hydrogen peroxide?

[hoosierdaddy]

AH, but the more research you do, the more your tone is changing, Whatever.

 

[Whatever]

A problem I still and have always had is people using it and recommending it a levels where they really have no idea what they are doing to the soil biology and ORP levels other than anecdotal reports of 'I don't see any plant stress' or 'They look better', etc. I still think some soil growers find H2O2 a beneficial addition cause something else is a bit out of whack like soil structure, over watering, etc. I think higher concentrations may damage root hairs as Badmf suggested and that's actually a pretty easy test with something like a DWC grow cause you can cut some roots off, look at under a scope, then soak in various concentrations of H2O2 but this test would be a bit more difficult for working with soil roots.

A breeder friend uses a microscope for soil culture analysis in part cause he's a researcher and is driven to get this organic soil thing nailed down but is also writing a book so part of his 'work'. He said there is a noticeable negative impact on the bacterial culture in teas when adding just a small amount of H2O2. This confirmed my belief that H2O2 does have a direct affect on living microorganisms and it's the concentration of H2O2 that determines the strength and duration of that effect. He also said that pH adjustments of teas after they are bubbled is a no-no because it creates a change in osmotic pressure that can actually kill bacteria.

but if I understand correctly this O2 drops quickly as you are only getting up to 8ppm of DO max at temps in the 70's

Pretty sure you can get the DO level higher than that at that temp but requires and insane amount of air flow through the water enough to the point where it would probably be detrimental to the microbeasties...just like using something like a sprayer/mister due to the pressure and shearing.

 

[MrFista]

Hey this is a controversial topic huh, it's a very interesting one too.

If H202 is present in rainwater, what is the level? I did not catch this information sorry. Are there differing levels in rainwater? More over the mountains, or more over the oceans? I'm guessing it's according to the barometic pressure?

I had assumed rain bringing colder temperatures and less direct light slowed down cyanobacteria -not H202! Shows how little I know. Perhaps a little of all 3.

Grazing, that's what I see the role of H202 in nature as being. In biofilms in ponds (yes here I go again with aquaculture) snails fish and many invertebrates graze the biofilm allowing for further speciation, recycling, and growth. This is a healthy thing (when in healthy balance). When temps warm and no rain for some time things do tend to get out of whack in many waterbodies. I've seen nice clean lakes turn to shite, not just the ones polluted from runoff. Those Chinese rainmakers might just be the solution to algal blooms in built up tourism areas.

My take on all of this in relation to growing organically is similar to others - worth investigating, proceed with caution.

Grazing of the biofilm in dirt - or microherd.... is a niche already accounted for. I suspect those soils reacting to H202 significantly may be short on worms and protozoa.

Now, I swear by rainwater over tap, and if H202 is a part of this then it is surely worth investigating the same/similar ratios as rainwater holds added to non-rain water sources.

Another interesting tidbit, for me anyways, Compost Tea is said to be best applied in the rain. how does the knowledge of H202's presense in the rain affect this recommendation.

A previously unknown benefit?
A hindrance to the end result?

Always with the questions, me.

 

[Whatever]

Only thing I can tell ya is the H2O2 concentration of general rainwater is measured in micro moles...which is pretty small but still has a measurable effect but the more rainwater that falls the more H2O2 gets deposited...sounds like Spring and late season to me. Here's one link, not the study I stumbled across though, that will provide a bit of assistance. In this study the H2O2 concentration in rainwater was measured at .135 to .483 micro moles. It references the chlorophyll a content which is the chlorophyll content generated by water surface alga. Do more research and you'll see that max H2O2 content in rainwater is generated from that which falls from thunderstorms...which lightning is the culprit here...ozone...which is O3. So some areas get nice blasts of H2O2 from thunderstorms in the summer.

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/178/m178p145.pdf.

But...also there is nitrogen oxide NOx production in lightning storms.

Anyway...

 

[CoonLover]

Hydrogen Peroxide and Horticulture
By Bryce Fredrickson

Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) is a clear sharp smelling substance very similar in appearance to water (H2O). Like water it is made up of Hydrogen (H2) and Oxygen (O2), however H2O2 has an extra Oxygen atom in an unstable arrangement. It is this extra atom that gives H2O2 its useful properties. H2O2 has been used for many purposes including cleaning, bleaching, sterilizing, rocket fuel, animal feed treatment and in addition many miraculous claims about its health benefits have been made. This article isn't about any of these; instead it will concentrate on horticultural applications. H2O2 is of great use for both hydroponics and dirt/soilless gardening.

What Does Hydrogen Peroxide do?
H2O2 is an unstable molecule, when it breaks down a single oxygen atom and a molecule of water is released. This oxygen atom is extremely reactive and will attach itself to either another O- atom forming a stable Oxygen molecule or attack a nearby organic molecule. Both the stable and O- forms will increase the level of dissolved oxygen. This is the method by which H2O2 is beneficial. Pre treating the water supply with H2O2will drive out the Chlorine many cities use to sterilize it. This will also degrade any pesticides or herbicides that might be present as well as any other organic matter. Well water can be high in methane and organic sulfates, both of which H2O2 will remove. Many disease causing organisms and spores are killed by Oxygen, the free Oxygen H2O2 releases is extremely effective at this. H2O2 will help eliminate existing infections and will help prevent future ones. It is also useful for suppressing algae growth. The free Oxygen atom will destroy dead organic material (i.e, leaves roots) in the system preventing them from rotting and spreading diseases.

Over Watering
Roots require Oxygen to breathe and low levels are the main cause of almost all root diseases. Both soil and hydroponic plants often fall prey to the same syndrome although it is rarely recognized as what it really is. Hydroponic crops often fail due to "root rot" and soil crops succumb to "over watering." The real cause of both these problems is a shortage of Oxygen at the root zone. In a soil system the soil consists of particles, a film of water on the particles and air spaces between the particles. When too much water is put into the soil the air spaces fill with liquid. The roots will quickly use up what Oxygen is dissolved in the water, if they haven't drunk enough of the liquid to allow air back in to the soil spaces they will stop working. In this situation roots will start dying within twenty-four hours. As the roots die the plants ability to drink water and nutrients will decrease, this will cause symptoms of nutrient deficiencies (mostly pale, slow, weak growth), and strangely they will start to wilt like they don't have enough water. It is easy to make a fatal mistake at this point and add more water.

In a Hydroponic system the cause is a more direct simple lack of oxygen in the solution; this may be from inadequate circulation and/or aeration. High reservoir temperatures also interfere with Oxygen's ability to dissolve in the water. Temperatures above 70F (20C) will eventually cause problems, 62F-65F (16C-18C) is recommended. The same symptoms will appear as with soil plants but you can also check the roots. Healthy roots should be mostly white with maybe a slight yellowish tan tinge. If they are a brownish color with dead tips or they easily pull away there is at least the beginning of a serious problem. An organic, ‘dirt like’ rotting smell means there is already a very good chance it is too late. As roots die and rot they eat Oxygen out of the water, as Oxygen levels are even further depleted more roots die, a viscous circle may be well under way. Reduced Oxygen levels and high temperatures both encourage anaerobic bacteria and fungi. The plants may still be saved but you will have to work fast.

How Hydrogen Peroxide prevents root rot/over watering.
When plants are watered with H2O2 it will break down and release Oxygen into the area around the roots. This helps stop the Oxygen from being depleted in the water filled air spaces until air can get back into them. High Oxygen levels at the roots will encourage rapid healthy root growth. In a Hydroponic system H2O2 will disperse through out the system and raise Oxygen levels as it breaks down. Strong white healthy roots with lots of fuzzy new growth will be visible. This fuzzy growth has massive surface area allowing for rapid absorption of the huge amounts of water and nutrients needed for rapid top growth. A healthy plant starts with a healthy root system.

How to use it.
H2O2 comes in several different strengths 3%, 5%, 8% and 35%, also sold as food grade Hydrogen Peroxide. The most economical is 35% which we recommend be diluted to three percent before using, as at this high concentration it can cause damage to skin and clothing. When working with food grade H2O2 it is very important that you clean up any spills or splashes immediately, it will damage almost anything very quickly. This is extra important with skin and clothing. Skin will be temporarily bleached pure white if not washed cleaned. Gloves are strongly recommended when working with any strong chemical.

Food grade H2O2 can be diluted to three percent by mixing it one part to eleven parts water (preferably distilled). The storage container should be opaque to prevent light from getting in and it must be able to hold some pressure. If three-liter pop bottles are available in your area they are ideal for mixing and storing H2O2. There are twelve quarter liters (250ml) in three liters, if you put in one quarter liter H2O2 and eleven quarter liters (250ml) water in the bottle it will full of three percent H2O2 and the bottle can hold the pressure that the H2O2 will generate. Three percent Hydrogen Peroxide may be added at up to three ml's per liter (2 1\2 tsp. Per gallon), but it is recommended that you start at a lower concentration and increase to full strength over a few weeks. Use every watering even on fresh cuttings. For hydroponics use every reservoir change and replace twenty-five percent (one quarter) every day. Example: In a 100L reservoir you would add three hundred ml's (3%) H2O2when changing the nutrient. You would then add seventy-five ml's more every day.

Where to get it.
35% food grade: called food grade because it has no toxic impurities. Of course your local hydroponics retailer, whom you can locate over the web.(there may be shipping restrictions on high strength peroxides). The local feed supplier may have it in small towns. Prices range from fifteen dollars per quarter liter to eighty dollars a gallon. One gallon will treat up to fifty thousand liters of water.

3%5%, 8% Can be found at most drugstores or pharmacies, prices start at a less than a dollar for a one hundred-ml bottle that will treat one hundred liters.

What to do if you already have root rot.

In Dirt:
Use peroxide water with an anti-fungicide and a high Phosphate fertilizer (9-45-15, 10-52-10, 0-60-0) for root growth. Or any other product with rooting hormone dissolved in it is helpful in regrowing roots and is strongly recommended. Water heavily until liquid pours out the bottom of the pot. This sound like bad idea, but it flushes out stagnant dead water and replaces it with fresh highly oxygenated water. Don't let plants sit in trays full of water, the soil will absorb this water and stay too wet. Don't water again until the pot feels light and the top inch or two of the soil are dry.

In Hydro:
Change your nutrients. Add H2O2 to the system. This will add oxygen and chemically eat dead roots. If roots are badly rotted and can be pulled away by hand you should pull them off. They are already dead and will only rot, causing further problems. Add a fungicide to kill any fungus that is probably present in the rotted tissue to prevent it from spreading. Increase aeration of the water, get an air pump and air stones, or more of them, for the reservoir. An air stone under every plant is usually very effective, but will require a larger air pump. Models that will do from forty to four hundred stones are available. Decrease the reservoir temperature, oxygen dissolves better in cold water and disease causing organisms reproduce slower as well. A good temperate range is 62F to 65F; anything above 70F will eventually cause a problem. It is also a good idea to remove any wilty plants from the system and put them on a separate reservoir so they don't infect plants that are still healthy.

Summary
The key to big productive plants is a big healthy root system and Hydrogen Peroxide is a great way to keep your roots healthy. It is a must to ensure the biggest best crops possible and to increase the chances of your plants thriving to harvest. Peroxide users will rarely lose plants or crops to root disease and will harvest larger and more consistent crops.

...

 

[maryjohn]

AH, but the more research you do, the more your tone is changing, Whatever.

one would hope that people come here to grow, not just stake out a position and stick to it no matter what. you should applaud his evolution and try to keep your mind as open as his.

One thing I would like to know about is the purpose of O2 at the root level. Does it merely prevent root rot, or does it figure in the uptake of nutrients? I was under the impression my roots need "air" not "oxygen". As in, they don't like wet feet.

 

[Microbeman]

Hello everyone,

What happened to the other thread on this subject? It is unfortunate they are not consolidated to assist someone running a search.

Suby; Good to hear from you.

Hoosierdaddy: I will attempt to squeeze in a small test, exposing living microbes to a diluted solution of H2O2. I have 35% stuff here which I often dilute down to 3%. I assume it is 3% which you are touting? What dilution should I use? Skimming through this 'new' thread I saw
"1-4 oz per gallon, 1-2 oz per gallon and 29 ml/gallon" as well as something per quart. I'll await your recommendation.

Also, once I have my dilution, I plan to just drop it into a slide of live microbes being videoed but I also need to add it to a solution with a live consortia and then transfer this to a slide to compare to a control solution with a live consortia. Now here is where it can get complex. Do I add 1% of the H2O2 dilution or 50% to the live consortia? One could have minimal effects, will the other could have radical effects. I do not presently have the time to test a range. I hope you understand the question.

BTW, the action of bleach (oxidizer) is very similar to H2O2
Perhaps you should run your experiments with it. It's cheaper. <grin>

Also: Do you believe what you have stated here?
"And if one is trying to save a crop, who cares about the silly organic aspect of things anyway?"

You do understand that organics is a system and not a description of inputs??? You do understand that organic compounds are not uptaken by plants and therefore you do not feed plants and the 'dialing in of nutrients' is a myth? (at least until someone shows otherwise)

Microbeman

 

[GET MO]

I used a small amount of h202 in my last watering, got someyoung plants in a basement and havent quite got my airflow or dehumidifier right so they having some oxygen issues to the roots I believe. Put about 4-5 tablespoons of 3% in a gallon of water. Something I did before watering and didnt think about it after is add a small amount of baking soda to the mix to ph up. After watering the plants I thought about it, and remembered that h202 and baking soda create co2. What yall think this will do? I know plants like co2, but they absorb it through the leaves from my understanding… will report back shortly.

 

[Ca++]

Many water companies use h2o2 in water purification. It's not unusual to see over 100ppm coming out the tap. A fairly high level for hydro users. A more typical target for water, is 30ppm. Something like 10ml of 3% per gallon. Though excuse me for mixing my metric and imperial, but I'm hitting on google to check my memory. Not actually doing the math.

This is really high, beside tap like oxygenation. Oxygen loving species love it. Things like our plants, and the microlife organic people think it will kill. Least that is what I found, at double that and beyond.

It's odd to think 30ppm is a party to water purification along long pipework. While I'm finding it helpful in dirt. I often hear bad bacteria are generally the anaerobic ones. It's why we must keep up oxygen levels in dwc. Perhaps 30ppm is knocking back these bad ones that don't like oxygen, while helping what we do want. It's just an idea, to explain why I couldn't kill my soil when I tried.

I'm not sure I would use 3% as it's not just h2o2. It has a smell to it. Many of us would be buying 35%. Though in some places it's controlled, and getting over 12% is difficult. Which I will readily use at 3ml/l for most tasks.

This h2o2 in tap has never caught anyone's attention. In theory an area where unexplained iron deficiency in plants could indicate h2o2 in the supply. Test strips must be cheap, as I have some but it's really a non-starter.

 

[Old Piney]

I use regular medicine cabinet 3 percent solution at a half teaspoon to one cup a water as a seed soak regularly. I really helps with gemination by adding extra oxygen

 

[GET MO]

I use regular medicine cabinet 3 percent solution at a half teaspoon to one cup a water as a seed soak regularly. I really helps with gemination by adding extra oxygen

Yeah been doin this for years, couple drops in my lil 1/4-1/3 cups, keeps mold n wutnot away.