Inbreeding.....the Skill of the Breeder.....

[GreenhouseBobby]

Your reply was perfect taz . I really have to have things explained simple . I'm a more of a see it and learn type of person . I'm pretty much playing at the moment but I just wanted a clearer understanding . I'm good at selecting so I thought il have a start at this . Thanks

 

[tazz11]

your welcome , I thought I had seen everything in 44 years till I ran into the Abducted strain ....the best breeders IMHO are the ones that never stop learning , and no two plants are ever the same ,in fact I had not killed a plant in like 15 years when I watched all 8 Abducted die one after another ...I have done soil for about 16 years and now I am doing Scrog in DWC ..never fear the unknown ,trying new things can only make you a better grower and breeder ..and a better human ...

some day someone may walk up to you and ask if you can grow a strain that will not grow for anyone else ,they were going to throw it away ...2 years 9 months latter its one of the rarest strains on earth ..

with risk comes reward or failure.
how much risk are you will to take ?
how much reward can you handle ?
failure is the path to learning !
how much are you willing to learn ?

only you have the answers ...

good luck

stay safe stay free

 

[GreenhouseBobby]

Great man taz . All I do is learn a and learn from any of my mistakes .
Practice and patients

 

[tazz11]

always have two lighters !

 

[tazz11]

I just got done with a back cross .. the skill is knowing how far to take it and the odds of getting what you want ...lol


I took male pollen found the best mate . then timed the breeding so I would have the off spring male a two stages for a span of 4 weeks of pollen two weeks for each male ,both off spring of the same strain ..then take the pollen at the same time in open pollination and pollenate the female of the host strain , and the female of the off spring ...this will give you both genders of both off spring and host strain ,so the out come is F1 ,F2 and back cross all in the same pollination ...it takes about 3 years to set it up this way but the results are well worth the efforts....


you can back cross with out completing a cubing ,


now if your off spring seed is reg then you will have both genders . but your host female should be in the grow when you make off spring this helps stage both off spring and host female to condition the host male pollen to the same environments ...this makes for a more stable strain ...in the case of Abducted I wanted to control the Native Thai back ground traits .. thus she is now a more pure isolated Vietnamese red , why ,, if you work on a pure strain you can always breed crosses to add to it but take something out of the past and you effect other traits as well . the true skill is balance and stabilization first in the grow environment and then the strains and plants within ... here is a simple test . set your standard grow up and grow a seed from 10 strains . next do the same thing again after you cut those , if your strains look the same you are on the right path to a higher skill level ...


out side vs inside conditions are always changing ,, the true skill is in working first hand and knowing how to control your environment ...,the truth is back crossing is a waste of time if you can not get the same outcome every time ...


this is just what made the Abducted strand so hard to grow out .. every time the environment changed the strain would reflect that change and it never look the same from one grow to the next ...


it took time to under stand the male reacted as a totally different strain base then the female .. odd but true .. so controlling both genders the same way did not work ,how did I get around that .. simple , save the pollen from the male and use it in the next run ,,.....that way male and female are not in the same grow at the same time ... now your thinking , why would you want them to be in the same grow .. timing keeps the male in a bag and let him go into pollen at the same rate and ratio as the female of the same strain base ..thus they both share the same environments ...


in cold temps this is a must ! each gender reacts different in cold temps ...thus if you don't correct this your back cross will show the variations...thus lack purity and stabilization traits ...


so look at the Abducted strain back cross now ... define the Vietnamese red and under stand the environments it grows best in and the strain will react to this and what dose it do best passes those stabilized traits on to its new crosses .. thus the back cross redefines the Vietnamese Sativa locked with in it ...we can not always remove those unwanted traits . but we can stabilize the traits we do want and select for the best stabilization of those unwanted traits so they do not react out of control within our off spring ..


so how do you control those unwanted traits . simple . the Abducted strain is a building block yet it is not without its issues ..thus the strain Crazy will remove the issues over time by filling those wholes with its good traits . see back crossing is a tool and how much you use it will be a matter of each grow and each strain and every plant within ...


so doing a back cross is only a tool in a path of perfection ...learn to use the tool for what it was design for and the hard work gets its rewards ....see controlling the Native Thai traits ..proved the strain was in fact a pure Vietnamese wide leaf sativa to start with ... not a native Thai .. you can not make it something it is not ..


what tools will you use in your next breeding op ...?


the more tools you have the more skills you will need to know when to use them and why ...

use the right tools for the job ...


stay save stay free

 

[Tonygreen]

Amen brother.

 

[tazz11]

you can back cross with out completing a cubing..


some of you may wonder what that means ...


I am talking about a open end cubing . male to female , making F1 genders and then back crossing to the host female , why, in the case of Abducted Native Thai back ground has a odd hermaphrodite trait to the male side of the genders .. thus lowing the odds of those traits showing up ,we don't want to delete them from the strain base .only control the % and how they react to stabilization ...


so we use host strain male pollen to start the cube yet we finish with the prime host female ...I found the best out come is slow and dose not over power your back cross ,,,the open end cube I think dose better then the full cube it self , it give the control to the breeder and not giving that control to the cycle of plant life ..


if you put the balance between both genders you get the back and forth gender fight , push /pull , this is what I found in the case of hit and miss factors as well ...


so your goal is to rise the host female traits % .. at the same time adding traits from a selected strain ,giving almost total control to the breeder ...we often find our self's trying to control female traits but no female can make reg seed within out male gender locked within it ...to hope to select traits is to hope to start with ...lol


I would like the % to be in the right direction first , I don't want to spend years growing one off spring to find that isolated trait ...this is the best way to find traits . control the environment and prefect your skills and tools . then as you grow from one grow to the next those traits will show up and you will have the tools and skills to define them ..


see as I stated above the back cross is a tool ,the skill is knowing how far to take it and how much will help and how to control the action and reaction of the cube in the traits of the off spring seeds ...cause and effect ..


don't limit the effects of your cube by adding unwanted male traits , this is why I started with the male in this case ...


so know we see the male gender cube and female gender cubes


open ended vs full cubing , the effects controlled by cause and effects on the traits of the off spring seed ..


in this case I have a full under standing of the host strait and secondary strain ,so adding male gender stabilization comes from the (SSSDH X G13), I then add the Abducted male pollen and define the secondary strain as (Abducted X SSSDH X G13) then I use the male of this secondary to pollenate back to the Abducted prime host female ...building a solid Abducted female trait with the added selected traits of the (SSSDH X G13) , now if I need to I can add more female traits as I work with the new cross ...knowing the selected and open cube host traits are there already ..not being controlled by unwanted male host traits ...

let me add ,the only time I feel a full cube is effective is when I see a phenol type trait I want to define and select for isolation in a new strain off spring branch ...this lets me stay within a given strain yet still give me control of that isolated phenol type ...so full cubing can help define a phenol type within a host strain with out adding unwanted secondary traits or losing host traits .

the glass maybe half full, the real trick is getting a full glass of what you want ...when you want it !

 

[Tonygreen]

I am glad I bumped into your posts tazz. I have been working some lines for several years just to get to a starting point I like for outcrossing for new lines to work.

 

[BAKED_BEANZ]

just catching up here . love logical approach .
subbed

 

[tazz11]

we are all learning as we work with the strains .. we just got schooled tonight by the Abducted strain again.. when we crossed the (Abducted X SSSDH X G13 ) X (Crazy) we run into something we have never seen before .. the seeds came in 3 different sizes ,, small ,very small, and whole SH**, tiny !


after the shock of seeing the smallest seeds I have ever seen . I started to size them up . the large seed are 1/2 or 3/6 of the size of a 188 BB , the second size is 1/3 or 2/6 the size of a 188 BB ..the tiny size is 1/6 the size of a 188 BB .. that is the smallest seed I have ever seen or herd of ...


the large seeds had a number of 82 seeds
the second size had a number of 69 seeds
the smallest size had a number of 48 seeds


not counting culls ..


. the ratio tells us these are 3 sizes of seeds produced by one pollination ...the smallest seeds measure just smaller then 1/16 wide by just smaller then 3/32 long .


other strains had large seeds then normal ...


so we believe we are looking at a pure sativa of Vietnamese back ground and this same strain never made small seeds before .. so we know it is caused by the Abducted strain base ....we will check the other Crazy to see if it did the same thing ...


cant wait to see what they look like .....

 

[tazz11]

finished up that seed culling , I don't count seeds , that many is enough this strain base cross.. I am going to do a test or two on them to see if there is any difference in off spring ...lol

 

[tazz11]

now back to back crossing ..


let me make it simple from my point view ..


open end cube is the best way to add with out inbreeding ...as soon as go beyond the open end , and close the cube your in fact inbreeding and you can do that much more effective with open pollination IMHO...


you maybe able to control the first cube ,but in respect to a phenol type but beyond that your just adding what is already there ...push pulling the genders is far more effective IMHO ..


in fact if you cube one gender and then cube the other your getting the same mix as open pollination within two generation ,so if you count on prime host and then off spring , your looking at 4 generations so how many generations dose it take to get IBL .. 7-8 ... that s why IMHO


I think 8 generation to stabilize a IBL ...4 generations to stabilize host traits then 4 to stabilize off spring traits ..I hope to prove this with the
(Abducted X SSSDH X G13) X (C99 in 7th generation ) its F1 seed should cast a stabilized Abducted X C99 F1 in 8th generation )


dominate male (Abducted ) dominate female (C99 in 8th gen )


(SSSDH X G13) back ground ...under tones ...taste and effects ...


now do you see the difference between back cross and cross ?


a super pineapple phenol in 8th gen ...a good male is only good if you use it to empower your female ...balance defines the out come ...

 

[tazz11]

I just noticed the high light for back crossing , it says ( "crossing of an off spring with one of the parents to reinforce a parental trait " )


sorry, but that's worded wrong


if I use a male parent pollen and make the off spring and then use a off spring male to pollenate a parent female . I can not reinforce what was never there to start with ...fact...

 

[tazz11]

4 days from now I will be shutting down my grow for the first time in 14 years ,,


the skill of the breeder ,knowing when your done ...


stay safe stay free

 

[tazz11]

I guess a lot of data about IBL is lost in the details of strains and the grow logs VS selling seeds ...so lets add something to the define inbreeding as a art ...


selecting a trait and using the same strain to define that is not quality Inbreeding .. that is in the most part selective breeding as far as I would believe ..
true inbreeding should be define by two standards ,


1. land race


2. open pollination


A. why you ask . land race being inbreeding by nature in a open environment and thus effected by the never ending changes of the weather ..and yes weather can effect the over all inbreeding of a land race strain base ,as well as location .


B. open pollination .


define in the modern grow room controlled environments ...a selective collection of pollen from a male and then a controlled pollination to a over all group of plants ..with the under standing that inbreeding is not completed in one life cycle of a give strain base as a true Inbreeding line should be taken out to 7th or 8th generation for stabilization...in a true IBL strain the highest quality is its stabilization.. stable unto it self . this is not to say there will never be variations , only that the variations that do show up are for the most part a common reflection of environmental changes or those cause by the breeders them self's ...




modern grow room open Pollination :


for those that wish to take inbreeding to the next stage , here is a throw together guide line for open pollination in a closed grow room environment .


1. you must first have a stable grow environment .


2, that same grow environment has to remain stable over 7-8 grows .


3.you must define what each plants environment will be as well as the over all effects of the grow it self on those strains as well as each plant of each strain ..


4 this is to say in multi strain grows , the common environment shared reflects different changes from one strain to the next ...


5. the breeder should first test a given strain base to check the qualities of their environment , if that breeder is smart he will use the main strain in his selected over all breeding goal .


6.the breeder should under stand that the art of true inbreeding in a closed grow room environment with multi strains is a lot of work and time and well reflect the breeders true skill level at all stages of development ..


7.your goal as a breeder most like will have very little control over the over all qualities of the strain base , so your selective choice is up most in selecting strain for development ..


8. the true Inbreed line will develop it self . and you are there for the most part to maintain the stabilization of the grow room and to observe the development of the strains and each of the plants ,for a better under standing of the strains with in the grow goal .the idea is that you will have little to no effect on any plant or strain from one generation to the next until the finish goal is reached .


9. the for most important cause of open pollination failure is the lack of labeling each plant strain from germination to harvest the out the cycle from starting point ,threw the 7-8 generations to your finishing goal ...


10. the over goal should reflect a stabilized strain base with little to no variations.. the breeder should be able to come and go from the environment with out causing any to no reaction ...


IMHO this is a over all guideline for inbreeding in the modern grow room ...with respect to the guideline the breeder should take into account the often Pheno type cast off from any given strain base and those phenol types should be collected for future study or refinement of select strain traits after the goal has been reached ... from S.O.G to the most complex multi grows there maybe no harder goal to reach for the modern indoor breeders then the true inbreeding line ..with the under standing that all grow environments are different and have their own effects on the plants and strains grown within a given grow room ...


you are the care giver to a Inbreeding line you have reach the highest skill level and the out come maybe poor or amazing ,its not up to you as the breeder ,selecting what you start with is your only hope ... ...lol

 

[tazz11]

Aloha!

Mahalo for da great post!

Aloha ! some of the best people I have ever meet were in Hawaii I was there 3 times and out right loved it each time .. great culture and they know how to party hard core ... a lot of the time it was more just being friendly then getting stoned ...my mentor lived on the big island for 12 years and ran a sugar plantation there .. I had a lot of people that knew her and were very friendly to me for being her friend , great people and always willing to help you if you show them the respect they show you ...


there are some great places in the world but Hawaii is one of the best IMHO ...

 

[tazz11]

I see a greed and scamming and Bs ripping people off ..power mongers... trolling . cheap shots at good people . ..I cant take this sh** .. the web sucks .. you can have it ...

 

[tazz11]

wow

 

[tazz11]

the 7 Abducted hybrids design for Cancer med weed strains ,....




1.(SSSDH X G13 X Abducted F1) X (SSSDH X G13 X Abducted F1) prime male to prime female ... AB - F2's

2.(SSSDH X G13 X Abducted F1) X (Abducted selected Prime female base strain ) Abducted open end back cross )..AB- F1's Backcross

3.(SSSDH X G13 X Abducted F1) X (C99 from Monster clone only Pheno #2 Hybrid F7) ( Abducted C13 in 8th gen )...ABC13-F1's

4. (SSSDH X G13 X Abducted F1 ) X (Crazy , early 1970's NL 2sd gen Hybrid from San Juan ,PR ) ...AB Crazy- F1's

5..(SSSDH X G13 X Abducted F1) X (Tangerine Dream 2 gen Hybrid ) ... AB/ TD- F1's

6.(SSSDH X G13 X Abducted F1 ) X ( Blue Dream 2 gen Humboldt Hybrid )...AB/BD- F1's

7. (SSSDH X G13 X Abducted F1) X (LSD 2 gen Hybrid)....AB/LSD-F1's






cure the world of Cancer !

 

[Tazz11]

update . the Abducted hybrid is now a stable IBL
(Abducted x SSSDH X G13 X Grimm Brothers C99 )
(Abducted 1399)


going on 8 years ... I have selected 2 mother out of the 9 ....the high ,smell and taste is why breeders like work 8-10 years on one given strain .....maybe a life time ... some of my best friends have past away and many of my family are gone . its just me and I work around the clock , night and day no longer matter to me .. the strains matter ... their my life and soon I wont be around to type any more .. so I say . it was worth every second ...the cannabis plant is much like any human . they go threw the stages of life the same as we do .. and when its their time their fate is already written in history .... its up to all of us to learn the skills and refine our abilities as we each learn the path of their fate and our own ....14 years of pictures ,every plant every grow ,every stage of their life cycle .. (Growing with them ).... I have been doing for the last 46 years of my life ...


you guys take care ...