Landraces . Will we ever smoke what we once had? If no is there a Way back?

[festerous]

Mother nature created the wolf.
Which is the greatest canis expression.

Men of purpose created the Great Pyrenees and other noble breeds.
Which would be closest to what many consider to be a "landrace".

Money grubber's created the labradoodle and the Chi Poo.
Which is what many of us are smoking, in this day and age.

 

[ahortator]

Money grubber's created the labradoodle and the Chi Poo.
Which is what many of us are smoking, in this day and age.

You hit the nail on the head!

The saddest thing is that people seem happy smoking that crap.

 

[Sunshineinabag]

At one point years ago I wanted to steer towards sativa's and equatorial based cultivar.....ace I didn't know about.......and snowhigh wanted like 200.00 a pack for me as a beg I was like wow....these must be rich man's plants

 

[Sunshineinabag]

Just wanted to point out to OP that a tree shape does not represent a pedigree. A pedigree is perfectly symmetrical with each individual having two parents. It maintains this perfect symmetry all the way back to the introduction of sex. A perfectly symmetrical tree would have one trunk, two branches at the first tier, four at the next and so on. An actual drawing of a tree can be used to represent a family tree, but a family tree is the exact opposite of a pedigree in one very important way; the flow of time. A family tree starts with an individual and goes forward in time, while the pedigree starts with the same individual and goes backwards. Going forward, some people have 1 child, others in the family have 7 and some have none (that branch ends there). Going backwards, every single individual has two surviving parents all...the...way....back...pretty amazing actually.

Don't even get me going on co-dominant trees.

 

[Elmer Bud]

Cannabis is a Heterozygous Dioecious Obligate Outcrosser meaning if you self a cannabis plant it will within a few generations be so inbred that it will lose all vigor and have all kinds of troubles like not producing pollen or the pollen will be functionally sterile.
Cannabis suffers from inbreeding depression when selfed, we found that after 3-5 generations the cannabis plants were all but impossible to work with as a parent to produce viable seeds.
We used STS to self a single plant line repeatedly in our search to make single cannabinoid varieties, we did this with many lines and they all suffered loss of vigor and inbred depression.

-SamS

G `day Sam

The plants you used , were they very inbred to start with ?
The reason I ask is I know folks who have selfed for more than 3 generations and they tell me they have no problem producing pollen on their reversed lines .
How about the OG Kushes that come from S1s of S1s ?

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[CaptainDankness]

Landraces require 2000 plant open pollinated reproductions, 1,000 females and 1,000 males all from seeds. That is a minimum to preserve genes in a landrace.
No one in the West is doing this, lets be honest, at the best they are preserving a small slice of a single landrace pie. Better than nothing but not what is needed.
I predict that with in a few decades all landraces that are within an easy jet ride for tourists will be Multi-Polly-Hybrids like what has already happened in Morocco, Mexico, and Jamaica. The local landrace growers need to remember that they are just caretakers of their heritage landraces and if they drop the ball they will be replaced by Multi-Polly-Hybrids, this is going to happen....
-SamS

It's not even tourists these days, but the people in 3rd world nation's. I've seen people buying seeds from Thailand, all over South America. Sure they probably won't buy the $100 packs but plenty of F2's, Nirvana and shit, they can purchase Dutch and American genetics from for fairly cheap.

Might cost them an entire weeks pay, but if they chuck some pollen around they pretty much got it for life. They ain't stupid either they'll be trying to make hybrids like CA and Holland, actually read something about Columbians possibly getting into the seed business, something tells me that $100 pack of seeds is going to be a thing of the past.

Unfortunate for the landraces, but we have a few companies with them and if Columbia really starts breeding well they'll work for cheap and grow huge fields, they have been for a long time anyways. I'm sure one of the Cartels have some really old seeds from great Uncle Pablo. Lol, You think about it, why wouldn't you send your kids to America to learn botany it's part of the business, maybe more so cocaine, but they have plenty of energy. lol

Actually here's the article I don't think I read it from Hightimes though. https://www.google.com/amp/s/hightimes.com/grow/colombia-poised-seed-bank-world/amp/

 

[Sunshineinabag]

Just valdez had coffee in one sac
....coke leaves in another and two pockets full of Colombian gold seeds...��. I miss him

 

[ahortator]

At one point years ago I wanted to steer towards sativa's and equatorial based cultivar.....ace I didn't know about.......and snowhigh wanted like 200.00 a pack for me as a beg I was like wow....these must be rich man's plants

Try to get a landrace Thai. They are a bit tricky to grow due to extremely late and long flowering. But modern stupidness have destroyed most of the shorter flowering sativas by no reason. South African were early flowering but they are now growing mostly hybrids. I really don't know why! The same has happened in Mexico where there was reasonably flowering time strains with good yields and most if not all of them have been simply replaced.

Going further towards the South the situation has become really bizarre because they grow outdoors with lights in order to pevent the moderns early flowering hybrids flower too fast and yield only a few grams per plant.

I really hate this era of stupidness: CBD strains, which we used to call hemp, and it is a really crappy thing to smoke, feminized, autoflowering ruderalis, S1's, couchlocking and sluggish, high tolerance and low ceiling stinky hybrids. If things go by this way I am going to replace marijuana for jimsonweed smoking.

 

[Iowa Grown]

Whats that old adage...people are people, LoL! But seriously... if you understand that one thing, then you should understand that what you maybe keeping, or are now growing out, or have grown in the past, might not even be what it really is! Sure, if you have kept some old stock, then you have more of a chance to have some strains that are what they really are, but then again, even many of those are sadly unknown hybrids or other hybrids that were sadly labeled as landrace!

 

[Drewsif]

If things go by this way I am going to replace marijuana for jimsonweed smoking.

I think that's what they call kush in Arizona.

Seriously.. All the OG smells like peanuts. Or milk. Or KushKush perfume.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

They were both elite vigorous hybrids and landraces what we did was take a given clone that had say THCVA in small amounts and self it and look for the progeny (the all female S1 seeds) that was highest in THCVA and then self it and make S2 seeds to grow out and find the highest in THCVA to self and make S3 seeds to continue with.... For THCVA we used 4 unrealted lines then combined them at the end to restore vigor, it worked because the 4 lines of S3-5 were unrelated and when combined at the end they restored hybrid vigor.
You can easily make S1, or S2, but try an S5, every recessive trait is expressed that has been masked.
We have done this with dozens of lines for Cannabinoid development, it happened to all of them, very common to see functionally sterile, the pollen was sticky altho viable, it would not dehiscence, you could use a q-tip by hand.
Why would they be making S4 or above? For what use? They are not elite clones or seeds, only usefull for breeding if you restore vigor.

-SamS

G `day Sam

The plants you used , were they very inbred to start with ?
The reason I ask is I know folks who have selfed for more than 3 generations and they tell me they have no problem producing pollen on their reversed lines .
How about the OG Kushes that come from S1s of S1s ?

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[romanoweed]

Just for newbies, this is selfing, or making seeds out of one plant without male trough chemicals wich let the plant generate male and female gender on one single plant, working for rather short time than long time.
The normal inbreeding on the other side with male and female separate some said works long time

 

[Sunshineinabag]

I wish u guys were closer so u could check out my sativa's.....I love talking shop with farmers

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Cannabis is a Heterozygous Dioecious Obligate Outcrosser meaning if you self a cannabis plant it will within a few generations be so inbred that it will lose all vigor and have all kinds of troubles like not producing pollen or the pollen will be functionally sterile.
Cannabis suffers from inbreeding depression when selfed, we found that after 3-5 generations the cannabis plants were all but impossible to work with as a parent to produce viable seeds.
We used STS to self a single plant line repeatedly in our search to make single cannabinoid varieties, we did this with many lines and they all suffered loss of vigor and inbred depression.

-SamS

Since cannabis is dioecious, I generally borrow the terms animal breeders use, which are inbreeding and linebreeding to mean two different things. Animal breeders use the term inbreed to mean crossing brothers and sisters, while linebreed means intergenerational crosses. 'Cubing' is an example of linebreeding. Selfing is different. Most crops are incrossing, meaning they have perfect flowers with both male and female parts, so they naturally 'self'. Cannabis needs to be convinced to straddle the fence a bit for us to get pollin from a female and self it. I confess I don't have much experience with selfing cannabis, I've only done it a few times and it was many years ago.

The terms are quite useful since they distinguish various different breeding plans and make thinking about them easier.

Is there any evidence with the 1000 year inbread corn? And is there evidence this heightend desired traits like size... harvest amount...
Still i dont just believe anything, but i kind of trust what youre saying

Just some text from a quick google search;

Some varieties of plants such as tomatoes, which can self-pollinate, have a much smaller problem with inbreeding depression than plants such as corn, that require a population of at least 200 plants to keep from inbreeding depression.

In The Resilient Gardener, Carol Deppe says the following about inbreeding depression for corn: “Corn is very subject to inbreeding depression. Here’s an illustration: Suppose you grow up a hundred plants and save grain each year from the plant that yields best. What kind of yield will you have in five years? Answer: Your corn variety will be so weak, wimpy, and low-yielding that you will be lucky to be able to keep it going at all. Its yield will stink compared to what you have started with, even though you selected for the highest yield each year.” pg. 282

Carol Deppe goes on to explain some standards to live by to keep from inbreeding: “The standard seed-saving rule of thumb is to save seeds from 20 plants if the species is an inbreeder and from 100 or more plants if it is an outbreeder”. Pg. 304

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

STS selfing is breeding with a single female no animals are bred this way. You self a single female and if you select a progeny from those S1 seeds and self it again you are selfing the line, as the S1 seedling is not the same as the mother that was selfed to create the S1 seeds. The result of the selfed S1 is S2 seeds, and so on. The whole process if continued is selfing a line.
If you use different variety parents for producing feminized all female seeds they do not suffer from inbreeding depression, they are the equivalent of an F1 hybrid.
-SamS

Since cannabis is dioecious, I generally borrow the terms animal breeders use, which are inbreeding and linebreeding to mean two different things. Animal breeders use the term inbreed to mean crossing brothers and sisters, while linebreed means intergenerational crosses. 'Cubing' is an example of linebreeding. Selfing is different. Most crops are incrossing, meaning they have perfect flowers with both male and female parts, so they naturally 'self'. Cannabis needs to be convinced to straddle the fence a bit for us to get pollin from a female and self it. I confess I don't have much experience with selfing cannabis, I've only done it a few times and it was many years ago.

The terms are quite useful since they distinguish various different breeding plans and make thinking about them easier.



Just some text from a quick google search;

Some varieties of plants such as tomatoes, which can self-pollinate, have a much smaller problem with inbreeding depression than plants such as corn, that require a population of at least 200 plants to keep from inbreeding depression.

In The Resilient Gardener, Carol Deppe says the following about inbreeding depression for corn: “Corn is very subject to inbreeding depression. Here’s an illustration: Suppose you grow up a hundred plants and save grain each year from the plant that yields best. What kind of yield will you have in five years? Answer: Your corn variety will be so weak, wimpy, and low-yielding that you will be lucky to be able to keep it going at all. Its yield will stink compared to what you have started with, even though you selected for the highest yield each year.” pg. 282

Carol Deppe goes on to explain some standards to live by to keep from inbreeding: “The standard seed-saving rule of thumb is to save seeds from 20 plants if the species is an inbreeder and from 100 or more plants if it is an outbreeder”. Pg. 304

 

[CannaZen]

Yes! the distinction between linebreeding and inbreeding is crucial.


two plants may create thousands of seeds and of each seed that uniform phenotype is an evolution genome, Epigenetic. Rna codes plant experience into seed. Okay.


So they're choosing smaller hybridized plants because they condensate their energy into flowers and not vegetative length output.


With that two uniform phenotypes, 1,000 females 1,000 males its 4 dimensional. by the time you get to the light at the end of the tunnel you have Sativa, Indica and hybrids.


I see it!!! oh my god it is so simple.. How do i put it into words.



I'm saying it is not a pyramid scheme if that all recombine, its relative to the parents past uniform evolutionary.


I dont know how to explain it. Say thousands of plants were grown from only two parents... it is *based on the present uniformity from those two plants and so..


in (successful evolutionary) recombination it is being based on the phenotype and not the genotype...


umm. when you keep breeding an ibl from only handfuls of plants.... they can only segregate genomically so much its carrying momentum as a copies in unison and when you only use a small portion of the (present) uniformity of the genome it is not an evolution as engine it is monoculture.


the phenotype is only the present uniformity of the genome to environment. the phenotype is a static term and your talking about variation response to environment as it grows (it captures energy and utilizes it so, as so it grows) were the population only so small.. less adaptive plants not capable of capturing as much energy to produce appropriate output in accordance with its environment I mean, vigor is plant efficiency plant efficiency not the other way around fools. the tropical zone has more UV but outdoorgrown northern plants are quite comparable to tropical sativa potency (maybe?) and actually at higher elevations the atmosphere is thinner and so there is more indirect uv light bouncing around the atmosphere at that climate.




I'm on to something here. Seeds are selected upon phenotype and not genotype, alone. Hybrid depression is a real thing because they're polyhybrids right so not true to type however they're bred from monoculture and static environments mostly, your talking of individuals selected to be hybridically vigourous from hybrids from bottlenecked hybrids from handfuls of plants, its a mess.


uhh.. im out of my realm of element per say here anyway about hybrid depression they say cannabis can only be so vigorous and it is result of plant efficiency and population size defining uniformity of the phenotype in genome i suspect, hypothetically. DING DING DING DING! We have a winner!


There are heterologous, homologous, heterogeneous, homogeneous and Gene alleles heterozygous, homozygous.

 

[ahortator]

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/article/...uO1mUtZHrQe92ZQYfKNgXZPW-MrYa9qd2aEjNLgpjbvlc

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/late...FKV9lFasLrdS57w583X7J31GaE70GwtVujsuAunLQskRU

 

[Sunshineinabag]

Man i woulda loved to see what the farmer away from civilization for 40 years had in his garden's. Great article

 

[beta]

the scientist has also developed an entire marketing plan for the landrace cultivar.

Magic beans for sale - Seems legit.

 

[romanoweed]

Also a Link for a Web-Portal:

https://phys.org/search/?search=Landraces

Per example you find this:

https://phys.org/news/2017-04-geography-culture-latin-american-caribbean.html