Inbreeding.....the Skill of the Breeder.....

[jyme]

hello all this is a interesting thread im a firm beliver in the use of ibl's in some breeding projects not all as its not nessacery but with a ibl that has been bottle necked down to the point it holds no diversity from across the globe. this ibl will hold its domanate traits so tightly that its hard to over ride them with the traits of other none ibl strains now i know this doesnt work like that every time as there is multitudes of varibles that will play into the equation of genetic realignment. with the ibl's a breeder who has properly maintained his ibl can use it to cross a strain from another part of the world that has a genetic setup that is unpredictibal because of the fluctuation of natures way of maintaning a species. the genetic diversity fron the non ibl will should add the vigor to the cross where as its been compermised in the ibl to obtain the domante traits that will chunk in the f1s or be clumped up. but yes ibl shouldnt mean a thing to a none breeder and are a job to maintain. theres methods in this with out out crossing your ibl as you work your way back futher and futher each generation there is seeds to be keep from each step if one goes to far into the ibl prosses in time they can cross the over exceeded ibl with one of the less inbreed genarations this will add back some of whats been lost from over exceeding the bottlenecking effect. dont take me wrong i am a big beliver in diversity and if it wasnt for the diversity avalable in canabus we wouldnt have the many variatys of the differnt strain avalable to us today.

 

[303hydro]

cool old school sticky from the gypo

 

[Henrik]

I got a few seeds from a friend, IBL, and I want to be selfsufficiant in the future with seeds from this strain.

In this strain I got only one mother and one father. I got a lot of seeds now... but with a very,very low gene pool...

I know about inbreed depression and that you need a lot bigger gene pool than this. And one way too "freshen"up the pool is to grown them some years a part from eachother then crossing them together again(same strain, just in two different valleys for example).

My plan: Take the seeds from the one (and only) mother, then sow maybe 100 or more in two different locations for some years, then take seeds from both locations and let them all breed.

My question is will this still get inbreed depression or will it work?

Sorry for bad english... Hope some understood this and know something...

 

[SOTF420]

In this strain I got only one mother and one father. I got a lot of seeds now... but with a very,very low gene pool...

The truth of the matter is, every single seed only has one mother & one father. So regardless of how many males or females you use the truth of the matter is in essence that any offspring produced will still only have one distinct mother and father in it's genetic make up. I would think the overall diversity that the parents contained before you got them, and namely how good those selections were trait wise would be much more important than your 1/1 mating of them. Just food for thought.

 

[CapoDiesel]

The truth of the matter is, every single seed only has one mother & one father. So regardless of how many males or females you use the truth of the matter is in essence that any offspring produced will still only have one distinct mother and father in it's genetic make up. I would think the overall diversity that the parents contained before you got them, and namely how good those selections were trait wise would be much more important than your 1/1 mating of them. Just food for thought.

I agree

You can do poli-crosses with 5 mums 5 dads for example, to not to lose most of gene-pool... but each seed of all, only have 1 mum and one father.

Henrik, your seeds are valid, the secret is the good choice.

 

[SOTF420]

Words of wisdom! Selection, selection, selection.

 

[inquest]

Quote: I would think the overall diversity that the parents contained before you got them, and namely how good those selections were trait wise would be much more important than your 1/1 mating of them.


100%, spot on about selection! While I totally agree that each individual will only have its two parents, I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around this last part.... To my thinking, regardless of how many alleles of any particular gene/genes are present in the population, that set of parents will only carry four possible alleles (because of the two allele positions of each parent). That's only for one gene out of thousands! (maybe more! I never looked into how many genes this plant has....) Cutting the entire population down to two individuals would then limit your chances at getting all of the populations alleles for each particular gene thus raising your chances at losing diversity. So it really comes down to; Where do you want to lose diversity in your line?



Which is great for selecting a desirable trait, but if your not testing for every trait, you might inadvertantly select against a very desirable trait. Like mite resistance, for example. Testing/selecting for every wanted trait would really expand your breeding programs size and complexity! I'm maxed (grow space) selecting for just three traits! That's in only one line!



Henrik: I like your idea!
That's how the AKC combats inbreeding in their registered lines. I'd select the lines slighty different from one another although within a common "breed standard". I would select FOR vigor, and anything else that you want out of them. Hold back seeds from earlier generations. Backcross to these, or outcross if you start to develope any problems. Most of all, have fun! And, from what I've read, plants are far more forgiving about inbreeding than animals. So dont worry about it too much. Plus, you've got back up seeds, right?!

 

[Henrik]

Hei again and thanks for all the answears! Inquest, YES i have back up seeds! You are right this line is just going to be just for fun cause i all ready fucked up a little bit.

This season. Started perfect! in one spot i planted enough(!), not so much on another cause i was thinking sensimilla on that one with just a few seeded branches on the "good" plants. well with more rain then we have usually, animals og to legged animals that sabotage me. I found 11 seeds this season that i want to use in future breeding, might be a few more......

should never have germinated that many but what is done is done and i have around 20-40 backup seeds from the first generation that is viable.......

of course would continue only for the fun part, but im loosing my believe that this could be sustainable.....?

Thinking of germinated the backupseeds and make a lot of seeds indoors so i dont loose the line.......

Another story of the season: I made a cross a few years ago. indoors Diesel ryder X Mazar i sharif(freebies from seedboutique). planted around 50, got huge, nice stone altough not so potent but ok. this was a bit to late so got no seeds but manage to save a cutting! grew this indoors in the same time i was doin some other breeding. The cutting (indoors) got the fattest buds and most yield than all the others, very happy with it since i couldnt decide with which line I i wanted to cross and had no father from the same line. The cutting ended up with being crossed with 3 nice lines in 3 different ways.

I harvested the biggest beauty third week in sept, nice buds, nice trichom cover, smells good. All good Not tried yet, but curing now!

 

[SOTF420]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=4734625#post4734625

Here are some pics of a finished plant that was just from one seed grown by a tester from my 5th generation (IBL) inbred seeds of Sweet Tooth #4 that are based on my own selections over the generations now. These are the results and in many ways more reliable and predictable than the originals.

 

[inquest]

Beautiful plant SOTF and WestG! I also noticed, not a single curled up/eagle taloned leaf in sight. She's the picture of health.

 

[IE2KS_KUSH]

Ok, read the whole thread, don't understand shit, all this fancy book reading and your big fucking words, well I have words too that feel stuff sometimes too and.....
Anyway, I am a little thick, so maybe someone will be nice and hold my hand here...
So I got some beans, they were F1, (Coastal Collision). I popped them, got boys and girls, and crossed them together, (inbreeding them I think..)
So in simple terms, what the fack did I do? Currently have some of those beans now popped and the plants appear to be fine, time will tell I suppose. And I still have one of the original plants, (a clone taken from her) in my flower room now, I hope to reveg her after this. But what am I looking at here, what should I do next? I loved the original smoke, and my simple thinking was "make fucking seeds". I also threw some CC pollen onto a PPP that I didn't end up particularly caring for. I am no breeder, just interested in getting myself alot of good seeds. It sounds like I should expect some variety I guess? Is that correct? I guess I just want someone to tell me what the fuck I am really doing and if it's a good/bad thing, or maybe give me some advice as to what to do next as far as seed making..

 

[exploziv]

you made an F2 cross so you should expect more variation as genes recombine further than in the F1 cross you used.

 

[Aardwolf]

To breed plants efficiently you need to look at a chromosome level it seems otherwise you are just making seeds.

They may look and grow nice but they wont contain the minerals, Anyone know if they are using diploid or haploid P1's these days. Most seeds are poor these days due to people thinking they are a breeders, it has ruined the genome of proper cannabis!!!! Males are the most important part of the species there is always a stud male in everything this is needed to achieve homogamy or zygosity a pairing of alleles. Plants these days aren't even dioecious.

 

[Henrik]

After everything fucked a little bit up this season I have ended up with harvesting only viable seeds from one female two years i a row. The seeds have multiple males.

Now i have 14 plants indoors so i can safely make more seeds and have a lot backup after the one season ahead. If open pollinat indoors and outdoors is it possible to not end up with one bottle neck? really want to have this line/strain healthy or am i wasting time here?

 

[GrowbagUK]

Well, if you had a bad season due to climate conditions then mother nature has done some selection for you and your resulting population should be better adapted to your environment.

If the female from which you harvested seeds didn't hold any of the traits which you desire then it may be more difficult to uncover the genotype which is so appealing to you. But, with a big enough population and careful selection you should be able to find something to your taste.

I found this to be a useful guide. It seems 20 generations of full sibling matings is required to reach a fully inbred line.

http://isogenic.info/html/inbreeding___it_s_effects.html

If your parent stock is from an already IBL then you are unlikely to see inbreeding depression from just a couple of generations.

 

[oldbootz]

Hi all,

I have been reading Richard Dawkins, the greatest show on earth and he gets to this part about a russian experiment to domesticate foxes.

In the 40 generations where they select for flight distance (the closest distance you can get to the fox before it runs away), they managed to decrease this dramatically in the later generations. the foxes became much more approachable and social but another interesting thing happened. the foxes started to take on some dog like features. these features were not selected for but emerged over time. i wont go into too much detail here but what i wanted to relate to cannabis breeding is that there are certain attached clusters of genes that dont seem to separate too easily in genetic lines. the ones in the foxes were not expressed naturally in the wild so those dog like phenotypes were not found until the genotype was shaped by human selection.

for instance im busy breeding with a deep chunk / northern lights male and i have crossed him to about 40 different female clones. the deep chunk is very dominant and fat sturdy hybrid indica leaves are the result in most cases. there is a rich woody mahogany smell that goes with the fat leaves and the fatter the leaves on the hybrids the more dominant that smell becomes. before the thinner leaved plants finish i will already know that i can expect less of the deep chunk smell. these kind of things can help a breeder know what to select for at an early stage and many many more smaller plants can be selected through as a result. this kind of thing becomes very useful with the more subtle traits.

rule of thumb - if a seedling looks like a particular parent plant, most likely it will express many of the parent plants other traits too. just take the time to get to know which ones are most dominantly expressed. but this is mostly just common sense. but there are exceptions of course. just some food for thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

 

[shunzan]

Hi All

This is surprising and gratifying to see the enthusiasm for breeding in a few years ... The seeds are expensive, and many disappointed. The amateur breeding may be what will save the cannabis. Finally the best way to perpetuate the IBL is a maximum of passionate work the same variety, but each lineage. And when there is loss of vigor, there is exchange of seeds.

It would create an association, a seed bank in the image of Spanish cannabis social clubs for sinsemillia ... Except that, the fee allows access to a stock of landraces and IBL.
Do you know the association Kokopelli? They advocate for all free seeds! This is the Enemy of Monsanto. They market seed of old and traditional varieties, i can tell that IBL?
Their mode of operation could give us ideas!

Bye

 

[freeskierpj]

Too much to read right now but I'm definitely going to read this at some point so I just wanted to post so that later it will be in my list of threads under "My Posts".

 

[headband 707]

Damn THANK YOU for saying this I was wondering if anyone was ever going to pick up on this one..dah...of-course it will and plants are much like ppl.. inbreeding BAD>>>lol...This is why you need NEW genetic this is why you see genetic DRIFT!!!!! ,,,,, it's just the way of the world...

As far as there being an absolute well yes there actually is an absolute you just need to find it. There are things you can and can't do ie. screw your sister would be a bad idea. You can do it but does not mean that you would not see the problems.. It is this constant disreguard and throwing it al into the same narrow bottle neck that has brought us here.
Now don't get my wrong you can go ahead and screw your sister if you want but this does not mean that the offspring of this union will not suffer mutations .
It is already too late as we already have so many of these seeds floating around as it is. I understand the need to get the product out but it would be nice if this type of practice stopped for all involved imvho headband 707

 

[MrSterling]

Headband, your endless obsession with supposed "genetic drift" really undermines reasonable discussion about the topic.