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Inbreeding.....the Skill of the Breeder.....

waveguide

Active member
Veteran
hi, i'm blacklisted by the freemasons. 10 years next august of covert harassment and all sorts of real fun times.

just thought i'd mention it since we're talking :)

!thank you my good buddy!

anyway... inbreeding.
 
T

tazz11

hi, i'm blacklisted by the freemasons. 10 years next august of covert harassment and all sorts of real fun times.

just thought i'd mention it since we're talking :)

!thank you my good buddy!

anyway... inbreeding.

I am retired dude . that's one of the reasons ...lol
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
a lot of women like my ruby and gold ring ...
it dose open a few doors better then a key.....lol
I am retired dude . that's one of the reasons ...lol
I didn't know that one can use a ring as skeleton key for bedroom doors in retirement homes... You're really a twisted guy, Tazz :rolleyes: . Have fun anyway (but don't sneak up on your sis, that would be inbreeding, not the skills of a breeder ;) )!
 

shishkaboy

>>>>Beanie Man<<<<
Serious question time.
I made a cross and selected a the female pheno closest to the father's female counterpart. After a few years I found that I still had some of the original pollen used in the cross. Yesterday I went for it just to see if the pollen would still be viable. After 24 hrs it is obvious that there were at least still some viable grains by seeing these fresh white pistils shriveling already.
I am predictinv one of to possible outcomes from this backcross, I am thinking I would either get a 50\50 population of progeny that resembles the original male and original female. But I doubt it will happen like that. What I really think I will get is a 75% 25% ratio of plants that mostly look like the original father, but there will be a small population of individuals that would be almost spitting images of the original mother.

Am I just over thinking this, or am I on the right track?
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Is the mother the original F1 you kept all these years?
What were the original parents anyway?

Theoretically, the 75:25 is more likely than the 50:50 though you should rethink your thoughts as you're not really on the right track... it all depends on what you personally define of 'looking like' is ;) .
 

shishkaboy

>>>>Beanie Man<<<<
Is the mother the original F1 you kept all these years?
What were the original parents anyway?

Theoretically, the 75:25 is more likely than the 50:50 though you should rethink your thoughts as you're not really on the right track... it all depends on what you personally define of 'looking like' is ;) .

Yes the new mom is the same f1 cut from the original batch. The founding p1 stock was a female cut my bro brought back from a friend. It was most likely a bag seed.
The father was a gift from a buddy on a different forum, a male querkle that was headed for the bin.
Here's link to some pics
http://www.rollitup.org/breeders-paradise/410886-shishkaboys-breeding-showcase.html
 
T

tazz11

skill of the breeder

ok I find my self researching a strain where there is little to gain and a lot of time and effort spent .when is it time to cut your losses and how many real breeders are out there working on the gene pool and not creating hybrid strains ...?

putting close to 3 years into a project that may yield nothing . can we even call this using true skills ...?

now the debate part .

how much do we really know about strains like these ?

:20'Thai:
"old ancient strains that live in the depths of tropical jungle that are of the creeper variety"

people made fun of what this guy said about these rare strains because few to no one ever saw them or knew anything about them ..

I am not laughing any more ..this is the best description I have seen so far of the new strain "Abducted "
it really dose exist and what he said is 95% true at this point ...
so how dose the skills of the breeder help when there is so little known about a rare unique strain base and it is this rare ...?

I will post his full description for those interested but the questions remain to the limits of the skills of the breeders out there today and how they react to a strain like this ...


20'Thai : ...there are also old ancient strains that live in the depths of tropical jungle that are of the creeper variety, that can grow almost forever and the produce a stone that can make a hardened smoker turn white as a ghost 2-3hours after they smoke it. The live long by spreading out and growing new roots in a location many feet away from the mainstream of the plant as the NODES of the plant touch the soil and encourage the sprouting of new roots and hence a new plant. Much the same as Bull grass grows by slowly spreading out and embedding new roots into the ground until it has covered you entire pawn area or yard. But these strains cannot be grown under artificial lights in a grow room as they need so much space and so much heat and humidity to stay healthy that it would be impossible to produce that environment indoors without rotting you room out with mold and possibly blowing you light bulbs form excessive moisture if they weren't inside a cowl. Also, they need light of extreme tropical intensity to activate their resin fully. HID's just wouldn't cut it for these strains, and they can take over 8months to produce a flower with amber trics that are so small that you cannot see them with the naked eye. So IOW, when you look at these buds, they look like grass/lawn clippings. They do not look like they have any resin on them at all, and they also have very little aroma. But when you smoke them, watch out. Just make sure you are sitting down and have nowhere to go for the rest of the day, and perhaps half of the next day as you will sleep long and hard then you'll wake up many hours later and find you are still ripped hard on it. They can get you so stoned that you would not believe it compared to the mainstream dopes available to most people worldwide today. But smoke like that, is not something that the purists would seek. Perhaps the young head rushers would love it, but not the true cannabis connoisseur. A connoisseur loves to smoke and taste cannabis all day whilst he lives his life as though he is not even a smoker. Cannabis of the potency levels of these freaky creeper varieties are best left there or used solely for real medicinal purposes by doctors only. For if everyone was smoking stuff like that, their whole lives would drift past them without them ever having done much other than sitting done getting stoned. Great if you are a budging little punk, but not for the real person with a true sense of accomplishment in them and a need to live life to it's fullest. On that kind of stuff, all of life will just pass you by without you ever having done or achieved anything of any real worth. In the end, you will have greatly regretted ever having started on stuff like that. Like starting and living on opium...same thing. Animal, not human.
 
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mtntrogger

Member
Veteran
what a incredible description by 20thai, the last couple of lines inparticular, this dude knows whats up and and is obviously legit as hell imo
 
T

tazz11

what a incredible description by 20thai, the last couple of lines inparticular, this dude knows whats up and and is obviously legit as hell imo
,
I fully agree ..he gives a very clear description of these types of strains .. I have been researching the Abducted strain base for months now and this is the best description I have seen any where on the web ... he maybe 100% correct , I said 95 % so far because I have not tested the roots of this strain yet ..as far as I can tell .this is one of the only type of this strain that still exist ..

this is not like growing a sativa .. it is 2-3 times as hard to grow then any modern strain ,Thai , sativa ,indicia ,ruderalis or hybrids
 

Matt8800

Member
Different species have varied resistance to inbreeding depressions. For example, corn will lose vigor after a few generations but you can inbreed plants in the gourd family with no ill effects. Plants and animals have very different effects with inbreeding. Cannabis is susceptible to inbreeding depression but to a lesser degree than many other plant species.
 
T

tazz11

at first I toped it . it looked like it was ok . but after a few months I question if it can be toped at all , the effects were delayed on the plants . I now know the strain dose not respond well ,to topping ,super cropping or cloning . it dose not like fertilizers of any kind , why I don't under stand it .. it has some how been growing in a closed environment where it has become a IBL to a condition that is pure like the rain forest ,and that's what my next step will be in a few years ...I will build a room just for this strain ...it takes time and money ..but I want to know what it is and why and see the bud ,if it makes buds ...I learn a lot about the strain so far and there is a long ways to go yet ...
 
T

tazz11

collecting Pollen

throw those males away .. no !

garment bags and stacks .. the stake acts like a tent pole and the bag becomes a tent for the plant , the clear see threw type lets the light in and you don't have to change the light cycle for the males ..they grow side by side with the females so stage of growth is close even in multi strain grows ..

if you have a staging room . when the male is ready . take it to the staging room collect your pollen fresh or keep it for the next batch or both .. 10-12 strains grow you should keep 4-6 males ..

this worked great for me ...why . out of 6 males I got 4 nice hybrid that makes 4 sets of F2's ,out of a 10 strain grow that gives you a good choice of hybrid crosses , and with this pollen collection the next 10 strains will make even more nice hybrid crosses using this pollen and the males from the next grow ,same with a good clone collection ..

some times I just wanted to breed and hybrid the crosses and for get about the smoke...money never impress me much .. so the interest is in creating hybrid crosses and seeing what they become ...

I have a good example , a 3rd gen ....we lost its tag . but its nothing like it was when it first started , now it makes a lot of nice buds for the size of the strain . and it makes more bud then the other plants in the grow did ...often this system takes strains that would not be collected and matches them up with strains from different types as well as size of flowering times .. this is the true nature of breeding in MHO ...if you know and under stand the strains you select the multi grow and lap over breeding of both genders is a true gold mine of taste and smell ..the qualities and purities reflect your abilities to learn and prefect your breeding skills ..

what works well is duck tape around your planter in my case I used 3 1/2 gallon grow bags the duck tape could be left on and the garment bag pulled up and off to collect the pollen but you could put the garment bag back on if you wanted to collect pollen at different stages of growth , killing the males off or starting a collection when you feel the need ...but going to the next grow and having 4-6 collected pollens is something you will enjoy a lot ...just watching the strains develop in the grow room and seeing what makes each strain different and then being able to pick when you want to harvest the pollen make for prime hybrids and its when the skills of the breeder shine most ..I think the best time in the last 45 years has been a 23 female grow 12 strains .6 males ..21 sets of F1's hybrid crosses seeds ,6 sets of F2's seeds , and 4 pollen collected for the next grow .. that's what breeding is to me ...where everyone dances and the women shine and men stand tall and the family values are just as much alive in the gen pool as they are in our own futures ..." I may never sell a signal seed ,,,lol"

good luck

when you forget about the rat race and the cost and the time ..what you get is the true art and skill of breeding !
 
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Can some explain this to me. In really simple terms.
I have no problem growing check out my channel on YouTube herbyfella or some of my older posts on nere,

I can't get my head round this and I .
When people are trying to create and stabilise there strains am I correct they are doing this .

White widow male x pineapple skunk female

then take the seeds from these.
Grow them out .
Find the best male and females again (picking flavours and such)
Flower
Create seeds

Repeat process till happy ???

Is this in effect creating f1 f2 f3

Is this inbreeding ???

If this is inbreeding what is outbreeding ??? Or vice versa ?

Also if i also did the same thing above

WW x PS
Create baby's
Find best female but then use the original pollen from the male to pollenate the plant .

Is this a back cross ,

Thus may sound like a stupid post but I just can't get my head round it .
If anyone could explain in a very easy way that would be great .
Thank you
 
T

tazz11

I have also been reading trying to look on google but it is very very complicated

not really ,,

ok you cross M x F (F1's) two different strains ...and yes a F1 x ether off spring makes = F2

M x F =

F1 off spring =( MF, FM, Mf, Fm , MM ,FF , F , M , mf , fm ,m ,f, ff ,mm )


Mxf=(Mf,Fm) and all inner locked traits with in the parents ...but this is what your selecting for ...the real trick is looking for the reverse of what you select for . some times you get the positive some times you get the negative ...and the odd chance of getting something in the back ground genetic patterns of ether parent .

some breeders that have mad skills can pick the selected traits out of f5 or f6's just by looking at them ..

the real question is how you want to select and can you control your environment to get a stable selection over 5 generations or your not going to get a very stable selected trait ...


now here is how to select for a given trait .. say you select MxF ..

you want a high yielding female ...

the more off spring the better the selection rates

you get a lot that look the same and a few pheno type ...

if your looking for stabilization you want the selected plants to be one of those that look the same .most avg high vs grow rates ..

if your looking for qualities and purities your going to look in the pheno types for something showing its hybrid traits . some of those traits maybe from parent back ground genetics ...some can be developed from skill and environmental qualities ,,, this means ..

you want that high yielding stain ,your not going to find a good selection for that in a grow that is fighting for its life in a unstable growing condition ...good environment good qualities reflect in the strains ...

and yes if you take a off spring and breed it back to one of the parents it is back crossing ..conditioning and controlling the out come becomes skill over time ...the wording back crossing is just that off spring female to parent male . or off spring male to female parent mother plant ...that's why it is called crossing ..cubing is done with both male and female parent and male and female off spring ,but that's latter down the line ..


any time you work breeding with in the parent strains and breed parent to off spring or vs versa it is inbreeding ,to say .. the term IBL is more natures way of doing the same thing filling a yard with two strains and coming back 5 years latter and finding plants that all look very close to the same is a matter of stabilization ...of mass ...

hope that helps ...
 
T

tazz11

Can some explain this to me. In really simple terms.
I have no problem growing check out my channel on YouTube herbyfella or some of my older posts on nere,

I can't get my head round this and I .
When people are trying to create and stabilise there strains am I correct they are doing this .

White widow male x pineapple skunk female

then take the seeds from these.
Grow them out .
Find the best male and females again (picking flavours and such)
Flower
Create seeds

Repeat process till happy ???

Is this in effect creating f1 f2 f3

Is this inbreeding ???

If this is inbreeding what is outbreeding ??? Or vice versa ?

Also if i also did the same thing above

WW x PS
Create baby's
Find best female but then use the original pollen from the male to pollenate the plant .

Is this a back cross ,

Thus may sound like a stupid post but I just can't get my head round it .
If anyone could explain in a very easy way that would be great .
Thank you


yes ,yes

yes ,inbreeding is F2,F3,F4

"Is this a back cross "...

yes ..male parent pollen x offspring female ...it would look like this . M x f=Mf
 
Why would u back cross back to original male pollen ?

Also I guess with inbreeding u can stabilise if u keep picking the best two mothers and fathers for ur desired traits ??
 
T

tazz11

Why would u back cross back to original male pollen ?

Also I guess with inbreeding u can stabilise if u keep picking the best two mothers and fathers for ur desired traits ??

often the male strain has more vigor then the female or the breeder may want the traits of a rare male ...

there is no wrong answer .. if you select a given trait and keep selecting the off spring that have those traits you will refine those traits it dose not mean the strain will become more stabilized over time , it is always a push pull ...often in modern strains the phenol types are so hybrid most can not just set them aside ,and then what they are selecting for is lost in the pheno treasure hunt ...

you should remember each generation cast hidden traits from the parents those are reflected in the phenol types common traits are the normal traits often more stable then phenol types .. so if your selecting traits that run on the edge of your main stream getting your selected traits to stabilize will be a little harder and take longer ...in this is what makes breeding the most rewarding IMHO

don't jump at the first off spring that matches the traits you want ...often back crossing different generations to the parents
will get you a much better choice and cubing can be the best way to isolate your selected trait ,the mean focus of cubing is to get a strain to develop in reverse hoping you get that rare chance that it will pull up some of its hidden locked parent traits that showed up in its past ..not always the traits your selecting for .. but this may be the best reason for breeding ....

IMHO throw together strains are never stable ...

if you work with your strain and stay with it over time you will learn from it and it will learn from you in the way of conditioning and adapting to your environment... your strain awaits ...it is hidden right in front of you ...

I always say the most stable strains came from the most stable environment ...


if you have control over your environment and know how to condition your plants you can tame any strain base no matter how rare of wild it is ....then try to select a trait it will be so easy you will lol ....
 

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