is this how you breed quality genetics?

[Bag]

i think its a woman from death row , the woman maybe that freaky movie was about

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

breeding weed is like breeding dogs , its like breeding anything, all the laws are the same. people that bred dogs didnt grow out thousands of dogs to get the dogs they wanted, they did it few dogs at a time, few litters at a time. yall guys are fuckin nuts. check out the story of dobermans. anyway im not a pro, i just know it aint as complicated as yall act, people been breeding flowers cats, dogs, veggies for thousands of years with no confusion, they know what they like and they try to make more !


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_breeding

I hear you BUT I disagree completely and here is why. most of my opinions come from some classes that I have taken over time, one in particular was my philosophy class from the ethics standpoint. what was determined from that class was that in philosophy when you say that something is good, it has to be good overall, good for everyone and not just you, if its good for just you and not everyone else then its no good on a whole.

the reason why I started this thread was to get to the bottom of what are the standards that a good breeder should have; what parameters should be followed; protocols; methodologies; ethics and things of that nature. anyone can breed BUT what it takes to be a real "breeder" is what I want to know. I don't care about "who has the greatest looking plants", I want to know how they got them so that when time comes for me to purchase seeds I can make the best decisions possible

dogs is one thing, with dogs no you cant get what you want by breeding hundreds of dogs at a time BUT with cannabis and something in seed form you CAN grow out hundreds of seeds to achieve the best results possible and with seeds you can go through the proper testing methods in order to get the genus information necessary to gain the most information you can to achieve the best results possible.

the science may be the same, yes I agree with that BUT the "capabilities" within the two genre are undeniably different

if this thread is anything like the one that everyone makes reference to that got deleted then it truly was a shame that it got deleted, because this information is detrimental to the cannabis community (breeders and consumers alike) on a whole whether you want to admit it or not.

 

[growhi]

how do you breed quality genetics ????????????

large selections !!

1000 seed selection will almost always be better , than a 20 seed or 5 seed sub cool special lol

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Your example of THC/CBD is nice except CBD is seldom found in western bred Cannabis as project CBD states only 1 in 750 are high CBD, 4% CBD or more. I would say only 1 in 100 have any CBD at all. If you are going to breed it is nice to have a goal that is reachable that and understanding basic breeding methods.
I know you can breed for CBD, be it CBD only or a specific CBD/THC ratio, I did it a decade ago. But it is not as easy as pop 30 seeds...I used thousands...

-SamS

I just got out of an exhausting back ond forth on another thread here specifically about whats important about breeding in regard to the breeding process.

I have a myriad of issues with the whole "breeding/seed" scene overall. from what Ive seen the state of it is a complete monkey hustle; strains aren't stable, prices are ridiculous, customer service is shit and no one is stepping up the standards for any of it from what I read and see on here.

heres my take on breeding overall: I think that breeding isn't about just popping a whole bunch of seeds and having a "scratch and sniff" orgy to see who stinks the best along with ogling plants for something that is supposedly/mysteriously supposed to pop out at you. there are so many other aspects that breeders don't mention doing and they should; if breeding is the great science that ppl claim it to be then why aren't most breeders talking about the other steps in the scientific process that or just as, if not, more important than "stock selection"? with the possibility of pheno variation at the turn of every popped seed then why aren't there other selections methods being relied upon?

I would think that if one is breeding plants and looking for good/descent genetics that THC/CBD levels of the plants being used for breeding should be taken into account for a complete and overall breeding process. I don't know if this is done or not but for example:

say I pop 30 plants in hellacious facility that I have; I claim 20 females and take cuts from each one, flower them out and test the end product after dried and cured properly, once dried/cured properly I test for THC/CBD levels and choose a worthy female or male that way and I say male as well because don't male plant produce THC/CBD levels of their own? although the levels are significantly lower than female plants they are still present so shouldn't they be tested as well as a factor since it actually is a valid factor and can have an effect on the end result via seed produced? if your a serious breeder shouldn't you want your values to be rated/tested for optimal production of end product , that product being the THC/CBD levels to see how strong or weak a plant is or could be?

so I wanted to see what others think about the breeding/seed scene these days and where you think its going. should the standards be better? is there a better way to find keepers for breeding purposes other than the "age old"? how reliable is the "f1-s2 two step" that ppl seem to rely on to get their breeding stock and deem genetics worthy? I believe in no stone being unturned so do we automatically rule out bag seeds "just because"?

ppl tell me that im an internet thug and I still don't know what that means, I guess im just too immersed in reality to take any of this internet shit that serious; and yes I cuss like a drunken sailor, and could care less about your feelings so I want some serious shit to be said here

whats your take on it all?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

When you say:
"you cannot just decide what to breed for, for example, you can only observe which desired traits a given population has to offer, and try to see if you can manage to produce a population that produces acceptable homogenous offspring carrying the observed desired traits."

Don't know what to say, of course you can just decide what to breed for, be it all THC, all CBD, all CBG, all CBG, all THCV or any sort of ratio of the Cannabinoids. The same with color, smell, effects, and any other Cannabis trait.

-SamS

hello,

lets say you take samples of those supposed 20 females and other X amount of males for lab testings, and you get wonderful results.

however, this does not translate as capacity for these individuals to pass on their specific traits to their progeny in a consistent way.

to see whether an individual is able to pass on its desired traits to the progeny, you need to test in different ways than simply measuring thc/cbd levels at a lab.

you have a couple avenues to do that; you can go with the selfing method that Tom champions, which is pretty efficient in terms of time needed to see up to what point an individual is able to pass on its traits.

or you can go the normal male/female route, which will take you longer to determine at what % of consistency a mom and dad is able to pass on its desired traits.

what makes a breeder a good breeder is not much which of these method he chooses to use, or whether he uses both; but rather, his complete understanding of how things actually work, and the honesty in accepting the limitations imposed on us by nature.

you cannot just decide what to breed for, for example, you can only observe which desired traits a given population has to offer, and try to see if you can manage to produce a population that produces acceptable homogenous offspring carrying the observed desired traits.

a point which by the way, is not understood very well. due to hubris mainly.

peace

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

"Breeding flowering plants is mostly about luck.Do you think this is true for the flower industry?"
Of course not.
And when you say "homozygosity as though it were desirable or possible, because it is neither."

I can't believe you believe this, but anyway you are wrong, I created homozygous plants, more then a decade ago that were confirmed by lab analysis. Heterozygous plants, like all Cannabis found in the world is often better for production because it has more vigor. An F1 hybrid population of 2 different completly unrelated populations is even better for vigor.

-SamS

Breeding flowering plants is mostly about luck.

Therefore the best breeders are the ones with the biggest populations, which plays towards a lucky find, a lucky cross which gives relatively high incidence of desired traits.

It's more about NOT distributing seeds, being strict with selection, testing huge numbers of crosses and re-making the best ones for bulking up seed pools.

IMO intensive breeding is a cheap shortcut and its failure is measured in the vast amounts of sick/weak lines which must be ended. If you instead breed less intensively, you can still go forwards towards enriching your traits, seeing which crosses turned out best and bulking them up, with the right kind of variation around those traits.

Understanding ratios of simplistic inheritance actually means very little and certainly is less valuable than trying more kin crosses out to check for better parent plants.

So for all the angry folk who really need to blame someone for a perceived decline, please aim it at intensive indoor breeders who talk about homozygosity as though it were desirable or possible, because it is neither.
And aim it at yourselves for not demonstrating how you think it should be done instead.

 

[excalibud7]

good info being shared here

 

[bombadil.360]

When you say:
"you cannot just decide what to breed for, for example, you can only observe which desired traits a given population has to offer, and try to see if you can manage to produce a population that produces acceptable homogenous offspring carrying the observed desired traits."

Don't know what to say, of course you can just decide what to breed for, be it all THC, all CBD, all CBG, all CBG, all THCV or any sort of ratio of the Cannabinoids. The same with color, smell, effects, and any other Cannabis trait.

-SamS

Hello Sam,

you cannot just decide to breed a blue line out of a population where you don't find blue individuals.

thus I wrote that you can only select for the traits already present in a given population.

you cannot decide what any given population has to offer, you can only observe what it has to offer and then choose which is the best trait to select for in said population.

you cannot just decide to breed for cat piss smell out of a population in which no individual expresses said smell.

etc...

peace!

 

[bombadil.360]

moreover, even in populations where a trait you want to breed for is present, there's no security or warranty in that said trait passes on consistently enough, or in other words, that the trait is dominant enough to appear with acceptable consistency in the progeny.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

If the trait is THC you are after and all you have is very low THC varieties, it is still straight forward classical breeding that will yield a 100% THC of 10-20%. The same with other Cannabinoids, often I started with extreamly low levels, but by breeding with a goal I progressed slowly but surely, of course Cannabinoid breeding is only involving a few genes, traits you refer to may involve dozens. I don't need dominace, I don't need consitancy to start with that is what breeding is for....

"you cannot just decide to breed for cat piss smell out of a population in which no individual expresses said smell."

Of course you can, you just find a variety that has the right terpenes for cat piss smell but does not smell of cat piss because the terpenes are of a low level they really don't smell like cat piss or that other terpenes are covering the cat piss smell with stronger smelling higher levels of terpenes that don't smell like cat piss.
It is the same with most breeding, the goal comes first then the work then the results.
I do understand what you are tring to say I just don't think you really understand, what is possible and what is not.

-SamS

moreover, even in populations where a trait you want to breed for is present, there's no security or warranty in that said trait passes on consistently enough, or in other words, that the trait is dominant enough to appear with acceptable consistency in the progeny.

 

[xmobotx]

i cant help but wonder why you would want to breed for cat-piss smell

 

[bombadil.360]

If the trait is THC you are after and all you have is very low THC varieties, it is still straight forward classical breeding that will yield a 100% THC of 10-20%. The same with other Cannabinoids, often I started with extreamly low levels, but by breeding with a goal I progressed slowly but surely, of course Cannabinoid breeding is only involving a few genes, traits you refer to may involve dozens. I don't need dominace, I don't need consitancy that is what breeding is for....

Hello Sam,

when we do selective breeding, we are trying to establish dominance and consistency though. even if the traits we are after are not; if we isolate them, these will become the dominant and consistent traits.

but yeah, in essence I agree, that's what breeding is for; however I'd say that without the possibility that nature offers to fix traits, to help them become more consistent in terms of appearance, and also dominant in terms of its progeny, then we'd not even be able to breed anything.

peace!

 

[bombadil.360]

I do understand what you are tring to say I just don't think you really understand, what is possible and what is not.

-SamS

I'm gonna be the last to start fronting and try to compare myself to the likes of you; I've probably only germinated a tiny % of the plants you have.

in my limited experience, what is possible has more to do with what the plants allow.

peace!

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

breeding

breeding

What about traits that are recessive,? You really just want to eliminate any dominate traits that dominate your recessive one.
But I think we are splitting hairs.

-SamS

Hello Sam,

when we do selective breeding, we are trying to establish dominance and consistency though. even if the traits we are after are not; if we isolate them, these will become the dominant and consistent traits.

but yeah, in essence I agree, that's what breeding is for; however I'd say that without the possibility that nature offers to fix traits, to help them become more consistent in terms of appearance, and also dominant in terms of its progeny, then we'd not even be able to breed anything.

peace!

 

[bombadil.360]

What about traits that are recessive,? You really just want to eliminate any dominate traits that dominate your recessive one.
But I think we are splitting hairs.

-SamS

you are right.

my issue is simply up to what point are we able to breed for a recessive trait; for example, how far can we go without loosing other important traits in our attempts to fix a specific recessive one.

will we loose vigor? taste? in our attempt to try to fix a recessive cat piss smell? (the one xmobotx seems to like a lot )

 

[xmobotx]

can you fix a recessive trait?

 

[purple_man]

di-haploid breeding, via anther/ovary culture would be a possiblity...

 

[inquest]

Bombadil
Tom broke it down for us either here or in "everyones a breeder" thread. To paraphrase: 1, have a goal. 2, grow out a bunch of seed and select those that most reach our goal. 3, self them and separate the seed into "families". 4. grow the families out seperately and select the best from these to again self. 5, repeat the "grow out and self" phase once or twice. 6, combine the families to restore heterozygosity in non selected traits. Now you should have a line that is fairly pure breeding for your goals and has vigor.

Dominant or recessive traits will pass 100% if their parents are homozygous for it.

Co-dominant traits will need parents with differing allels. EG. Human blood type AB needs each parent to have one allel and the other parent to have it's compliment. BB x AA = AB @ 100%

 

[bombadil.360]

Bombadil
Tom broke it down for us either here or in "everyones a breeder" thread. To paraphrase: 1, have a goal. 2, grow out a bunch of seed and select those that most reach our goal. 3, self them and separate the seed into "families". 4. grow the families out seperately and select the best from these to again self. 5, repeat the "grow out and self" phase once or twice. 6, combine the families to restore heterozygosity in non selected traits. Now you should have a line that is fairly pure breeding for your goals and has vigor.

Dominant or recessive traits will pass 100% if their parents are homozygous for it.

Co-dominant traits will need parents with differing allels. EG. Human blood type AB needs each parent to have one allel and the other parent to have it's compliment. BB x AA = AB @ 100%

inquest,

thanks for the cliff notes.

however, I am not discussing this particular methodology; rather, up to what point is it possible to just set up a given goal without considering the limitations of a given population.

be good.

peace

 

[inquest]

Sorry, Just was stating this was a solution to your concern over loosing some traits in order to "fix" other traits within the population.

Also, in rereading your posts you meant "dominant" as in; These traits show more frequently in the population. Not so much as; dominant vs recessive. Correct?

Actually, I've wondered about this question of yours too. The viability of breeding fat leaves from skinny ones. Breeding for something you just don't see in the population you've grown thus far. Good question and good luck!