts, but did nothing for 3 months or more. Just kept them in a 40 cell seed tray. I was surprised they stayed small enough for so long, so not the picture of health. I'm remembering this as I type. It was those I did, with no real change. But actually, it was no change in yield, but the plants were terrible. So I guess I had already left the problem behind, and since them, I have been building my grow up. Just carrying in buckets, with a mess or wiring. When it should be tidy and automated. It's like it's not my grow. Doing 3 a year, and this last run I didn't even fetch any feed. Totally slack, and not the grow I should be doing. The plants though.. bouncing back in response to everything I do. I think the last location was bad, and I would always get a cough on my days off work. Though it was an apartment, so no damp, and I had a 'full' water analysis and an air quality monitor over the place. The biggest clue I think is how crap buds were still getting white mold in 7 weeks. Always white, not the usual things. I have not seen white mold here, but the smallest amount of rot, that was insignificant. I have 2 computer fans for air movement, so really should of had more. The yield will of suffered from that alone. I got my 6 in mid bloom. A 4 before that, which missed the first run. It's a mess tbh. Them getting better isn't because of my efforts, that is for sure.

I have never done something even close to the size of your grow. Adding it all up though, I have certainly seen a few plants. I'm the only person I know, that can look at an empty room and say within a couple of oz what it will do in my hands. So just loosing 2oz had me asking for help, to peoples bemusement. In 15 runs I had changed everything except the location, including my LEDs. Nothing stopped the decline, until I was elsewhere, with different lighting. Though the actual turn around point isn't quite so clear, with the first run doing the same, but with terrible plants.

Most odd, and probably not worth airing. Its a lot of words about nothing.

 

[Ca++]

They left on nir (840nm) 24/7

Bottom pics are cannabis. They did the study to look at the effect of security lights.
They certainly noticed it.

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

Really?? I don't think so. What's the source for that info? Bugbee said in a Micro interview that Cannabis does always benefit from increased CO2 supp, even at lower PPFD. You can also see this in Chandra's studies.

Yeah I see that interview now..they must have done more experimenting. In earlier research they only found that if the airflow through the canopy was 1m/s then enough fresh Co2 was provided to keep photosynthesis ticking along up to 2000ppfd thereafter one needed Co2 to increase photosynthetic rate. Seem more Co2 is beneficial at lower light too, though at lower light does one get the benefit/extra yield to outweigh the extra cost of co2. Also co2 might be cheap, but to run co2 is not initially, and the running costs of a co2 room are considerably higher, to run co2 one must run a sealed room to take advantage of it, which entails installing/ running aircons, dehueys, humidifiers etc and a controller operate it all and the power to power it all, the power bill doubles at least normally triples for a sealed co2 room. So it is not necessarily a cheap fix all, your costs double on production per square foot, but you can more than double your yield per square foot and that more than covers the increase in costs, if one uses it properly. I've seen folks achieve over silly g/w these days with co2 sealed rooms etc. when they have it dialed in. I'm still learning the finesse of that setup, I don't have it dialed yet but keen to learn, seen it done.

That said as well, with proper air exchange, running rooms at night, I normally measure over 600ppm co2 in the rooms during lights on, closer to 700ppm and some nights over that. I am not even in the city but in the farmlands on the outskirts of the city. Once you are measuring, as with most, often one is surprised.

 

[Hammerhead]

Adding HID with your LED has a better spectrum IMO. My flower room is 12x10 with a single 1kw CMH in the center of the room surrounded by LED's. I prefer CMH over HPS. I tried LED vs LED/CMH. You guys know what I went with lol. I'm growing for quality, not quantity..

Also, plants can sense how close/near other plants/objects are to them using infrared light. Plants use infrared light for photosynthesis just like they use visible light. Infrared light also plays a part in the blooming of flowering plants and gives your plants a little bit of heat radiation that actually stimulates growth in three ways: Better Blooming, due to a type of photoreceptor that plants contain called phytochromes. No, they don't need IR to grow. IMO that effects quality.

 

[Crooked8]

Day 22 cranking this thicket the best I can

 

[greyfader]

Day 22 cranking this thicket the best I can
View attachment 18912965
View attachment 18912967 View attachment 18912968 View attachment 18912969 View attachment 18912966

nice canopy! how do you work on the plants in the middle of it? i keep looking for wheels on those racks but don't see any. the way they're built it looks like you can pull them apart.

 

[Crooked8]

nice canopy! how do you work on the plants in the middle of it? i keep looking for wheels on those racks but don't see any. the way they're built it looks like you can pull them apart.

Rolling benches my friend, i can slide each tray side to side with ease. I love them!

 

[HalfArsedFarmer]

Once again. Thank you to all contributing here and thank you for keeping this an adult debate.

My eyes are fudged from an evening of reading.

As an ex NFT commercial table grower on HPS I can say that from seeing old friends running legal rooms their results have not dropped off using LED.

My own exp with LED is the same, apart from the learning curve of hungrier plants & not seeing burning/bleaching of plants with height distance causing stress. I'm a convert.

I have not bred under them yet though and I do recall Hammer head saying they had better results when creating fem seed under HPS compared to LED.

 

[CannaT]

Once again. Thank you to all contributing here and thank you for keeping this an adult debate.

My eyes are fudged from an evening of reading.

As an ex NFT commercial table grower on HPS I can say that from seeing old friends running legal rooms their results have not dropped off using LED.

My own exp with LED is the same, apart from the learning curve of hungrier plants & not seeing burning/bleaching of plants with height distance causing stress. I'm a convert.

I have not bred under them yet though and I do recall Hammer head saying they had better results when creating fem seed under HPS compared to LED.

If you have dialed led you will get high quality and terp bomb. But you want get alchocols and sulphure compounds cuz plant dont need to make them or it make tham in small amounts.
Its just different...I never say that led are bad...every type of lightings have their pro and cons depend on climate you live,grow room/box you have...
I train my brain for years not to judge complex things as they are in nature with simple epithets. Good, bad, better, worse. If we have a precise purpose then we don't have much choice. But in the case of led and hid lights, there are many variables that affect the final result, so it is stupid to say which is better and which is worse. We must first determine the purpose for which we will use it and what conditions we have, only then can we move on to simple judgments.

 

[Hammerhead]

Once again. Thank you to all contributing here and thank you for keeping this an adult debate.

My eyes are fudged from an evening of reading.

As an ex NFT commercial table grower on HPS I can say that from seeing old friends running legal rooms their results have not dropped off using LED.

My own exp with LED is the same, apart from the learning curve of hungrier plants & not seeing burning/bleaching of plants with height distance causing stress. I'm a convert.

I have not bred under them yet though and I do recall Hammerhead saying they had better results when creating fem seed under HPS compared to LED.

I thought I had updated that discussion. It was about making fem pollen under LED. It was the lack of heat with LED that caused that issue. Without the heat, the STS couldn't penetrate through any residual IPM oils left on the plants. All we got were partial reversals or none. After I figured this out we started washing the plants off with RO before STS was applied.. Under CMH/HPS we don't need to do this as it burns off any residual oils better before STS is applied.