Inbreeding.....the Skill of the Breeder.....

[HerbScience]

Lamarkism

Lamarkism

giraffes necks don't get longer because their parents stretched to reach the top leaves of trees, also you might try looking up microevolution versus macroevolution when trying to explain acclimitization (unless you are hundreds of millions years old)

 

[tazz11]

I do not undestand what you mean, tazz. Could you explain a bit?

the wording pollen chuck . is directed to throwing pollen around with out no control over where or what it will hit ,or how long it will remain active ...

 

[tazz11]

I would like to take a few minutes of your time and share some data I have on hybrid strain seed germination ,now with a lot new crosses and different strain coming into the gene pool I see a lot of small seeds some don't look developed as much as some of the others .. and it may not be the breeders fault at all some of the seeds are just hybrid and smaller then in the past .. I found something that works real well .,I use a small desk light . you can feel the warm light on the back of your hand .. ,I put the paper towel in a Tupperware dish and fold it in 1/4 so there is 4 layers then I put the seeds on top of the paper towel and then fold another paper towel in 1/4 and put it over the seeds and then soak it with bottle water , now this is known as the paper towel method ,but what you want to do is make sure the water is cool to the touch and then place the seeds under the desk light for 5 -10 minutes and then as it gets warm to the touch remove then and let them cool for hour or two and then repeat this every few hours .... . I guess its some how imitates the night and day warming and cooling of the sun and night on the seeds and they react to it ...I have had seeds that would not germinate and did this and the took right off and started swelling and germinated ..as I said I hope you try this it works and works well . I have tried scaring the seeds and everything else man can think of ....lol but this works when you go 70-75 seeds and don't lose any you start to see what I mean ... its skill and takes a little to master it . but don't all good breeders start with a seed....one other Note ,when you have the seeds in the towel . once a day soak the towel just a enough to flush the seeds with a small amount of water you can pore off the extra water just keeping them from laying in water .. but they like this and it must some how act like spring rains to them I keep the water cool to the touch and it works great ... the seeds know the difference between warm water and cool water .....I even tried the water at room temp and no its better cool to the touch... some how the plant knows the difference ...I was thinking about this post and said to my self if the seed dose not germinate the breeders skill won't matter ...lol

 

[tazz11]

my point is there is always a set of conditions ,cause and affect

in this case the seed opens from in side as well as out side . the out side environment heating and expanding, cooling and contracting weaken the shell and the water soaks into the shell casing where it triggers the birth of the seedling the seedling then grows from with in pushing out ward . so germination is a matter of basics and logics . seeds have been design by natures clock and the out come is a complex structure ,when the right set of conditions take place the seed design it self assure the very seedling will exist...the seed becomes a time capsule, so my theory is that nature has fooled us all ,the life of the plant in nature it self dictates the design and the conditions of the environment play a part in how the seeds will germinate and if we can play god and control the environments in our own grow rooms then we have the under standing to observe the nature of creation and learn from it as did God ...the seed is natures egg redesigned brake the shell and life is its reality ...the four seasons maybe define by the weather but those same conditions have been in place for millions of years and the seed were caused by those effects ....we copy the effects it causes the seed shell to open .... from theory to reality !

 

[Gr33nSanta]

is it possible that selective in-breeding is the problem and not in-breeding itself? What I mean by that is if you are to always select the tallest female and the tallest male each time, will you at some point grow a plant 50 meters high? My guess would be that at a certain point you will reach the plateau of certain traits you are breeding for and that's when anomalies happen.

Does that make any sense?

I am growing a lot of females F3s of my SpacePussy lane and each time so far I was mostly using a random male (late shower) and the best female, I am considering doing the same thing for F4 now except use a random female as well.

 

[Only Ornamental]

is it possible that selective in-breeding is the problem and not in-breeding itself? What I mean by that is if you are to always select the tallest female and the tallest male each time, will you at some point grow a plant 50 meters high? My guess would be that at a certain point you will reach the plateau of certain traits you are breeding for and that's when anomalies happen.

True inbreeding in cannabis is always a problem; if you select for something specific you'll be just faster than by random sibling breeding. Random inbreeding is no real inbreeding, it is just making a new generation.
You see, inbreeding means that all individuals in your population finally become homozygous (at least as close as it gets) and have a nearly identical genetic make-up (this sort of IBL does for example exist in certain lab animals). You don't automatically get anomalies because of that but you may get them because of the higher chance of obtaining recessive 'cripple' alleles in homozygous form. Good inbreeding will not give runts but in case of cannabis will result in very weak plants.
If you select for size, then it is not inbreeding but selective breeding. Properly done, your plants retain a high allele diversity (even partial heterozygosity) and hence a good vigour but they will never reach 50 m but their biologically possible limit (although, the tallest hemp plants were/are F1 hybrids because hybrid vigour is very important in cannabis).

There are at least three types of 'anomalies':
- One is called 'transgressive segregation' (caused by hybrid vigour) and means something like 'extreme phenotypes'. That's what many seek...
- One are just anomalies without genetic mutations often caused by environmental factors or just by chance. Weaker plants or inbred ones may show such phenos more often because they are more fragile. You can't breed these traits.
- Genetic mutations. They form independent of inbreeding but show more often (that means genotype becomes phenotype) in inbred lines because many mutations are recessive and hence become homozygous (ergo visible) more easily by inbreeding.

 

[HerbScience]

it might be good to keep in mind some of the differences in plant and animal phenotypes such as a goat born with seven legs is in trouble but a tree with seven main branches instead of four may be an advantage in their niche

 

[tazz11]

OK inbreeding dose something most for get .. its the random selection of phenol types . see will that next off spring have 3 phenol types or 10 ? and what gender will those off spring be ..mass out come is not selected by the breeder...thus IBL...I found something very funny . not only do few breeders keep male strain base for each strain .they cut their clones from veg stage ...lol that makes for great veg qualities and purities not flowering stage or what I call PH stage .. pre-harvest , your clones will die almost all of them but not all ...lol most of your breeders are cutting clones from veg ...go ahead guess what it will become I would rather cut 30 clones from 2 weeks before harvest and know what the best weed is there and where its coming from because I sure know where its going ...lol

 

[tazz11]

some said I was not a breeder , WRONG ! they are kids .. lets get this correct .. F1 vigor how can you get that from cutting clones from veg ...?

your throwing the best qualities and purities of your strains away ...

clones should be cut from healthy plants in pre harvest stage , the best steps to strain qualities and purities are basic math .. in theory . I hold in front of you a clone cut from the lower part of a female plant ..in veg , if I give that clone to you . you have the best veg qualities and purities of that plant in veg stage un-refine ...lol lol lol

now the same plant is 2 weeks from Harvest .. I am starting to flush her and cut away lower branches to force better qualities and she is now close to her best purities ..now I cut a clone from her lowest remaining branches and hand it to you .. what do you have in that clone ...?????????

now the 10 million dollar question , what makes F1 vigor ?

yes ! the Female mother flowering plant that makes seeds ,develops them from pre flowering threw flowering stage and to what stage .. "pre Harvest !"
that's what makes F1 vigor ...seeds develope and reach peak development in Pre - Harvested at the plants peak ...and that's only 1/2 of my gender theory ..

so ask your self why dose F1 vigor better with two different strain bases ? simple ...they don't Pre -Harvest at the same time ..two different strain bases ,two different genders at two different peaks ...male vs female gender at peak ..

I stated that the two oldest seed banks were serious seeds and sensei seeds and before I could explain why I made the statement the trolls jumped all over it .. I don't count all the rest of the seed banks there are only a few worthy ..so I did not make a mistake...and some may get mad to bad for them ...if they make strains like Hash plant ,chronic or belladonna or blue mystic or bog bubble then maybe I will change my opinion , good luck with that ...lol


so is the real breeder the person that agrees or agrees with the person that run a given web site ,or is it the person still willing to think beyond the labels ....the person willing to set and watch the plants and learn from them ,or walk softly in their world ....?

the human mind is gifted and we can grow in the under standing of how we relate to the plants threw out their life time and try as hard as it maybe to under stand the off spring they cast before us .... they have a life as do we . but can we under stand them for who and what they are . they are beings beyond our foolish labels,, and they live and die the same as we do ..they communicate slow can you under stand them ...?

 

[tazz11]

True inbreeding in cannabis is always a problem; if you select for something specific you'll be just faster than by random sibling breeding. Random inbreeding is no real inbreeding, it is just making a new generation.
You see, inbreeding means that all individuals in your population finally become homozygous (at least as close as it gets) and have a nearly identical genetic make-up (this sort of IBL does for example exist in certain lab animals). You don't automatically get anomalies because of that but you may get them because of the higher chance of obtaining recessive 'cripple' alleles in homozygous form. Good inbreeding will not give runts but in case of cannabis will result in very weak plants.
If you select for size, then it is not inbreeding but selective breeding. Properly done, your plants retain a high allele diversity (even partial heterozygosity) and hence a good vigour but they will never reach 50 m but their biologically possible limit (although, the tallest hemp plants were/are F1 hybrids because hybrid vigour is very important in cannabis).

There are at least three types of 'anomalies':
- One is called 'transgressive segregation' (caused by hybrid vigour) and means something like 'extreme phenotypes'. That's what many seek...
- One are just anomalies without genetic mutations often caused by environmental factors or just by chance. Weaker plants or inbred ones may show such phenos more often because they are more fragile. You can't breed these traits.
- Genetic mutations. They form independent of inbreeding but show more often (that means genotype becomes phenotype) in inbred lines because many mutations are recessive and hence become homozygous (ergo visible) more easily by inbreeding.

"genetic mutations " do they show more often because of inbreeding . or is it in fact environmental stress of being forced or the touch of humans ?

 

[Only Ornamental]

"genetic mutations " do they show more often because of inbreeding . or is it in fact environmental stress of being forced or the touch of humans ?

Do you ask because you don't exactly understand what I mean or because you are not sure if I'm correct?
In the first case, read at least the second part of the last sentence in your/my citation .
It's easier to make mutations visible using inbreeding but they are not more frequent because of inbreeding. It's a spontaneous process.
Common environmental stress leads to simple anomalies and deformations, not genetic mutations. Humans have nothing to do with that ether, except making nuclear power plants melt and spraying mutagenic substances on their crop calling it 'agrochemicals' and 'necessary' or plain and simple treat their seeds accordingly to induce mutations on purpose.... this sort of things certainly increases them. But that's probably not what you meant.

 

[tazz11]

no in fact I was making mutations using urea nitrogen's years ago .. I could make a home made extract and mutate a plant and then after it no longer looked like a cannabis plant I would let it go and it would become a stronger female plant and revert back toward the cannabis strain it came from ...but yes I do agree with what your saying . its only part of the bigger picture ,but your correct ..

sorry its not that wrong ,its that I under stand the strain bases differently then the excepted rule of so called ED ...

my point was ,if the mutations are in the strain base then they are there for a reason ..saying they show up more often in IBL's is lacking the all mighty why?...lol

I defend the qualities and purities that strain bases have to have to be cannabis . I can make a mutation but dose that make it no longer a cannabis plant . and if so at what point is it no longer cannabis ...?

if you get a mutation in a set of off spring .. I under stand that mutation is there as part of that strain base and it is part of it's nature ..

so we think its a mutation . but we label it that because it dose not for fill our own needs ...my point being ,that strains have multi balancing factors and those mutations are part of even flow of genetic matter that make up each strain base and how they develop and grow threw out their life cycle ... when we remove those mutation . it can effect the life cycle in far more ways then we under stand in this small modern world of ours ...

so what types of mutations and at what stage of plant growth and in what environment ?

are you referring to within the full life cycle of a IBL . a given plant within the IBL or a given strain and how it is effected over all by being converted to IBL environments . or the control of the said breeder...?

the true IBL has no human contact at all ...! good example is a land race strain base...

so tell me something ... if we in some small way control are in door grow environments how then can we in anyway make a IBL indoor ?

that was a loaded question ..
the fact is we can not control a IBL ...

a IBL flows with the nature and ever changing environments of the nature surrounding it .... its a push / pull factor if you will..
you may have dozens of factors pushing and dozens of factors pulling the strain in malt able directions at any given stage of its life cycle and that all takes place with in any given point of each plant within the strain base..

look out in to a corn field . you see a great field of corn . but testing a number of plants within the field helps control the over all health of the field as well as the strain base ...they do this thousand of times testing thousands of fields for a small .6 % improvement in over all growth . but I say dose over all growth make a healthier strain base ?

Darwin say NO...

but our effects we cause unseen reactions within a given strain base , its the house of cards effect . touch one and cause the chain of effects that bring down the house ..

so I guess the real question is topic being IBL without the human factor ...lol

so can we automate our systems to the point of nature . I don't think we can . our automated systems are not the same as nature it self ... we are foolish to try . how can our lights be as the sun . or our fans be as the wind that passes over the surface of the earth on a cool morning breeze ....lol we may come close but that's just our foolish nature to try ...lol

 

[tazz11]

I have to add one more point to this topic . I don't under stand why people think they can grow a IBL strain in door ?

why because even your environment changes the strain base from its given stabilization...

this is one of my biggest concerns about seed banks and qualities and purities ...if you set standards for growing a given strain base then sell the seed to a grower how can he match the seed banks over all conditions ..if he dose not match those conditions the strain will react ..by cause and effect . ..

you get one chance .. if you make clones or seeds you no longer have the same base strain ..even if we don't see it or under stand how any given strain base will stabilize to the conditions its being grown in ..we like to think we are in control ...lol

 

[Only Ornamental]

Please tazz11, take my good advice and read a botany book or stop smoking pot .

You don't create mutations with urea nitrogen but with nitrosourea. Then, you can't revert these random mutations because a true mutation usually is a mutation of the genetic code.
You're talking about phenotypical aberrations and the like which have nothing to do with breeding.
Then again, an IBL is an inbred line, in case of outbreeders like cannabis something that only mankind can create. A land race is anything but an inbred line!

And that's just a very few points where you're completely wrong (to put it nicely).

 

[tazz11]

Please tazz11, take my good advice and read a botany book or stop smoking pot .

You don't create mutations with urea nitrogen but with nitrosourea. Then, you can't revert these random mutations because a true mutation usually is a mutation of the genetic code.
You're talking about phenotypical aberrations and the like which have nothing to do with breeding.
Then again, an IBL is an inbred line, in case of outbreeders like cannabis something that only mankind can create. A land race is anything but an inbred line!

And that's just a very few points where you're completely wrong (to put it nicely).

you should not even touch a plant ... go read your book and use your chemicals on your self .. tell that sh** to the honey bees...tell that to all the growers that leave chemicals behind and damage the environment ,no don't tell me your a hydro man ...

they knew everything those books could teach them they are not breeders they are fools .....LOL

, you can think what ever you want, good luck with that ...

you don't get real skills from a book , you get it from years and years of hard work and research of observing strains and plants firsthand ...

 

[tazz11]

by the way .do you think a clone is a mutation ?

 

[Only Ornamental]

Hey tazz, (I beg you to read this here very carefully!)
It wasn't meant as an offence (though I see why you might be inclined in thinking so) but as an honest advice.
I'm also not implying that you're a bad grower or stupid person, how could I? It's just that your reasoning lacks any scientific sense... See, knowing to grow plants and understanding them on a molecular level are two different things and being good in one does not make you good in the other and vice versa. There's also no obligation in knowing both (though, putting it nicely this time, it may seem preferable to not sharing 'knowledge' on a topic you're not so familiar with) but being good in one may help becoming better in the other.

Look, I'm far from proposing that you should shut up. K?
You should share your findings and observations, they are valuable, but please (really PLEASE) don't try to explain them with science... there's nothing good coming from that. Again, no offence, just a very honest and straight conclusions. Nobody is good in everything and there's no shame in that; after all, it doesn't implicate stupidity. Knowing your weaknesses is actually a good thing and now you know yours... I am well aware that it can be perceived as hurtful at first glance when someone (especially a stranger with the peacock aura of a know-it-all) tells you one but in most cases it will reveal as helpful in the long run. Hence, I don't take your reaction personally *smokes pipe of peace*.

Anyway, I do sometimes use 'chemicals' for fun experiments but not on plants I intend consuming (that goes for all my plants, tomato, girasole, peach etc...) and I did never use mutagens either (you were saying you did, remember?). I'm also very picky regarding agrochemicals and, case there's really no way around, chose those with low environmental impact -> check my other posts. And no, I'm also no hydro guy but prefer organic soil.

Besides, what has a clone to do with mutations?

 

[tazz11]

well that was interesting ....

 

[beta]

.

 

[tazz11]

You understand that literally everything, including water, is a 'chemical' - Right?

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2013/03/08/chemical-is-not-a-bad-word/

why are you making water ...lol