I no longer believe Broad Mites cause DUDDING

[Bongstar420]

Erhemm...oops

Double post

...but here is this:

http://www.apsnet.org/publications/apsnetfeatures/Pages/Viroids.aspx

I can put sap from dud branch onto a wound on tomato to see what it does......though I'm not sure I have anything which is classic duding. If its root rot, I doubt I will see further development.

Hop stunt viroid (HSVd)

In fact, of 200 hop clones tested from the USDA-ARS National Clonal Germplasm Repository (NCGR; Corvallis, OR), 98 entries tested positive for one or more viruses, 50% of which tested positive for AHLV infection and 29% tested positive for ApMV infection, the two viruses that tested positive in the NMSU-ASC Farmington experimental plots (Postman et al., 2005). The USDA-ARS NCGR has since eliminated viruses from most of their Humulus collection through tissue culture methods (Postman et al., 2005).

I was in that lab during the start of the tissue culture program. Did greenhouse maintenance for them.

Also, I've scouted a few dozen hops yards at least 10 times. There are what you could call dud vines on the mound where a vine looks weak with very short nodes and extra branching...sometimes the dud vines are free of disease or insect for the most part.
I've seen at least half a dozen of virus like symptoms out in the fields...nothing gets away from spray too..ever

See the Sterling hop leaf. I know a field with that virus..its most of the field. The grower didn't care and said it does nothing even tough the vines look crappy.

This is something about the PNW and pot growers...the hops industry has established an enormous pool of disease.. PM anywhere around hops is atrocious unless you get a good microclimate and a resistant cultivar. We found PM in Nugget 2 years back. Nugget was grown for decade or better with 0 PM ever. I was in the field with the first documented case of PM on Nugget ever in history.

It may not be coincidental that hops get a stunt viriod. It shortens vines, causes branching/branch dieback, weakens plants, lowers flower weight, lowers essence output, causes lifecycle changes, and has a highly differential expression rate...finally it has low persistence in soil and is sporadically transmitted

 

[iTarzan]

Lots of good info to process bongstar. Having a similar plant like hops to harbor diseases really compounds trying to control things.

I hope super cold winters help in my area but the problems could persist indoors.

 

[Bongstar420]

Found this. Folk givin Storm Shadow guff were wrong...though I wish Storm would keep to himself more. Not because he is rude, but because he is undermining the ability of the intelligent and skilled to profit on their own as each copy cat of his sucks profit from the market they didn't earn or deserve.

Documented Phytoplasma in Cannabis:

http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/376/art%253A10.1007%252Fs12600-014-0438-x.pdf?originUrl=http%3A%2F%2Flink.springer.com%2Farticle%2F10.1007%2Fs12600-014-0438-x&token2=exp=1459208823~acl=%2Fstatic%2Fpdf%2F376%2Fart%25253A10.1007%25252Fs12600-014-0438-x.pdf%3ForiginUrl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Flink.springer.com%252Farticle%252F10.1007%252Fs12600-014-0438-x*~hmac=6f9716ff09ec01380f44921d018ce19bbbd035682a238c15d8211a4f67ab7b4c

You ask me, the big growers are perpetuating these conditions intentionally, or really anyone with a profit or price motive. Profit margins are higher when the competition and home grows fail more.

Somewhere I read Phytoplasma takes 100-200days to show. This is a perfect way for a grower to conduct biowar fare with the competition....they do this because they lack skill to win a fair fight.

If this dudding condition is indeed phytoplasma, I will have a diagnosis shortly as a certain class of naturally occurring chemicals available from your local pharmacy will cause remission of phytoplasma. I have fully dudded Strawberry Cough and a Glue cut that appears fully dudded now. I want viable seed of the Cough and Phyto can cause mostly blanks. I already failed to pollinate a Cough which was heavily effected though I got a Cleaner cut which was moderately effected now bustin fat beans.

Now, this may be phytoplasma, but I'm pretty sure I have at least 1 persistent rot pathogen as well as BM. I won't consider my grow BM free till I have BM free stock for at least 6 months and not one spray. Anyone doing less is not qualified.

What would your product look like with root -rot, broad mite, phytoplasma, fungus gnat, and root aphid? My elites are still in the 18-22% category. Doin a run now of cuts all made in an infested room....Looks like ACDC 18-22%, Glue 28-30%, Pennywise 20-24%. Not seeing much real problems. Controlling BM appears to be more important than hitting the phytoplasma angle. Maybe these are Erophid mites that pass phyto hitching rides on fungus gnats.. All I know is removing dud branches works pretty good. I have two plants which were 50-80% dudded not showing it anymore. Had to cut em back a lot tho.


The report I posted has two images of the condition. Its a good match for sure.

BTW, I deserve payment for this work. You don't deserve to profit or undermine my profits with it by putting product on the market that benefited from it. I'm just a nice guy and can't help my self. Growers think they can spray, not see anyting for a month or two, and call it good...um, thats how you "accidentally" spread these borg conditions

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

I ran a classically dudded tcpk for phytoplasmas. They ran pcr and sent to their microscopy lab. I used a federally accredited and funded lab who knew a lot more than both of us about phytoplasmas. They couldn't find any phytoplasmas, virus, or any other oddities. They only found a couple common root diseases. They said they weren't even thinking that those were responsible for the dudded state. Who the fuck knows. As to the rest of your theory.
No one is keeping duds around to intentionally spread em. This is beyond a Swiss cheese textured theory. I won't even bother because everyone reading this understands I'm sure.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

None of the chemicals from the drug store are a secret.
Aspirin, salysilic acid, chitosan, Epsom, not sure which you are referring to but these are all journaled and freely disseminated techniques that work. Ditch the bullshit as soon as you see it. No strain is worth it sticking around.
Good luck y'all. Don't forget heat treating your room as outlined by retrogrow and chitosan as storm and wt215 have outlined are very effective. If you hear treat routinely with other effective controls will eliminate bms over time. It will knock them back til you can harvest in mild cases of bms.

 

[_tessarecting]

As far as I know bms will dud your yield but I havent seen them cause dudding yet. Russets either. I had a super silver haze nug cola dud that I got from a dispensary, it was like hemp, disgusting to smoke with no psychoactive effect, and the other nugs were truly amazing stuff. Always wondered about it. Only time ive seen it.

 

[KONY]

...

You ask me, the big growers are perpetuating these conditions intentionally, or really anyone with a profit or price motive. Profit margins are higher when the competition and home grows fail more.

At first I thought this line of thinking was just paranoia, but now I am starting to believe it more. The 2 guys that passed me the original dudded genetics disappeared from online for nearly a year or so after, now they have popped back up.

I think the people that have figured out the solution are not freely publicizing it because of their poor morals/ the current legalization of cannabis. They have seen prices drop so much in the last 5 years, they are scared for their livelihood.

We are still experiencing dud symptoms, the problem hasnt gotten any worse, but hasnt gotten much better either. I strongly believe it's fusarium or some other sort of root pathogen. It definitely prefers certain strains, or maybe its some strains are easy to keep happy and resistant than others. Also the branches getting the most amount of light are most effected. If you look at a branch in the corner, side or under the canopy, it looks completely healthy, the other ones getting direct light yellow prematurely and throw excess hais.

We use chitosan regularly, aspirin weekly and have tried actinovate and mycostop root drenches. Have tried aloe too for an alternate source of systalic(sp) acid and for its other beneficial properties, but didnt really get a big enough sample for a proper experiment.

I will say our plants and veg are overall much healthier, and I am hoping if this continues on that track it mitigates the dud problem on its own. Last time I chopped that dudded guava plant, when I checked out the roots, they were pretty much non existent. The root zone and area smelled like healthy dirt, however there was barely any roots for the size of the container they were in.

is it brittle? how about where the stem of that branch meets the main-stem, where in relationship to the soil is it? What does that intersection look like? is it swollen?

The dud branches look exactly the same as healthy branches.

 

[FoothillFarming]

Dudding is multiple viruses. BM's or russets spread said viruses. Mystery solved.

 

[KONY]

Dudding is multiple viruses. BM's or russets spread said viruses. Mystery solved.

Alright there scooby doo, if its so simple; how does one prevent/cure these viruses.

 

[Weird]

depends on the virus some are systemic and cannot be eradicated, some can

 

[Ez Rider]

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=60673&pictureid=1425520&thumb=1]View Image[/url] GG4
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=59763&pictureid=1402312&thumb=1]View Image[/url] Triple Diesel

Broad mites are the #1 cause of dudding. Getting rid of them entirely is a dream. It becomes a preventative situation every run. And I am very careful. Once they are in. ya better control them. But complete eradication ain't gonna happen.

Sooooo many peoples' gardens are suffering around here, and people blame it on the genetics (in the case of the gorilla glue clone, i.e - tossing a certain percentage of flowering plants every run) or specific nutrients such as Gravity.

Ignore BM/Cyclamen/Russet Mites at your peril. After 70 indoor runs, and 8 years of greenies in Nor Cal, they wiped me out. And they are here in the Midwest MMJ state I reside in now, as well. Big Time.

The recovery from the BM's was difficult, expensive, and infuriating.

I tossed ALL plant matter, treated the ENTIRE place and all the grow accessories with with 120F+ temps several times over the course of a few days, then restarted from seed after a few weeks. It helped that it was ~110F outside at the time. I sprayed the young plants with avid and forbid a few times early on. This was ~2years ago, and I haven't seen a broadmite, or any symptoms of them since. They simply cannot survive extreme temps, especially heat.

Broadmites are filthy little beasts, no doubt. However, in my experience, they can be gotten rid of if you invest some time, money, and effort. Once they're gone, don't bring in anything you didn't start from seed, and don't have other growers around your grow. YMMV.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

its really easy to get rid of bms. stasis has had it eternally. threres a reason. hes a fuck up. you people should ask the people who were on the bm threads, asked for help and never returned. lol./ not the frequent flyer on the thread

 

[oceangrownkush]

Wow.. For anyone still suffering from BM here is a tried and true kill em all method;

0. Toss all flowering plants
1. Drench rootzone in Kontos (1ml per gallon)
2. Drench all (veg) foliage with ic3 essentria oil (15ml per gallon) every 3 days
3. After a few weeks just spray ic3 once a week in veg and they won't come back. Rotate with neem, always add silica product to foliars.

 

[2ppl]

Just harvested 6 gg4, all duds.....not a single nug of decent quality. I ran this with a fake cut of wifi in the same room. Some fuker sold me some fake cuts of wifi, tho I did pull 2.3 lbs /1kw vendable @2100 per lb,so I can't be too upset. The gg4 had all the symptoms in veg; slow growth/vigor, woody stems that snaps off easily, and small fan leaves, extremely tight internode spacing. Same typical occurrence with the other duds that others in this site are sharing. It didn't show signs of dud in flower until the 4-5th week. The internode spacing was ridiculously tight during flowering also, I thought these little runts might be keeper after all. Then bam, the nugs stopped filling in and just started to larf out , thc production came to an halt. I thought it didn't like being defoliated and my fake wifi did, and just called it a lost on growers error.
Reason why I thought it was the defoliation that caused the dudding was because my buddy also ran 8 gg4 , which he got his cut from a different source, had 6 that dudded(which he defoliated) , and 2 that came out 5oz per plant,5 weeks veg, 5 gallon pots in coco( didn't defoliate cuz it was out of reach in the back of his setup). now I know it's not the defoliating that caused this super larfing duds. Of the 42 fake wifi I had, one plant had some dud branches, very minimal. I have 24 gg4 clones in week 4 of veg, about to be flipped, that's all going to the trash, they are from the same batch that dudded. Well, at least I don't have to go thru another 8-9 weeks , and cut my losses. Thanks ss, grey, Tarzan, and others that I didn't mention for the extremely helpful info. Much appreciated!
My buddy grew some wifi the last round and his room was infected with broad mites at week 6 of flip and he still was able to pull 2lb per 1kw of top shelf product....so maybe bm later in the flowering stage doesn't change the game much.

 

[Bongstar420]

At first I thought this line of thinking was just paranoia, but now I am starting to believe it more. The 2 guys that passed me the original dudded genetics disappeared from online for nearly a year or so after, now they have popped back up.

I think the people that have figured out the solution are not freely publicizing it because of their poor morals/ the current legalization of cannabis. They have seen prices drop so much in the last 5 years, they are scared for their livelihood.

We are still experiencing dud symptoms, the problem hasnt gotten any worse, but hasnt gotten much better either. I strongly believe it's fusarium or some other sort of root pathogen. It definitely prefers certain strains, or maybe its some strains are easy to keep happy and resistant than others. Also the branches getting the most amount of light are most effected. If you look at a branch in the corner, side or under the canopy, it looks completely healthy, the other ones getting direct light yellow prematurely and throw excess hais.

We use chitosan regularly, aspirin weekly and have tried actinovate and mycostop root drenches. Have tried aloe too for an alternate source of systalic(sp) acid and for its other beneficial properties, but didnt really get a big enough sample for a proper experiment.

I will say our plants and veg are overall much healthier, and I am hoping if this continues on that track it mitigates the dud problem on its own. Last time I chopped that dudded guava plant, when I checked out the roots, they were pretty much non existent. The root zone and area smelled like healthy dirt, however there was barely any roots for the size of the container they were in.



The dud branches look exactly the same as healthy branches.

I've diagnosed and implemented treatment for full duds....I've reverted fully dudded clone and am also doing it the larger mother. Established plants are much more difficult to de-deud than cuts...cuts off a dud probably revert faster granted you can get past the extremely poor rooting capacity that is typical of a dud.

You want good pot or $, you can figure it out on your own.

Poor morals is giving hand outs to lazy dumbasses that pollute the world with their poor abilities and wealth.

You have to understand that a free for all will strangle the development of deserving up and comers in this industry...it will solidify the current establishments strangle on the industry both white and black markets.

People that cannot figure solutions on their own do not deserve more wealth than those that can.

Chitosan is not the best option and eventually produces no effect after a couple generations of dudathon. Keep at it. The answers are out there. Cannagraphic has enough clues to lead you to the solution thouth google if you deserve to profit from pot. Your protocol is half effective and will slowly fail if you keep propagating the same material or allow any recycling (hint hint). I have already exhausted this protocol and nearly lost several cuts under it. Fortunately, I figured out things correct now and have reverted dudding that failed to respond to treatment described like KONY

....and FYI< the solution would be dangerous if used by masses of average growers as it would cause the problem to become unsolvable. Its similar to how Cannabis growers have created pests which are far more difficult to control than generic field versions. If the Cannabis community were competent, people like us would never have picked up dudding or really much of anything from buying clones.

Here is a freebie:

Its not a virus or a viroid nor is is a "toxin"

I am still harvesting +20% with all plants effected by the condition....though, if I didn't have a solution, my entire grow would all be crap this next round. I figure its about 6 months from infection to grow failure under a rigorous control program that does not fully implement the proper solution correctly. My opinion is that this condition is escalating in the industry due to the low bar nature of pot growers and retailers.

 

[KONY]

...
..
.

Cool story bro!

Some people are here because their main passion in life is cannabis. Other people are here because their main passion in life is money and things. Which category do you fall into?

On a more serious note. I've realized our state college does testing for Garlic bloat nematode in soil for 20 bucks. Gonna get a sample out tomorrow.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

Cool story bro!

Some people are here because their main passion in life is cannabis. Other people are here because their main passion in life is money and things. Which category do you fall into?

On a more serious note. I've realized our state college does testing for Garlic bloat nematode in soil for 20 bucks. Gonna get a sample out tomorrow.

youll find it at a regular extension service for just about any pest or pathogen. tell them you grow hops. hence the year round root samples.

if you go back through the threads youll see where i took one in and got it tested. it had some root pathogens present. i didnt get a good sample in for nematodes but they tested for the ones storm and wt215 were seeing, they believed they were ditylenchus dipsacii.
theres others to look for send to a place with a nematology lab they can outsource to if thats what you think. keep your root zone healthy and cull duds and ill performing cuts. always take way more than you need and throw away duds.

utilize good health practices and youll be fine. if it duds over and over get rid of it. theres a million bad ass cuts out there. if it seems like its spreading you are likely seeing a root pathogen take over opportunistically as plant health declines and spills around your room with spores. most plants will be fine once you contain it.

it aint good to keep sick plants around. even if a particular disease cant spread it can develop another and cause a bloom of something that wouldnt normally get to fruit out.

 

[KONY]

youll find it at a regular extension service for just about any pest or pathogen. tell them you grow hops. hence the year round root samples.

if you go back through the threads youll see where i took one in and got it tested. it had some root pathogens present. i didnt get a good sample in for nematodes but they tested for the ones storm and wt215 were seeing, they believed they were ditylenchus dipsacii.
theres others to look for send to a place with a nematology lab they can outsource to if thats what you think. keep your root zone healthy and cull duds and ill performing cuts. always take way more than you need and throw away duds.

utilize good health practices and youll be fine. if it duds over and over get rid of it. theres a million bad ass cuts out there. if it seems like its spreading you are likely seeing a root pathogen take over opportunistically as plant health declines and spills around your room with spores. most plants will be fine once you contain it.

it aint good to keep sick plants around. even if a particular disease cant spread it can develop another and cause a bloom of something that wouldnt normally get to fruit out.

For some reason our county extensions are very limited, I assume funding. No water testing for example.... The garlic bloat nematode testing is thru the county extension but done with the state college also.

We have the type of duding that lets plants veg and flower normal the first 4-5 weeks, then they start yellowing prematurely, and stop developing trichs and terps... however with chitosan and aspirin and aloe, been able to control the problem and still harvest flowers that make %15 oil and are smokable by themselves, just dont have as much terps or trichs, not hay as they have been in the past, but not nearly what the strain is capable of.

This is okay but I really love puffing flowers, so is not a viable longer term solution. I should mention even if very happy normal flowers, this strain doesnt do over 20% oil return, normally 18.

We have been culling lower performing plants in veg, and trying to ID the plants before flower, but after reading I believe thats a different type of dud that we dont have. The witches broom type dud produces branch that are very brittle and snap easy..... we do not have that problem even though have gotten some witches brooming and abnormally short node distance/vine like growth.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

low bar nature of pot growers and retailers.

this guy again. put up or shut up. if you are able to do this document it. share the info or bounce fool no one cares how cool you think yyou are. and most of us that are really doing this think you sound like a fool and a liar. please prove us wrong.
at any rate. anyone wasting time reading this drivel should know he is a
self important blow hard. he is better than us and the only info hell give up for free on a site made for that purpose alone............hes better than us and the ever evolving story of sharing seeds and culture methods that has shaped mankind stops now with cannabis.

fuck all this human centered sharing shit. growing plants for medicine recreation and food, cultivating information through sharing, is all over now.

now is the part of human evolution where we now shroud our discoveries we have learned building on info shared with us, in a braggards ego and value it as only a way to source capital.
when others ask how we do it, we simply should reply...

"fuck you, pay me!!!"

my guess is this guy is doing this with no real horticultural training and a greed that keeps him having to isolate himself.

the industry is growing up buddy. real horticulturally trained pros do this better than you. the info is free online and its only getting started. growing cannabis is no longer the short path to wealth it used to be. the knowledge of how to do it has been being passed long before you entered the scene.

if you loathe advances in cannabis made by sharing info then why are you on a site who's sole purpose is that alone?

just curious.

 

[2ppl]

One thing I noticed on my gg4 duds was that there were splitting in the main stems and side stems/branches. I didn't take any pics, but my buddy has a whole room of the gg4 that's in week 4 of flower , that I previously mentioned had 6 duds and 2 big producers which he cloned off of. I'll try to post a pic up when I go over his pad in the next few days.

Let me try to describe it as best as I can. It's kinda like the plant is growing at such a fast pace that it rips out of its " bark". It looks kinda like a gash, that is roughly 1/8th of an inch wide and can be up to an inch in length. It occurs mostly on the lower half of the branches and stems. The splitting gashes starts out in veg. Anyone else has this going on? I'll try to post a pic up soon.