Latest on PPK method?

[MPL]

I did lots of research on passive plant killer and found a bunch of really old threads without pics for context. I sent delta9 a msg and he said a lot has changed since those threads and the best thing to do would be to ask about the technique in a new thread.

Sooo here I am. I'm looking to change things up a bit since I've been growing the same way for years and ppk looked like it might be a good fit. I am considering going from F&D tables to E&F buckets for the extra vertical space, and because I can put a bigger reservoir anywhere in my room. ppk doesn't seem too different from that.

Goals expected from changing how I grow? Well, first I just want to try something different. Growing can be monotonous once everything is dialed in. I'd also like to increase my yield and quality. Currently I average about 2.25gpw depending on strain and I'd like to get up to 2.5gpw. I do this with high-ish numbers of labor intensive, defoliated plants and in addition to increasing yield I want to decrease labor. I may have a lot more plants to look after soon.

My room is 24'x10'x8' (LxWxH), sealed, with 2x 1kw Gavita DE lamps in AC/DE hoods. I obviously have an AC, C02, support equipment etc. to maintain the environment. I use Peter's 5-11-26 (Jack's Pro Hydro basically), CalNit, Mg, H202. Currently trying to sort some minor nute/water issues but otherwise that's been solid for me for a long time.

What exactly is PPK and how does one design a growroom around it? What are the principles and how are they implemented?

Thanks for any help, it is most appreciated!

 

[Mr Blah]

I got my thread started with PPK. Starting with 3.5 gal buckets.
We will see how it pans out.

 

[delta9nxs]

so you're doing sog? with the ac/de fixtures and an 8' ceiling plus a minimum 30" workplane over your plants you are limited to about 4.5' from the floor to top of your canopy.

how big is/are your table(s)? how tall are your plants at finish usually?

 

[whiteweedo]

Thx for the thread MPL.
Would like to read the latest updates on ppk as well.

 

[MPL]

16 plants per light, not too crazy. I haven't had issues letting the plants get up to about 24" from the lights. I figure I should have an even 5' from plants to lights if I get rid of my table. I plan on staying with 16 plants and letting them finish at about 4' tall.

I'm on 4'x4' tables but want to get rid of them and go 5'x10' or more for my 2 lights. I can keep my plant numbers the same and give them more room to grow, which means less trimming work.

Ultimately I can do whatever I want with my grow area. I can modify/build it to suit the ppk method should I decide to give it a run.

so you're doing sog? with the ac/de fixtures and an 8' ceiling plus a minimum 30" workplane over your plants you are limited to about 4.5' from the floor to top of your canopy.

how big is/are your table(s)? how tall are your plants at finish usually?

 

[Billy Liar]

Agreed a tutorial with pics of a PPK build using everything that's been learned to date would be awesome... The how and why's of each step is as important as the build to me.

I'm interested in scaling the system up or down.. also being in Europe knowing the how's and why's give me the freedom to improvise with what's available...

Peace
BL

Peace
BL

 

[delta9nxs]

i just bought a bunch of those ac/de fixtures myself and can't wait to try them on some large plants that are also side lit.

i'm sure you have seen sunlight supply's layout tool on their website. it shows good coverage on a 6x6' grid using their recommended 30" workplane. you will get approx 1150 umols in the center of the grid at that range. but if you want to run them closer at 24" at times it would probably get you near the ideal 1500 umols at that range in the center but better overall coverage on maybe a 5x5 grid.

you are getting excellent yields already with something close to that so maybe you don't want to stray too far from that concept.

i ran a large plant sog once with 72 plants in a 102"x52" plastic lined tray on the floor. it was a lot of work but yielded well. that was pre ppk in hand watered pots.

i don't know much about tray sizes but if you can get a 5x10 or two 5x5's it would not be too difficult to hook up a ppk system on them.

what medium do you prefer?

do you use the bed technique or individual containers?

a good depth is 5-7".

essentially a ppk is top watered with an intermittent pulse instead of a continuous drip but also both sub-irrigated and drained by a continuous hydraulic connection to the reservoir below it.

this draining eliminates the perched water table from the grow container immediately after a top watering event and moves it down into the drain tube thereby greatly reducing it's size and therefore it's effect.

the sub-irrigation back feeds via capillary rise between watering events keeping the parameters closer and provides redundancy in the event of a power failure.

this, in turn, allows you to top water much more frequently than a hand watered pot, increasing the gas exchange rate tremendously.

refreshing the air, water, nutrient, and root interface and keeping it within a more ideal band for a greater length of time during the course of a grow.

there is an air gap between the growing container and the water level in the reservoir below maintained by a float valve. using the float valve settings you can manipulate the water level as a tool to control moisture content in the medium.

the top watering set up is intermittent and a cycle timer is used to control both the duration of the event and the interval between events giving even more control over moisture content.

using all three of these tools it is possible to precisely dial in moisture content in the root zone and maintain it within a narrow band.

the float valve is fed from an elevated tank in which you also mix nutrients. it is continuously topping the plant reservoir or reservoirs and refreshing nutrients.

there is more but these are the main design points.

 

[McKush]

added this post to the PPK link-o-rama

2.25gpw is already outstanding bro, you will have a bit of a learning curve and your gpw may suffer as you work out the kinks of introducing a completely new system to your room. but most likely not a big leap for you and you say you are looking for a change so you have the right attitude to try it.

i use PPK because it fits my needs and situation; individual MMJ, *few* plants but big, high quality smoke. maximizing gpw is a result for me but not necessarily my goals.
i've never really run SOG so i can't offer a comparison.

 

[cyat]

Over 4 pounds per 1k?
That's beyond amazing..
You might already be the best grower in the world

 

[marrdogg]

Don't do ppk but I do run ac/de hoods I get best results when ran at least 3 feet above canopy. I have numerous de setups but the ac/de hoods are by far superior. Their light imprint is impressive you get spread and focus in one reflector. I run 4 of those over 2 4×8 trays and couldn't be any happier.
PEACE!

 

[McKush]

Over 4 pounds per 1k?
That's beyond amazing..
You might already be the best grower in the world

I think its readily achievable to do 4lbs in indoor PPK with a single 1K DE in a well designed room for the fixture. No CO2 but good air treatment. Right cultivars with good veg.

Check out D9 and Av8or's work.

i dont doubt the OPs statements. At least If he isnt doing it now he can with PPK in said conditions above.

Well designed room for the fixture to me (Gavita 1000e) is 10' height minimum but not every one can get that kinda height so ya gotta grow in what you got.

 

[MPL]

These hoods are awesome. You're really gonna like em.

I haven't seen the layout tool on their website. I bought these right when they came out and I don't remember that they had anything like a layout tool then. I'll definitely have to check it out.

The plants can get to about 24" but they look happier under ~30", just like you said. I'll use that as my limit when designing my new setup. Gonna stay with a 5x10 or 5x11 area with the two lights, and 32 plants. Based on my own experience and what you said that's a good size for this light.

Up until this run, yes my yields have been excellent. I recently had a surprise problem show up in my plants this run and I suspect yield is already cut by 25% and I haven't figured it out yet. Gahhhh. Anyway, done stressing about that for the moment. Sorry for the tangent, back to ppk.

Hand-watered 72 plants? You got more ballz than I do sir! Hell to the no. I tried 64 in a 4x8 table once and wanted to shoot myself. lol

I'm currently using Growstone GS-1s as my medium. I hated them at first but they've really grown on me. I'd prefer as little medium as possible - I hate cleaning the shit. I saw you recommend something called turface? Sounds like some kind of insult haha

I use individual containers so I can arrange my canopy evenly. Currently in ~1g pots with about 3/4g medium.

I like the description of how it works. Thanks! Do you have pictures with some detail concerning the set up? I'm willing to, but would hate to, reinvent the wheel here.

So how often do you "pulse" your topfeed? What about algae build-up on the top of the media? I'm currently flooding every 45 minutes for 5 minutes, but I am always up for anything that allows me to flood more often. In my experience, with the right medium and setup more floods = more buds.

What size feed and return lines do you run? I'm guessing 3/4" - 1" per pot to get a fast enough fill rate? How is the lower flood table plumbed? Is it similar to an E&F controller?

What RH level do you shoot for in the rootzone? Do you measure this or do it intuitively? I myself love my meters and tools because if I only had my wits to rely on my growing abilities would be quite meager I suspect. lol

How much media do you use per plant? What size plants do you usually run in these system? I saw some old pics of yours where you had some gorgeous trees - is this method better suited to fewer, larger plants? In the pics it looked like you did little to no trimming yet still maintained 2.0gpw yields? That's gotta be due to the side lighting, am I correct? I have some ideas for an arcing light hanger that would accomplish a similar effect, but have yet to build a prototype. Might try to do that this winter.

So do you essentially mix one reservoir worth of solution and just add back to it from there on out?

Thanks for your expertise and time!

i just bought a bunch of those ac/de fixtures myself and can't wait to try them on some large plants that are also side lit.

i'm sure you have seen sunlight supply's layout tool on their website. it shows good coverage on a 6x6' grid using their recommended 30" workplane. you will get approx 1150 umols in the center of the grid at that range. but if you want to run them closer at 24" at times it would probably get you near the ideal 1500 umols at that range in the center but better overall coverage on maybe a 5x5 grid.

you are getting excellent yields already with something close to that so maybe you don't want to stray too far from that concept.

i ran a large plant sog once with 72 plants in a 102"x52" plastic lined tray on the floor. it was a lot of work but yielded well. that was pre ppk in hand watered pots.

i don't know much about tray sizes but if you can get a 5x10 or two 5x5's it would not be too difficult to hook up a ppk system on them.

what medium do you prefer?

do you use the bed technique or individual containers?

a good depth is 5-7".

essentially a ppk is top watered with an intermittent pulse instead of a continuous drip but also both sub-irrigated and drained by a continuous hydraulic connection to the reservoir below it.

this draining eliminates the perched water table from the grow container immediately after a top watering event and moves it down into the drain tube thereby greatly reducing it's size and therefore it's effect.

the sub-irrigation back feeds via capillary rise between watering events keeping the parameters closer and provides redundancy in the event of a power failure.

this, in turn, allows you to top water much more frequently than a hand watered pot, increasing the gas exchange rate tremendously.

refreshing the air, water, nutrient, and root interface and keeping it within a more ideal band for a greater length of time during the course of a grow.

there is an air gap between the growing container and the water level in the reservoir below maintained by a float valve. using the float valve settings you can manipulate the water level as a tool to control moisture content in the medium.

the top watering set up is intermittent and a cycle timer is used to control both the duration of the event and the interval between events giving even more control over moisture content.

using all three of these tools it is possible to precisely dial in moisture content in the root zone and maintain it within a narrow band.

the float valve is fed from an elevated tank in which you also mix nutrients. it is continuously topping the plant reservoir or reservoirs and refreshing nutrients.

there is more but these are the main design points.

 

[MPL]

I'm pretty tired of the number of plants and amount of trimming work it takes to keep them defoliated properly. I've been getting lazier about it and that's a big part of why I'm looking for a new method. I'd be more than happy to give up some yield in order to gain more free time.

What size plants do you grow? I have never grown anything taller than about 3.5'. I imagine with bigger plants you must need lots of stakes. I usually need 1 per cola, and I top to 4 main colas per plant. That gives me 64 main colas per table and that's a lot of work to keep defoliated. Side lighting is probably a much better way to get the same effect, or probably better.

added this post to the PPK link-o-rama

2.25gpw is already outstanding bro, you will have a bit of a learning curve and your gpw may suffer as you work out the kinks of introducing a completely new system to your room. but most likely not a big leap for you and you say you are looking for a change so you have the right attitude to try it.

i use PPK because it fits my needs and situation; individual MMJ, *few* plants but big, high quality smoke. maximizing gpw is a result for me but not necessarily my goals.
i've never really run SOG so i can't offer a comparison.

 

[MPL]

Hardly. There are some guys in Denver doing 2.5 and better with the right strains. I know, I've seen and trimmed their harvests. Just wish they'd let me visit their grows, but I don't have the right badge and access so I can't go in...

My best yields have been from a cut of Jack Herer I got from Cali when I lived there. With that strain I would average between 2.0gpw and 2.3 or so gpw depending on how lazy I was about defoliating.

I like to think, over the last 7 years, not counting my first few runs, I've averaged 2.25gpw. Might be a bit higher or lower, but 8# harvests from two lights isn't uncommon. 64 colas of solid bud 2'+ tall each will get that for ya, not counting the side shoots etc. (which you also have to fucking defoliate grrr).

My favorite strain to date, however, was a cut of DJ Short's Blueberry, acquired from a friend who got it when the DJ visited CA back in like 2005 or whenever it was. With that I was lucky to get 1.75gpw. It was dank though. My cat at the mom though.

Over 4 pounds per 1k?
That's beyond amazing..
You might already be the best grower in the world

 

[MPL]

Do you F&D with those trays? What kinda count do you run?

I think there is truth to the distance. As my plants get closer and closer to ~30" from the light I notice the tops start having difficult transpiring properly. Some light cupping etc.

Don't do ppk but I do run ac/de hoods I get best results when ran at least 3 feet above canopy. I have numerous de setups but the ac/de hoods are by far superior. Their light imprint is impressive you get spread and focus in one reflector. I run 4 of those over 2 4×8 trays and couldn't be any happier.
PEACE!

 

[MPL]

Right cultivars is key and the single most important factor ime, but you gotta have C02. At ~80F and 1000ppm C02 I get ~10%-15% bump in yield and quality is significantly improved over 75F and 400ppm C02 (my non C02 grow conditions). I don't think getting much above 2.0gpw without C02 supplementation is possible with the grow methods I'm familiar with. Perhaps some crazy vertical set up could do it?

I wish we could run these DE lamps vertically. You'd easily have a canopy of 250sq.ft (6' tall x 4' radius)! If you can get 2.0gpw with 25' of canopy...

I agree with 10'. I used to run with 9' ceilings and thought going to 8' would be easy. Well, it's doable in 8' but I'm moving a ton of air through the room and you can tell the leaf temps are quite a bit higher than the air temps. I need an IR thermometer so I can better deal with my vpd...

I think its readily achievable to do 4lbs in indoor PPK with a single 1K DE in a well designed room for the fixture. No CO2 but good air treatment. Right cultivars with good veg.

Check out D9 and Av8or's work.

i dont doubt the OPs statements. At least If he isnt doing it now he can with PPK in said conditions above.

Well designed room for the fixture to me (Gavita 1000e) is 10' height minimum but not every one can get that kinda height so ya gotta grow in what you got.

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, good morning! i just woke up and saw the novella you wrote so it will take me some time to digest it all. i've got to go grow some weed right now so i'll try to answer some of this later today.

but in the meantime, what is your current veg time and do you do it in the same space you flower?

 

[MPL]

Haha sorry!

Veg time, 2-5 weeks depending on strain. Building a separate veg area but for the short term I veg in the same area I flower.

hey, good morning! i just woke up and saw the novella you wrote so it will take me some time to digest it all. i've got to go grow some weed right now so i'll try to answer some of this later today.

but in the meantime, what is your current veg time and do you do it in the same space you flower?

 

[cyat]

Hats off mpl.. World champion skills.. Never met anyone in your league

 

[Billy Liar]

The only unknown in my mind now is the requirements the medium has to meet for its hydraulic properties, cec etc.. what know/common substrates work well? Crushed hydroton, DE, Growstone, perlite??

Peace
BL