hydrogen peroxide?

[BurnOne]

pacificgrower-
I'll clean it up.
Burn1

 

[prolificgrower]

much thanks burn1

 

[hoosierdaddy]

prolificgrower, you can safely use H2o2 in a dilution of 1-2oz (29ml)/gal for every feeding.
For problems with root rot, you can use anywhere from 4-8oz per gal. I have done so many times in the past.
3% H2o2 is very benign at these concentrations, and where folks get into trouble is using similar ratios with grow shop h2o2, which comes anywhere from 6%-19%.
Screw up and spill some 3% and you will not hurt anything at all. Spill some 15% and you can kill a grow fast.

These guys on a campaign to warn folks against using H2o2 simply do not know what they are talking about. Nor do they have any evidence that would support their assertions. They are parroting what they read on the internet, nothing more. And that is obvious from some of the ridiculous claims, such as H2o2 will kill any cell material it comes in contact with, etc...ridiculous BS.
And the subject can be easily discussed and disected in a civil manner, IF those involved will realise that they are doing nothing but providing opinion, and then fighting about it as if it were fact.
Deleting your own threads because you get mad...moderators stepping beyond their bounds and deleting peoples posts that disagree with them...what a bunch of childish hogwash.

 

[B.C.]

I've used H2O2 in industry to kill living organisms in water chillers. Not only did it kill the hell out of it, it disintegrated it so it was removed from the heat exchanger tubes. It may be good for synthetic growing but I'd steer clear of it in a living medium like ours.
Why do you think they sell it in first aid aisle of the drug store? Antibiotic ring a bell?
Burn1

Was it industrial strength h202, B1? also, useing regular 3% h202 on a cut is not the same way yud use it for plants. You wouldn't take a whole bottle of asprin when yer head hurts, that would kill ya! But 2 at a time will do ya a world of good. I used ta be one of those that thought h202 would kill all the bacteria, but after some research, I don't think that anymore. Perhaps someone like CT or Microbeman could check it out with a microscope *once and for all* and see how much it does take ta kill everything in the soil. I know many folks would like ta know fersure, me included! Take care... BC

 

[minds_I]

Hello all,

It would seem others have found interest:

Though there is no discussion of the mircokiddies....

http://www.myenki.com/media/Research_ResultsUM.pdf

minds_I

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Those oxygenating water pots have been around for a bit. They usually turn people away as some sort of miracle Ronco type gadget, but in reality they do what they are sold to do. Which is increase the dissolved oxygen level of water by about 50%.
I have seen tests, although I am not able to find evidence of them, that also shows these pots can indeed increase the DO level by ~50%, and in the same tests H2o2 was able to increase the water's DO by ~150%. Like I said, I haven't found the study I am thinking of yet, but I think I remember the concentration of h2o2 was like in the 30-60ml per gal range.

H2o2 is an organically produced fluid. It is 100% safe to use in prescribed levels. What are those you ask? Well, all one needs to do is buy a bottle of hyro store h2o2 (funny how this stuff is sold in mass quantity in each and every hydro store) and check the prescribed levels. Then make the corrections from the concentration of that item, and the concentration of the solution you have...in my case it is always 3%. A little math will show you what that particular company that is providing the stuff recommends. Which should be differing levels for different situations.

They don't mention the microherd in this study, because it is a moot point. H2o2 killing any cell it comes in contact with is just internet BS spread around like so much athletes foot. Oxygenates like H2o2 feed the aerobic bacteria of the medium. They thrive on oxygen, and that is exactly what H2o2 provides.
Anaerobic bacterium are the only bacteria that are destroyed immediately in the presence of h2o2, and we want ALL anaerobic bacterium gone. (dayem, that is going to bring about argument as well)

Now, I am one that feels that the plant can survive even in the presence of high anaerobic bacteria count...as I have seen them live in these stinky, rotting types of enviros. But one thing is for certain, too high an anaerobic count and it cannot survive. Another thing is for certain...is that if you do NOT use h2o2, there will be anaerobic organisms within your soil.

And another thing...when we go to the hydo store and ask for something that will help with a root problem, it may not say it on the label, but chances are you are going to be sold straight H2o2 with a fancy name.

 

[Suby]

MI I checked out that website, the product looks good.
I sent an e-mail for pricing, I think the idea behind it makes sense.
If it's not too pricey I will try one

So far I don't think there is sufficient evidence for or against hydrogen peroxyde in an organic soil medium.
Personnally I think if peeps spent half as much time worrying about soil content/porosity and water quality the addition of oxygen via hydrogen peroxyde would not seem very significant.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

They cost $80 usd
http://www.cleanairgardening.com/oxygenating-watering-can.html

If you find benefit from more DO, then the fact remains that H2o2 will provide a larger percentage more DO than the water cans do.

Suby, there is plenty of evidence of the benefits of H2o2 in all phases of gardening, and yet evidence, sufficient or otherwise, is just not available listing the problems with using it.

I could give a rats toss who uses it or who doesn't, my gripe is with those who campaign against it, when I know for a proven fact that it benefits the grow, starting with it allowing even the most stubborn of seeds to propagate, and makes great foliage and wet feeds, as well as a first aid that fights fungi and anaerobic bacteria. The benefits from the added oxygen are clear healthy roots, and much lusher greener foliage, which equates to healthier, larger flower yields.

http://www.using-hydrogen-peroxide.com/peroxide-garden.html
http://www.using-hydrogen-peroxide.com/gardening-with-hydrogen-peroxide.html

Hydrogen Peroxide and Horticulture
By Bryce Fredrickson

Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) is a clear sharp smelling substance very similar in appearance to water (H2O). Like water it is made up of Hydrogen (H2) and Oxygen (O2), however H2O2 has an extra Oxygen atom in an unstable arrangement. It is this extra atom that gives H2O2 its useful properties. H2O2 has been used for many purposes including cleaning, bleaching, sterilizing, rocket fuel, animal feed treatment and in addition many miraculous claims about its health benefits have been made. This article isn't about any of these; instead it will concentrate on horticultural applications. H2O2 is of great use for both hydroponics and dirt/soilless gardening.

What Does Hydrogen Peroxide do?
H2O2 is an unstable molecule, when it breaks down a single oxygen atom and a molecule of water is released. This oxygen atom is extremely reactive and will attach itself to either another O- atom forming a stable Oxygen molecule or attack a nearby organic molecule. Both the stable and O- forms will increase the level of dissolved oxygen. This is the method by which H2O2 is beneficial. Pre treating the water supply with H2O2will drive out the Chlorine many cities use to sterilize it. This will also degrade any pesticides or herbicides that might be present as well as any other organic matter. Well water can be high in methane and organic sulfates, both of which H2O2 will remove. Many disease causing organisms and spores are killed by Oxygen, the free Oxygen H2O2 releases is extremely effective at this. H2O2 will help eliminate existing infections and will help prevent future ones. It is also useful for suppressing algae growth. The free Oxygen atom will destroy dead organic material (i.e, leaves roots) in the system preventing them from rotting and spreading diseases.

Over Watering
Roots require Oxygen to breathe and low levels are the main cause of almost all root diseases. Both soil and hydroponic plants often fall prey to the same syndrome although it is rarely recognized as what it really is. Hydroponic crops often fail due to "root rot" and soil crops succumb to "over watering." The real cause of both these problems is a shortage of Oxygen at the root zone. In a soil system the soil consists of particles, a film of water on the particles and air spaces between the particles. When too much water is put into the soil the air spaces fill with liquid. The roots will quickly use up what Oxygen is dissolved in the water, if they haven't drunk enough of the liquid to allow air back in to the soil spaces they will stop working. In this situation roots will start dying within twenty-four hours. As the roots die the plants ability to drink water and nutrients will decrease, this will cause symptoms of nutrient deficiencies (mostly pale, slow, weak growth), and strangely they will start to wilt like they don't have enough water. It is easy to make a fatal mistake at this point and add more water.

In a Hydroponic system the cause is a more direct simple lack of oxygen in the solution; this may be from inadequate circulation and/or aeration. High reservoir temperatures also interfere with Oxygen's ability to dissolve in the water. Temperatures above 70F (20C) will eventually cause problems, 62F-65F (16C-18C) is recommended. The same symptoms will appear as with soil plants but you can also check the roots. Healthy roots should be mostly white with maybe a slight yellowish tan tinge. If they are a brownish color with dead tips or they easily pull away there is at least the beginning of a serious problem. An organic, ‘dirt like’ rotting smell means there is already a very good chance it is too late. As roots die and rot they eat Oxygen out of the water, as Oxygen levels are even further depleted more roots die, a viscous circle may be well under way. Reduced Oxygen levels and high temperatures both encourage anaerobic bacteria and fungi. The plants may still be saved but you will have to work fast.

How Hydrogen Peroxide prevents root rot/over watering.
When plants are watered with H2O2 it will break down and release Oxygen into the area around the roots. This helps stop the Oxygen from being depleted in the water filled air spaces until air can get back into them. High Oxygen levels at the roots will encourage rapid healthy root growth. In a Hydroponic system H2O2 will disperse through out the system and raise Oxygen levels as it breaks down. Strong white healthy roots with lots of fuzzy new growth will be visible. This fuzzy growth has massive surface area allowing for rapid absorption of the huge amounts of water and nutrients needed for rapid top growth. A healthy plant starts with a healthy root system.

How to use it.
H2O2 comes in several different strengths 3%, 5%, 8% and 35%, also sold as food grade Hydrogen Peroxide. The most economical is 35% which we recommend be diluted to three percent before using, as at this high concentration it can cause damage to skin and clothing. When working with food grade H2O2 it is very important that you clean up any spills or splashes immediately, it will damage almost anything very quickly. This is extra important with skin and clothing. Skin will be temporarily bleached pure white if not washed cleaned. Gloves are strongly recommended when working with any strong chemical.

Food grade H2O2 can be diluted to three percent by mixing it one part to eleven parts water (preferably distilled). The storage container should be opaque to prevent light from getting in and it must be able to hold some pressure. If three-liter pop bottles are available in your area they are ideal for mixing and storing H2O2. There are twelve quarter liters (250ml) in three liters, if you put in one quarter liter H2O2 and eleven quarter liters (250ml) water in the bottle it will full of three percent H2O2 and the bottle can hold the pressure that the H2O2 will generate. Three percent Hydrogen Peroxide may be added at up to three ml's per liter (2 1\2 tsp. Per gallon), but it is recommended that you start at a lower concentration and increase to full strength over a few weeks. Use every watering even on fresh cuttings. For hydroponics use every reservoir change and replace twenty-five percent (one quarter) every day. Example: In a 100L reservoir you would add three hundred ml's (3%) H2O2when changing the nutrient. You would then add seventy-five ml's more every day.

Where to get it.
35% food grade: called food grade because it has no toxic impurities. Of course your local hydroponics retailer, whom you can locate over the web.(there may be shipping restrictions on high strength peroxides). The local feed supplier may have it in small towns. Prices range from fifteen dollars per quarter liter to eighty dollars a gallon. One gallon will treat up to fifty thousand liters of water.

3%5%, 8% Can be found at most drugstores or pharmacies, prices start at a less than a dollar for a one hundred-ml bottle that will treat one hundred liters.

What to do if you already have root rot.

In Dirt:
Use peroxide water with an anti-fungicide and a high Phosphate fertilizer (9-45-15, 10-52-10, 0-60-0) for root growth. Or any other product with rooting hormone dissolved in it is helpful in regrowing roots and is strongly recommended. Water heavily until liquid pours out the bottom of the pot. This sound like bad idea, but it flushes out stagnant dead water and replaces it with fresh highly oxygenated water. Don't let plants sit in trays full of water, the soil will absorb this water and stay too wet. Don't water again until the pot feels light and the top inch or two of the soil are dry.

In Hydro:
Change your nutrients. Add H2O2 to the system. This will add oxygen and chemically eat dead roots. If roots are badly rotted and can be pulled away by hand you should pull them off. They are already dead and will only rot, causing further problems. Add a fungicide to kill any fungus that is probably present in the rotted tissue to prevent it from spreading. Increase aeration of the water, get an air pump and air stones, or more of them, for the reservoir. An air stone under every plant is usually very effective, but will require a larger air pump. Models that will do from forty to four hundred stones are available. Decrease the reservoir temperature, oxygen dissolves better in cold water and disease causing organisms reproduce slower as well. A good temperate range is 62F to 65F; anything above 70F will eventually cause a problem. It is also a good idea to remove any wilty plants from the system and put them on a separate reservoir so they don't infect plants that are still healthy.

Summary
The key to big productive plants is a big healthy root system and Hydrogen Peroxide is a great way to keep your roots healthy. It is a must to ensure the biggest best crops possible and to increase the chances of your plants thriving to harvest. Peroxide users will rarely lose plants or crops to root disease and will harvest larger and more consistent crops.

I can attest to the summary statement.

 

[BurnOne]

What to do if you already have root rot. In Dirt: Use peroxide water with an anti-fungicide and a high Phosphate fertilizer (9-45-15, 10-52-10, 0-60-0) for root growth. Or any other product with rooting hormone dissolved in it is helpful in regrowing roots and is strongly recommended. Water heavily until liquid pours out the bottom of the pot. This sound like bad idea, but it flushes out stagnant dead water and replaces it with fresh highly oxygenated water. Don't let plants sit in trays full of water, the soil will absorb this water and stay too wet. Don't water again until the pot feels light and the top inch or two of the soil are dry.

Like I said, not organic. Those are synthetic fertilizers. My plants have never suffered root rot. Germing rates are very high depending on how old the seeds are. I don't see any need for more oxygen in the soil medium than can be had from bubbleing your water or nute solutions or teas.
Maybe someone can do a test grow. And study the actual results of this info further.
Burn1

 

[hoosierdaddy]

So, don't use synthetic fertilizer. That is if you can find one that is truly organic.
That was for the first aid procedure. And if one is trying to save a crop, who cares about the silly organic aspect of things anyway?

 

[BurnOne]

hoosierdaddy-
Do you have the time and room to do a side by side test grow using your suggestions? Anyone else?
Burn1

 

[igethigh23]

can i use h202 3% with water for my 2 week old plants in fox farm ocean forest soil? Or will it be bad for them? I think them can use some oxygen to the roots.... one looks sad... maybe ill test it on her...??

 

[hoosierdaddy]

BurnOne,
I have already done testing for myself, but I can for sure provide the results from a new test. It will have to wait until the first of next month before I will be able to do anything like that. I have an extra grow box I built as a drying box, and now have a thunk in there finishing. I could set up a nice comparison in there.

igethigh23,
Yes, you can start using h2o2 on the plants at any time in their development, from popping the seed, to chop. I use ~1oz(29ml) per gal for just about every feeding.
If I were to try and revive a seedling, I would use 2oz per gal mixed right into your nute solution. If no nutes yet, just mix into pH adjusted water.
This will help to save a waterlogged seedling, but you need to not water it as often.
Especially seedlings need to be given the conditions for the roots to search out area.
If you are waterlogging them, they will not tend to search out new area, and cause the plant to stunt a bit, until it's conditions are better (dried up some).
The roots sort of get drowned in a soppy soil, and they cannot receive the precious oxygen they need. The H2o2 will provide this much needed oxygen to the drowning roots, allowing them to healthy up and start searching for oxygen and nutrients on their own.

The water by weight thing applies to seedlings in cups as well as to mature plants in a pot. Only water just when the pot is light and lacking moisture.

I don't know what you have your seedlings in, but I do know that a 16oz beer cup with FFOF (and drain holes in bottom) will take ~6-8 ounces of solution to hydrate the soil just to runoff.

 

[jaykush]

this threads funny, theres nothing wrong with plain water, its been doing the job of watering plants for thousands of years.

if your soil becomes anaerobic easily or gets root rot easy.....then you need to re think your soil system. something is wrong.

 

[CT Guy]

Hey everyone,
So I sent an email to Dr. Ingham to ask her opinion on the subject. Here's what I got back.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absolutely not.

The action of hydrogen peroxide on membranes is to destroy membrane function by oxidizing the membrane.

The breakdown of H2O2 into O2 and H2O is highly destructive, and it is this first step that destroys.

The released oxygen is ok, but that oxygen is released only after a highly destructive force has done its work.

Why is it that we use hydrogen peroxide to sanitize tanks, or clean counters, or equipment? It does a good job of killing organisms on contact. Sure oxygen is released, but only after all membrane function has been brought to a screeching halt.

OK?

Elaine


-----Original Message-----
From: Keep It Simple, Inc.
To: Dr. Elaine Ingham
Sent: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:03 am
Subject: questions about hydrogen peroxide


Elaine,

Just curious about your opinion on hydrogen peroxide. I read a few articles now touting its benefits in regards to increasing oxygen levels and selecting for aerobic bacteria. In terms of gardening, this means adding a 3% solution to your soil as a way to increase the oxygen levels around the roots. Any thoughts?

Sincerely,
Tad

 

[Suby]

Great work CT

I dunno about the rest of you but Dr Igham is the final word on anything organic in this forum.
If she says it`s a NO then as far as anyone who`s read her work is concerned it`s a NO!
I think the addition MAY have benefits with reagards to hydroponic grows and soil grows using hydroponic nutrients but otherwise



As a side note JK I started my Lacto Bacillus culture yesterday.
The article MI posted and the part I made bold seem to link LB with oxygen distribution in the soil web which I found interesting.
Any thoughts on those hydrolysing water unit?

Sub's

 

[glock23]

Great work CT

I dunno about the rest of you but Dr Igham is the final word on anything organic in this forum.
If she says it`s a NO then as far as anyone who`s read her work is concerned it`s a NO!
I think the addition MAY have benefits with reagards to hydroponic grows and soil grows using hydroponic nutrients but otherwise



As a side note JK I started my Lacto Bacillus culture yesterday.
The article MI posted and the part I made bold seem to link LB with oxygen distribution in the soil web which I found interesting.
Any thoughts on those hydrolysing water unit?

Sub's

"Three percent Hydrogen Peroxide may be added at up to three ml's per liter (2 1\2 tsp. Per gallon), but it is recommended that you start at a lower concentration and increase to full strength over a few weeks. Use every watering even on fresh cuttings. For hydroponics use every reservoir change and replace twenty-five percent (one quarter) every day. Example: In a 100L reservoir you would add three hundred ml's (3%) H2O2when changing the nutrient. You would then add seventy-five ml's more every day."

Err by the way the e-mail to Doc Ingham (?) was written, it sounded like CT wanted to add 3% H2O2 directly to the soil! lol. Ask the Doc again and explain we're using a 0.3% solution of a 3% solution of H2O2 at most, not straight 3% H2O2.

On the lactobacillus issue: maybe that's why Indian people add milk to the soil when growing ganja!

 

[Suby]

I noticed that too but IMO she knew what he was asking.
From her explanation the release of the extra atom is detrimental and this occurs in a more dilute solution regardless...

 

[CT Guy]

I have to write her back anyway, so I can ask for a specific clarification. I assumed she would know recommended dilution rates, but you're right, the question did look a bit misleading in my email.

I'll ask her about the ARS article in regards to using hydrogen peroxide for disease control, but the other website (educate-yourself) just doesn't seem like a credible source to me.

Here's another article from the same website:
http://educate-yourself.org/mc/

 

[CT Guy]

Just went back through the ARS article myself. Did anyone look closely at the findings?

I pulled this from the last paragraph:

"The results indicate that watering nasturtiums at the tested hydrogen peroxide applications rates did provide slight growth and flowering benefits to nasturtiums grown in containers, although the results were not as great as anecdotal reports would suggest. The most likely explanation for the anecdotal reports of dramatic growth stimulus of hydrogen peroxide watering solutions may be a result of hydrogen peroxide decreasing or eliminating diseases in the soil containers rather than it serving as a direct stimulus to the plant."