LED and BUD QUALITY

[exoticrobotic]

led lighting drives the plant at a higher metabolic rate at any given wattage.

It also changes the plant's structure and growth habit.

led grown plants for the most part seem to have far fewer fan leaves present to support flower growth/general plant health.

 

[Crooked8]

It also changes the plant's structure and growth habit.

led grown plants for the most part seem to have far fewer fan leaves present to support flower growth/general plant health.

Can you show an example of this? Ive never seen anything grow with less fan leaves as a result of lighting. That doesnt add up for me with all due respect.

 

[exoticrobotic]

That's been my experience under leds. Unfortunately no photos from then.

I see it in many other led grows too, but I don't want to show other people's photos and then say something that maybe perceived as negative ...Even though it would be a comment on growth habit and not grower skills lol.

Plant's look different when grown hid vs led. Large flowers but less side branching less leaf growth, thicker leaves.

 

[exoticrobotic]

Maybe it was observed due to not being in the vpd range with leds.

 

[Normannen]

Visually, I would take that bud on the right, every time.

I'm not so sure LED does give the plant an easier time. Looking at peoples adoption attempts, it seems the subject of VPD came into existence for home growers, just because of LED. While the blue is stressful. Lowering yield in many papers, while triggering protection responses, which are ultimately more smells.

The extra environmental demand could be viewed as a separate issue, that can be corrected without touching the lights. However, the HID plants, as baked as they were, were easier to look after. So LED has that butterfly effect of causing stress for the plant.



Indeed. Nobody can be exact either. It's right at the forefront of our understanding, and so more of an idea than sound fact. You align with the idea though. Observation has shown a link between FR and stretch, but biology shows links not to stretch, but to other things. Biology shows blue linked to processes around stretch. The red stuff, is just interference, is all we can show. Observation shows some flowers totally ignore the Pr when blue is sufficient (80umol in one paper) while I have seen flowers where Pf accounted for just over 50% of the stretch response. So it's not clean cut. Nor are they cannabis, which is said to follow the first example.


Thank you for talking this through with me. It's been helpful. Perhaps you got little from it, as you like delving right to the depths it seems, but I'm happy to just find some direction. Ultimately, I know the big three in cannabis greenhouse lighting have already run these tests, and even if they are not sharing what their respective universities and greenhouse studies found, it is still clear what opinion they have formed, regarding the use of FR in the main lights. I was going to trust them, and hoped sharing their thoughts, while questioning the topic in general, might ease others into the comfort zone of truly professional lighting choices. Perhaps more papers will land soon, or I will stumble back upon the one's people have asked for. I don't really embrace this depth of conversation though, as I'm really just about practical application. So I can't move to surrounding topics, unless they to have a practical reason to of looked at them. Even then, they won't be bookmarked.

@Crooked8 is the Bugbee course as deep as some of these guys are going, or more focused on practical application, as I hope it is. I really don't feel the need to look at the mechanisms behind chlorophyll production, but do appreciate the need to fuel them. I'm unsure how deep to delve prior to the course, in order to keep up.

Quantum mechanics should about cover it

 

[CannaT]

What does it mean better @crooked ??

Ignorance of you all is hard.
Did you read what I wrote ???
Flavour of leds is more pronaunced yes more terps less water wapour more terps.
Very low lights stress barley to none CANT produce sulphure compounds under LEDS it cant be produced.
While HPS less terps more alchocols and sulphure compounds...different smell.
I smoked both Jacks and more flavourfull and powerfull was HPS grown.

Maybe you guys like cannabis that is small in sc and alchocols.
Both are great but HPS have much more aroma like sun grown.

And you have been growing under hps for years and you say that runs that have troubles with leds that have troubles are better than well dialed hps lights after 10 years...its just no sense.
Or you didnt grow something to perfection ever.
I even grow some cuttings at sun and i know what Im talking about about smells,and taste.

I wil post picture of Jack cutting that is below board and still grow in direction of HPS that say more to me than any "science led papers."

 

[Crooked8]

What does it mean better @crooked ??

Ignorance of you all is hard.
Did you read what I wrote ???
Flavour of leds is more pronaunced yes more terps less water wapour more terps.
Very low lights stress barley to none CANT produce sulphure compounds under LEDS it cant be produced.
While HPS less terps more alchocols and sulphure compounds...different smell.
I smoked both Jacks and more flavourfull and powerfull was HPS grown.

Maybe you guys like cannabis that is small in sc and alchocols.
Both are great but HPS have much more aroma like sun grown.

And you have been growing under hps for years and you say that runs that have troubles with leds that have troubles are better than well dialed hps lights after 10 years...its just no sense.
Or you didnt grow something to perfection ever.
I even grow some cuttings at sun and i know what Im talking about about smells,and taste.

I wil post picture of Jack cutting that is below board and still grow in direction of HPS that say more to me than any "science led papers."

Alrighty then .

 

[Normannen]

What does it mean better @crooked ??

Ignorance of you all is hard.
Did you read what I wrote ???
Flavour of leds is more pronaunced yes more terps less water wapour more terps.
Very low lights stress barley to none CANT produce sulphure compounds under LEDS it cant be produced.
While HPS less terps more alchocols and sulphure compounds...different smell.
I smoked both Jacks and more flavourfull and powerfull was HPS grown.

Maybe you guys like cannabis that is small in sc and alchocols.
Both are great but HPS have much more aroma like sun grown.

And you have been growing under hps for years and you say that runs that have troubles with leds that have troubles are better than well dialed hps lights after 10 years...its just no sense.
Or you didnt grow something to perfection ever.
I even grow some cuttings at sun and i know what Im talking about about smells,and taste.

I wil post picture of Jack cutting that is below board and still grow in direction of HPS that say more to me than any "science led papers."

Honestly tho, the Sun remains the best
the only reason why we had to resort to street lamps and remote controller diodes is because we can't do it outside,
LED recently offers more photon output than HPS with less electricity consumption and less heat...it's an easy equation to solve...
of course HID HPS and LED sucks, it will always suck because the plant has had millions of years to adapt to the Sun...
as close as HPS can be to Sun, it is never gonna be as good, for the matter CMH are better, but hey, not everyone is a professional grower who can cover set up expenses with a few harvests...

 

[CannaT]

Honestly tho, the Sun remains the best
the only reason why we had to resort to street lamps and remote controller diodes is because we can't do it outside,
LED recently offers more photon output than HPS with less electricity consumption and less heat...it's an easy equation to solve...
of course HID HPS and LED sucks, it will always suck because the plant has had millions of years to adapt to the Sun...
as close as HPS can be to Sun, it is never gonna be as good, for the matter CIM are better, but hey, not everyone is a professional grower who can cover set up expenses with a few harvests...

I dont say its better its different...its not scale what is more heavy they are different and after many grows I conclude that Leds lights just cant produce high SC and Alchocols like Sun and hids produce them.
Some people like that terps from led grown I like more Hid or Sun grown...cuz I like part that SC and Alchocols play in the high.
Even other plant species like garlic etc...produce less SC compunds when growed under leds.

I have also rooms with leds I dont care for commercial grow It look good,smell good it can be sale its ok.
But about quality I will always chose HPS cuz I like buds that it produce much more.

Why you feel atacked If I say that I like hid and sun grown better ? Its just my opinion why it bothers you?

I dont want to be rude @crooked but as comercial grower you care the most how fast it will sale and what it be on scale...quality in that kind of grows is 3d thing at best.

When I was growing hard it was illegal I stole electricty so I didnt care if it have more light for less electricty and other things you have in mind.
I walked that phats long time ago.

 

[Cerathule]

What's the sun spec? There's too many of these. Depending on time of day, calendar date, shade situation, altitude, latitude etc pp, so many possible differences.

 

[Normannen]

I dont say its better its different...its not scale what is more heavy they are different and after many grows I conclude that Leds lights just cant produce high SC and Alchocols like Sun and hids produce them.
Some people like that terps from led grown I like more Hid or Sun grown...cuz I like part that SC and Alchocols play in the high.
Even other plant species like garlic etc...produce less SC compunds when growed under leds.

I have also rooms with leds I dont care for commercial grow It look good,smell good it can be saled its ok.
But about quality I will always chose HPS cuz I like buds that it produce much more.

Why you feel atacked If I say that I like hid and sun grown better ? Its just my opinion why it bothers you?

not attacked, it's just that on a thread about improving bud quality under LED (given the financial constraint most of us live in, check your privilege bro) shitting on the thread talking about HID and HPS is not gonna garner the friendliest of comments. So, stop attacking the thread destructively and start offering constructive criticism, you'll see less "hate".

 

[Normannen]

What's the sun spec? There's too many of these. Depending on time of day, calendar date, shade situation, altitude, latitude etc pp, so many possible differences.

exactly, sit down, observe, take notes, choose a strtain that is likely to match those specs, same goes with LED HID and YMP.

 

[CannaT]

What's the sun spec? There's too many of these. Depending on time of day, calendar date, shade situation, altitude, latitude etc pp, so many possible differences.

1380w in general per M2 around 400IR and changable light spectrums and intensity during the day.

 

[CannaT]

not attacked, it's just that on a thread about improving bud quality under LED (given the financial constraint most of us live in, check your privilege bro) shitting on the thread talking about HID and HPS is not gonna garner the friendliest of comments. So, stop attacking the thread destructively and start offering constructive criticism, you'll see less "hate".

Ok I get the point.

 

[Normannen]

1380w in general per M2 around 400IR and changable light spectrums and intensity during the day.

but that is in Massachussets

Solar Radiation

www.whoi.edu

"Solar radiation is measured atop the meteorological mast at the shore laboratory using an Eppley Model PSP (Precision Spectral Pyranometer). Approximately 99% of solar, or short-wave, radiation at the earth's surface is contained in the region from 0.3 to 3.0 µm, which corresponds to wavelength between the ultraviolet and near infrared. Above the earth's atmosphere, solar radiation has an intensity of approximately 1380 watts per square meter (W/m2). This value is known as the Solar Constant. At our latitude, the value at the surface is approximately 1000 W/m2 on a clear day at solar noon in the summer months. The difference between this value and the Solar Constant is due to transmission loss to the atmosphere. The clear sky value is considerable less in the winter. Clouds can dramatically reduce this value by reflecting the solar radiation back out to space.

The PSP senses this radiation with a thermopile that produces a millivolt signal that is directly proportional to the downwelling solar irradiance. The PSP uses a glass dome that uniformly transits radiation between 0.285 and 2.8 µm. A calibration constant is applied to provide the total solar irradiance in watts per square meter."

EDIT: No it's not I can't even read my own posts

 

[Ca++]

Maybe it was observed due to not being in the vpd range with leds.

Lower RH will indeed stop leafs expanding. Controlling water loss is an issue for the plant. More blue grows smaller leaves for the same reason. Blue leads to more water loss. While blue and UV will also thicken them leaves up, highlighting avoidance.

When we see a squat rosetting plant (blue light) it sometimes has bigger leaves. This is likely due to the RH within the plants blanket of leaves, being higher than room RH suggests.


I would like to study stratospheric water loss. In basic terms, they put an RH sensor in a thimble. Then put the thimble on a leaf, like a cup over the sensor. Then we watch how quick that little circle of leaf, can raise the RH in the thimble.
This kit is getting close to looking like a stapler. It's over engineered for our pockets at the moment, but I can see they could be made cheaply.
For now, Brix talk is sorely missing from our discussions. When I arrive at a problem site, my first test is runoff. When Hurley arrives, he checks Brix. $15 meter.
Brix is a good indication of health. A plant hanging on under HID, would likely not want it's light changing for the better. While a plant with good sugar levels, is better prepared. It's not an exact science, but does point towards N:K ratios, and may illuminate that LED issue where the edges fail.

 

[Ca++]

What does it mean better @crooked ??

Ignorance of you all is hard.
Did you read what I wrote ???
Flavour of leds is more pronaunced yes more terps less water wapour more terps.
Very low lights stress barley to none CANT produce sulphure compounds under LEDS it cant be produced.
While HPS less terps more alchocols and sulphure compounds...different smell.
I smoked both Jacks and more flavourfull and powerfull was HPS grown.

Maybe you guys like cannabis that is small in sc and alchocols.
Both are great but HPS have much more aroma like sun grown.

And you have been growing under hps for years and you say that runs that have troubles with leds that have troubles are better than well dialed hps lights after 10 years...its just no sense.
Or you didnt grow something to perfection ever.
I even grow some cuttings at sun and i know what Im talking about about smells,and taste.

I wil post picture of Jack cutting that is below board and still grow in direction of HPS that say more to me than any "science led papers."

Sticking in a nice hot HID recently, I was surprised how quick that HID flavour returned. It had almost faded from memory, just how singularly focused, and pungent, HID bud could be. What got me to post though, was how the smell transformation was complete in about 48 hours. A time period that speaks more of chemical conversion, than creation from the ground up. It seems obvious that the LED had produced the precursors for the HID to work upon. I just don't think the sulphur compounds could of joined the show in hours. It's nothing more than observations and considerations that lack all the facts. It was a striking transformation though. You could grow LED to the end, then very briefly get the HID out. If happy with the results, then try a heat lamp instead. Incandescents didn't do this for me, but I didn't try baking with them.
Obviously the plant has to be alive for this to happen(we can't do it to bagged weed), so the conversions location can be narrowed down a bit. I do also use mag-sulphate, so there could of been a reservoir of the stuff available. It drank a bucket load of water in that time. I guess I just don't know, but it was a quick change. Leaving me with some bud that takes me back a few years.

 

[Crooked8]

I dont say its better its different...its not scale what is more heavy they are different and after many grows I conclude that Leds lights just cant produce high SC and Alchocols like Sun and hids produce them.
Some people like that terps from led grown I like more Hid or Sun grown...cuz I like part that SC and Alchocols play in the high.
Even other plant species like garlic etc...produce less SC compunds when growed under leds.

I have also rooms with leds I dont care for commercial grow It look good,smell good it can be sale its ok.
But about quality I will always chose HPS cuz I like buds that it produce much more.

Why you feel atacked If I say that I like hid and sun grown better ? Its just my opinion why it bothers you?

I dont want to be rude @crooked but as comercial grower you care the most how fast it will sale and what it be on scale...quality in that kind of grows is 3d thing at best.

When I was growing hard it was illegal I stole electricty so I didnt care if it have more light for less electricty and other things you have in mind.
I walked that phats long time ago.

Quality is our number one priority. At our own peril. We are constantly testing and running new genetics from seed. Constantly tossing and starting new genetics. I have been after top quality from the start. I have 10+ years of media you can see from how i started on here alone. Running Hps and now led in BOTH commercial and personal format. Id rather have 20 lbs per run of top quality vs 30 of just good quality. It is priority one my friend!

 

[CannaT]

Quality is our number one priority. At our own peril. We are constantly testing and running new genetics from seed. Constantly tossing and starting new genetics. I have been after top quality from the start. I have 10+ years of media you can see from how i started on here alone. Running Hps and now led in BOTH commercial and personal format. Id rather have 20 lbs per run of top quality vs 30 of just good quality. It is priority one my friend!



View attachment 18912272 View attachment 18912273

After those pictures its time to eat my own shit.

 

[Charles Dankens]

One of the mods here on IC turned me on to Golden Goat. I grew it a couple years ago. It came out real nice. When I bought a new batch of beans I had miserable germ rate. I wrote Rasta Jeff and he set things right.

This plant is the one out of six that flourished.

I chopped this GG yesterday. I didn't keep track of flowering time but this was a quick bloomer.