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Latest on PPK method?

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
The only unknown in my mind now is the requirements the medium has to meet for its hydraulic properties, cec etc.. what know/common substrates work well? Crushed hydroton, DE, Growstone, perlite??

Peace
BL

since both you and mpl have asked media questions i'll tackle that question first.

there are two techniques for watering.

one is the full flood. this is fully flooding the plant container and then fully draining it. similar to e&f but flooding from the top and draining from the bottom. it achieves a 100% gas displacement. it is techncally harder to do as it requires a larger pump and a larger reservoir and bigger plumbing so that you can deliver the solution in a very short period of time in sufficient volume to overwhelm the drain capability.

it also requires a medium that won't float such as turface or pumice stone. i think fine lava rock could be used also. i don't know if the growstones float or not.

the main advantage of this method is that it takes the guesswork and trial and error out of the equation. full is full. you can see it.

the second technique is a frequent but intermittent pulse of sufficient volume and frequency to keep the medium wet but not saturated.

this is much easier to do technically and grows the same size plants but you must work and think a little more about the requirements of your choice of medium.

pure perlite has to be irrigated about every 15-20 minutes. turface once per hour or so. pure coco once per 3 hours and so on.

with my 50/50 coco/perlite mix i'm finding 1.5-2 hours to be about right.

with this device we are watering the medium not the plant. trying to keep it in that ideal band.

i have used perlite, coco, turface, which is a calcined (kiln fired) clay like hydroton but vastly superior as it won't float and has much greater water retention and release. it will hold it's own weight in water, also i have used rice hulls but really they function exactly like perlite. pumice stone, which is real good stuff but may not be readily available in your area. i have used diatomaceous earth in the form of auto parts stores oil spill clean up stuff. if you can get the right grade it works good. i liked the napa auto parts product #8822.

we have at least one grower here using straight hydroton with the pulse method.

i have used combinations of almost everything listed in various percentages.

i am currently using a 50/50 coco/perlite mixture for several reasons. as we have scaled up we found turface, de, and pumice to be labor intensive to prepare. it's all good stuff for smaller grows if you only have to clean small amounts but with larger, multiple room grows with lots of large plants we would just about have to hire a full time employee to do nothing but clean it.

also not all of these materials are available everywhere. they can be hard to source.

but coco and perlite are ubiquitous. and very easy to prep. the coco is ready to go right out of the bag if you use a high grade loose fill type, like atami or roots organic's coco palm. the only thing we do to it is give it a 1 hour soak in an ec 3-4 calcium nitrate bath to satisfy the cec.

perlite is easily cleaned by just floating it in a large tub, stirring with a boat paddle for 15 minutes and skimming the good stuff off the top after the fines sink.

perlite has no cec but coco is about 70 meq/l. turface 30-40. pumice slightly less than that. de probably a little greater than turface.

all of these choices have some capillary rise capability and you want at least 6" in this device. coco has the greatest again followed by turface and de and then pumice followed by perlite. pure hydroton has very little and, while it works well in the drain i feel you are gambling if the power goes out. large plants can dry out fast and the ability to sub-irrigate can save your crop.

also i think a good capillary rise capability grows a bigger plant by guaranteeing the availability of water and nutrients 24/7.
 

McKush

Éirinn go Brách
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I'm pretty tired of the number of plants and amount of trimming work it takes to keep them defoliated properly. I've been getting lazier about it and that's a big part of why I'm looking for a new method. I'd be more than happy to give up some yield in order to gain more free time.

What size plants do you grow? I have never grown anything taller than about 3.5'. I imagine with bigger plants you must need lots of stakes. I usually need 1 per cola, and I top to 4 main colas per plant. That gives me 64 main colas per table and that's a lot of work to keep defoliated. Side lighting is probably a much better way to get the same effect, or probably better.

right now i've got a 2x mango haze that I let get really big for a number of reasons. they started in a group of others and i kept them vegging while i flowered the first ones out. 4 flower sites only.

soooo they are both 8-9' plants right now, however this is a result of circumstances and not how i normally grow. These two have not exactly had model lives either so i'm not touting the big one (at least) as the way to grow, it isn't ;)

Thats not how i typically grow them tho. I veg to 25-30" then flip. what i try to do is form a U around the light fixture with the plant using a combination of a 3" screen over the top and let the sides grow up my walls on 3" latice to get as much canopy space as possible. so its a bit of horizontal screen and vertical trellis combined. this suits my small room & area. my walls are 1.5" laminated 3/4 plywood so I can affix trellis to the walls with screws easily.

check out my thread, i have a picture or two there and you'll see that i'm a relatively newbie at this too so feel free to use or ignore whatever i say or do.

Also i'm individual MMJ so not focused at all on bud presentation for others, so we probably have different goals from the outset.
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
Right cultivars is key and the single most important factor ime, but you gotta have C02. At ~80F and 1000ppm C02 I get ~10%-15% bump in yield and quality is significantly improved over 75F and 400ppm C02 (my non C02 grow conditions). I don't think getting much above 2.0gpw without C02 supplementation is possible with the grow methods I'm familiar with. Perhaps some crazy vertical set up could do it?

I wish we could run these DE lamps vertically. You'd easily have a canopy of 250sq.ft (6' tall x 4' radius)! If you can get 2.0gpw with 25' of canopy...

I agree with 10'. I used to run with 9' ceilings and thought going to 8' would be easy. Well, it's doable in 8' but I'm moving a ton of air through the room and you can tell the leaf temps are quite a bit higher than the air temps. I need an IR thermometer so I can better deal with my vpd...

actually, you can run the de's vertically. you just can't turn the bulb vertical. but you can turn the fixture around the horizontal axis of the bulb, keeping the bulb level. won't hurt a thing.

you could run a 5x10 scrog with fewer plants. like maybe 8 to cut down on veg time. letting each plant occupy a 2.5' square portion of the screen.

you would only have to veg to approx 1.5' square before the flip, depending on strain, and the stretch would fill in the rest.

the 2 lights could be mounted at the extreme ends instead of centered over each 5x5 area.

the lights could be angled so that the ends are getting good light from each lamp but the patterns would overlap as they started approaching the center.

using a light meter this could be done precisely.

using low containers this would gain significant headroom for the plants.

i hope this makes sense.
 

Billy Liar

Member
Does the fitting for the tailpipe have to sit flush in the bottom of the top bucket/pan? Or will a bulkhead type fitting work with the thread and back nut protruding upwards into the top bucket, which will obviously hold some water from each flood?

I can draw a picture to explain better if needed?

Peace
BL
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
Does the fitting for the tailpipe have to sit flush in the bottom of the top bucket/pan? Or will a bulkhead type fitting work with the thread and back nut protruding upwards into the top bucket, which will obviously hold some water from each flood?

I can draw a picture to explain better if needed?

Peace
BL

i know what you're talking about. the medium will function as a capillary siphon and will pull most of the water up and over the lip or edge of the protruding entrance to the tailpiece.

unless it is too high. but under 3-4 mm possibly up to 6mm or so should still work ok.

you are still better off finding something that is nearly flush.

i don't know what's available on your side of the pond but we are using these:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Oatey-1-...MERCH=RV-_-rv_nav_plp_rr-_-NA-_-205154040-_-N

this is good for smaller containers like maybe up to about 3 gals. it has a lip to hold it in place from the top and you put a piece of fiberglass window screen on the bottom held in place with a zip tie and a dab of glue.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/RectorSe...V-Inside-Fit-Cleanout-Adapter-97482/100141128

these, without the threaded plug you see in the photo, are good for larger containers. this 3" one is what we use for the 7 gal feed dishes that we are growing huge plants in.

this piece can be used for the bottom to hold the screen in but right now we are just using them for the tops.

it goes through a precision 3" hole from the top and a piece of 3" ID pvc pipe 7" long is either glued ot screwed to it using stainless screws as set screws.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Sioux-Chief-3-in-Snap-in-Drain-845-3PPK/202313209

this piece can be used for the bottom of the 3" pvc pipe piece as is with the grating intact if you are packing the drain/tailpiece with chunky perlite.

it can also be used for the top if you drill or cut out the grating.

later


p.s. if your choice of fitting does protrude up into the grow container you can test it with your choice of medium before you commit a plant to it.

install the fitting with the tailpiece attached and fill the tailpiece with your choice of medium. then take a pvc tube and place it vertically anywhere in the grow container so that one end is flush on the bottom.

fill the rest of the grow container with your medium and water it until the drain begins to function. stop watering and look inside the vertical pvc pipe at the floor of the grow container and you can see if the siphon action is working correctly. if it is you will see no standing water on the floor of the grow container at the end of the draining process.
 

Billy Liar

Member
I was thinking of these initially as I have lots:
threaded-tank-connector-40mm-diameter-15-inch.png


But they will sit too proud I think!

So I've found these available in 40mm (1½") and 83mm (3"):

flanged-tank-and-liner-connector-40mm-diameter-15inch-500x480.jpg


Most other items should exist in my garage..

Peace
BL
 

McKush

Éirinn go Brách
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I use toilet flange technology

038753435039lg.jpg



Works great in my system. 2-3 USD a piece however
 
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Billy Liar

Member
Has anyone run this ppk method with regular hydro hobby nutrients? Or just jacks?

Jacks formula lends itself to recirculating systems quite well from my calcs. Not trying to take anything away from the system just trying to establish if the jacks formula is a big part of the success of the system..

Peace
BL
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
Has anyone run this ppk method with regular hydro hobby nutrients? Or just jacks?

Jacks formula lends itself to recirculating systems quite well from my calcs. Not trying to take anything away from the system just trying to establish if the jacks formula is a big part of the success of the system..

Peace
BL

i have run it with botanicare, ionic, gh 3 part, gh maxibloom and several other brands of dry 2 part ferts as well as jack's.

total gro, haifa chemicals, peters and some others i can't remember right now.

i like jack's the best because of the incredible long term solution stability.

plus it is cheap and i'm a cheap bastard!
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
i think the biggest reason it is so reliable is that it derives the plants oxygen from the air and not the water.

water as a o2 delivery method is inherently limited.

i did the math one time and the difference between even the most aerated water at the right temperature and regular old hot air is still incredible.

two containers the same size. one filled with water at 68f at sea level and heavily aerated will only hold about 9 ppm o2. another container of 86f air.

the one with air in it will have 23,300 TIMES the free o2 molecules.

and my own opinion is that the removal of the perched water table immediately after each watering event stops some sort of hormonal feedback that limits the aerial portions of the plant.

we are not turbo charging or "blowing up" the plant. we are merely removing obstacles to growth.

i have done nutrient film, dwc, rdwc, flood and drain, hand watered soilless, drip soilless, and bio-buckets. i have grown some decent plants in all of these techniques.

looking at a 9 week flowering period using 12/12 lighting you only have 756 hours to get the job done.

i think the ppk keeps the root zone parameters in a more ideal band for a longer period of time during the course of a grow than any of these other techniques.

oxygen, nutrients, and water with mass availability at all times.

and with no chillers and no root rot.

everyone knows you can't do hydro outdoors! yet we have people here running the ppk outdoors in the hot sun with no chillers growing monstrous plants in rather small containers.

the largest outdoor ppk container i've heard of so far is 27 gals. contrast that to the several hundred gallon containers used by most outdoor growers here.
 

Billy Liar

Member
I'm researching oxygen absorption by roots...

We know Dissolved Oxygen is one of the single most important factors in hydroponics.
We know how gas exchange in a nutrient solution occurs and the governing factors surrounding it.
We know DO is absorbed faster than any other nutrient ions and it's relatively low presence of ~9mg/L@19°c@sea level with low salinity.
So now I need to read a convincing study comparing oxygen uptake by gaseous diffusion to uptake by active removal from a solution.

I'll be a few days no doubt... ;)


On the nutrient topic, the jacks recipe is rather low in K compared to most generative nutrient formulas. Its make up is more in tune with a refill solution which is giving the solution longevity and stability IMO. It may not be the key to the success of your system but a useful tool that suits it well.

I mix nutrients myself and am experimenting with refill solutions as opposed to nutrient change outs in recirculating systems. A couple of small stand alone ppk's would work well for my experiments.

Peace
BL
 
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delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
I'm researching oxygen absorption by roots...

We know Dissolved Oxygen is one of the single most important factors in hydroponics.
We know how gas exchange in a nutrient solution occurs and the governing factors surrounding it.
We know DO is absorbed faster than any other nutrient ions and it's relatively low presence of ~9mg/L@19°c@sea level with low salinity.
So now I need to read a convincing study comparing oxygen uptake by gaseous diffusion to uptake by active removal from a solution.

I'll be a few days no doubt... ;)


On the nutrient topic, the jacks recipe is rather low in K compared to most generative nutrient formulas. Its make up is more in tune with a refill solution which is giving the solution longevity and stability IMO. It may not be the key to the success of your system but a useful tool that suits it well.

I mix nutrients myself and am experimenting with refill solutions as opposed to nutrient change outs in recirculating systems. A couple of small stand alone ppk's would work well for my experiments.

Peace
BL

i used to read novels and science fiction for fun and entertainment, now my idea of a good time is an evening reading research papers.

jack's mixed as instructed by the manufacturer is approx 3-1-4. very close to AN's ratio.
 

Billy Liar

Member
i used to read novels and science fiction for fun and entertainment, now my idea of a good time is an evening reading research papers.

jack's mixed as instructed by the manufacturer is approx 3-1-4. very close to AN's ratio.

I spend most of my time in research docs too lol...

The composition of jacks on its own is what I refer to as more like a refill recipe when compared to a lot of what I see in the European generative formulas.

Kristalon brown is 3-11-38 (3-5-32)
Kristalon Orange is 6-12-36 (6-6-30)
Jacks is 5-12-26 (5-6-22)
My flower refill is (4-1.5-20)

My findings suggest the lower K can increase the life of the solution between change outs. Although, my experiment is still in the early stages and also balances all elements not just the big three. Higher levels of Mn match the rapid depletion from the solution and provide a harsh environment for pythium. I'm two weeks into a cycle with no water changes at all and the plants look great! I've never used less water or fertilisers.

Rambles aside.. I intend to have a well founded hypothesis of the delivery/uptake mechanics of both nutrient ions and oxygen in this system before I plant in one.

Peace
BL
 

Snook

Still Learning
Positive or negative blood type

Positive or negative blood type

brothers, is it true that the only difference between a human blood cell and a plant cell (??? whats it called?) is its' nucleus. One of ???N, the other ??? Mag. Anyway one is this, the other that ??? don't remember zactly.. Please shoot me if I'm wrong and correct me if i'm right. Or was it one of those 'vivid dreams'?


EDIT: Sorry MPL... I thought I was starting a new thread...
 

DelTaco

Member
First I want to say thank you to D9 for what seems to be like the best hydro system out there to date. Thank you for the willingness to share your hard work and knowledge but also thanks for your time in coming back here repeatedly to these forums to answer questions and to help others. It looks like this PPK thing is going to save me a lot of time, money and most importantly stress from the UC RDWC system I was leaning towards building

Also, I want to thank the OP for starting this thread, very well put together and a good starting reference for beginners. Although I read most of the other PPK threads before I found this one I have to say it was hard putting all of the bits and pieces of information together in my head from the other threads. Your thread will definitely be a big help to those who start here first.

I used to grow back in the day with a hydro system I built out of 2 liter soda bottles and sprinkler nozzles. I got it out of a book called "Pot for Pennies" and it actually worked very well for me. While I am not a complete noob that was 15 years ago and now I have a freshly constructed 9x19x9 room and I want to give this PPK grow method a shot but I have some questions.

I have read all of the most recent PPK threads and I am currently working my way through one of the big threads as we speak. I think I have a pretty good understanding of how it works and how I need to build my system but right now I have a couple questions that I can't pin down answers for.

1. I already bought 5 bags of turface MVP and some wire mesh that has 1/8 holes. If I screen the turface with this will it give me too big of a particle size? Will it negatively affect the capillary rise action?

2. I am a cheap ass so my plan is to use 3 gallon square buckets on top of each other. I think a 2" tail piece would probably be better BUT all I can find locally are parts to make 3" tail pieces. Will this be ok or will it drain too fast even with the limiting plug?

Lastly, this is a lighting question but maybe some of you more experienced growers can give me a little insight....because I only have enough materials to make a 4 plant system I need to make decision on how to lay out my space. I have a 1k gavita knock off and I also have an old lightrail 3.5 from when I used to grow. My question is...

3. Do I spread my 4 plants out in a straight line across my 9' room and use my light mover or do I put the plants 2x2 and just hang the light above them stationary?
 

C.O.B.

Member
Finally learned how to use the search function. PPK Euphoria!!!! Whew, where have you been? Now I'll sit in my Lazy-boy and continue to do what i've done here for year b4 joining. READ!

Peace.
 

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