I think that the death of some, means the food and life for others.dirkdaddy said:
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hydrogen peroxide?
- Thread starter prolificgrower
- Start date
Hello all,
Will check this out...
http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au...ed/adt-QCQU20050903.222650/public/02whole.pdf
"....
4.3.2.10 Soil microbial assessment
Plate culture agar (PCA) indicated that most probable number (MPN) of colony
forming units (cfu) representing total soil bacteria from 1 g of dry soil was within the
range for normal agricultural soils. Air injection and control treatments had almost
similar MPN at both FC and saturation water content (Figure 4.3.2.3). However, with
HP the MPN sharply increased with saturation compared to FC. It is apparent that
neither of the aeration methods significantly reduced the MPN of the total soil bacteria
at either soil moisture level in the heavy clay soil with vegetable soybean...."
check out page 200...it would seem the H2O2 can have a benificial effect on soil microkiddies.
minds_I
Will check this out...
http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au...ed/adt-QCQU20050903.222650/public/02whole.pdf
"....
4.3.2.10 Soil microbial assessment
Plate culture agar (PCA) indicated that most probable number (MPN) of colony
forming units (cfu) representing total soil bacteria from 1 g of dry soil was within the
range for normal agricultural soils. Air injection and control treatments had almost
similar MPN at both FC and saturation water content (Figure 4.3.2.3). However, with
HP the MPN sharply increased with saturation compared to FC. It is apparent that
neither of the aeration methods significantly reduced the MPN of the total soil bacteria
at either soil moisture level in the heavy clay soil with vegetable soybean...."
check out page 200...it would seem the H2O2 can have a benificial effect on soil microkiddies.
minds_I
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I've been saying all along that aerobic microbes feed on oxygen, and HP provides just that.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me the process that H2o2 would use to kill aerobic microbes. Simply stating it reacts, doesn't cut it.
Does anyone have a deep enough insight into chemistry to explain this in layman's terms?
If all we are using is logic and assumptions, then I will stick with my assumption that H2o2 is beneficial to aerobic microbes, by using the logic that increased DO is a good thing for the beneficial microbes.
And when I couple the fact that my plants thrive when I use the stuff, I simply have a hard time buying even one of the arguments I have heard so far against the use of the stuff.
I know it immediately had a micro biologist stating that it was a NO NO right off...but with some reflection even their statements changed. I think her impulse reaction was just like many of yours, although she may have enough scientist in her to realize that she may have made a blatant statement that she really couldn't back up. She too was simply using her immediate logic and assumption.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me the process that H2o2 would use to kill aerobic microbes. Simply stating it reacts, doesn't cut it.
Does anyone have a deep enough insight into chemistry to explain this in layman's terms?
If all we are using is logic and assumptions, then I will stick with my assumption that H2o2 is beneficial to aerobic microbes, by using the logic that increased DO is a good thing for the beneficial microbes.
And when I couple the fact that my plants thrive when I use the stuff, I simply have a hard time buying even one of the arguments I have heard so far against the use of the stuff.
I know it immediately had a micro biologist stating that it was a NO NO right off...but with some reflection even their statements changed. I think her impulse reaction was just like many of yours, although she may have enough scientist in her to realize that she may have made a blatant statement that she really couldn't back up. She too was simply using her immediate logic and assumption.
Hello all,
http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au...ed/adt-QCQU20050903.222650/public/02whole.pdf
Well after further study of the use of oxygation and specifically with HP I have abandon my experiment and began to apply HP to all my babies and so far they have not shown any signs of stress in fact, quite the opposite.
Soil microbes are indeed impacted in a postive way. So, from this data and the fact there is a positive yield impact at dilution ratios of 1cc HP/ liter of fluid of 50% solution (that would equate to 16.66 cc of 3% per liter).
Also, there is mention of a experiement involving the injection to HP after the irrigation cycle was complete at the rate of .15cc HP(50%) to each SDI injector site. This equates to injecting directly into the rootball 2.5cc of 3%.
I am not screaming that this the panacea to anything, but it clearly has been studied and has an application.
I will be the first to admit that more work needs to be done in the area with regard to dosing and more study of the micro-biology and the impact HP has.
From the above paper, I feel an alternative has been revealed.
Next, the impact of HP has on K+ uptake...ran across a couple of articles on it.
I do so encourage all to have a read...lenghty as it may be it is packed with shit I was not even aware of. Plant growth variables and other factors effecting growth. However chapter 4 is the most revealing to our projects IMO.
As to being peer reviewed, I cannot address but these are the result of a PhD thesis.
minds_I
EDIT: I decided not to discontinue the experiement I was working on...it is three identical clones approx the same stage of rooting. One is the control-only water, clone two is given 1cc HP(3%) per 60cc (way strong) and a third which is first watered and then injected with 1 cc 3% HP in the rootzone using a straw embedded in the center of the cup.
I will take pics tomorrow. I am still giving my other girls HP in their fert solution/water
EDIT:
Here are the girls I have been working with...
The one on the left is recieving HP in the water, the middle is watered abd then HP added thru straw to rootzone, anf the right one is water only.
IN addition, after I took the pics I fim'ed them as they are getting leggy. Yes, yes, I could have lst'ed, but I did not.
http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au...ed/adt-QCQU20050903.222650/public/02whole.pdf
Well after further study of the use of oxygation and specifically with HP I have abandon my experiment and began to apply HP to all my babies and so far they have not shown any signs of stress in fact, quite the opposite.
Soil microbes are indeed impacted in a postive way. So, from this data and the fact there is a positive yield impact at dilution ratios of 1cc HP/ liter of fluid of 50% solution (that would equate to 16.66 cc of 3% per liter).
Also, there is mention of a experiement involving the injection to HP after the irrigation cycle was complete at the rate of .15cc HP(50%) to each SDI injector site. This equates to injecting directly into the rootball 2.5cc of 3%.
I am not screaming that this the panacea to anything, but it clearly has been studied and has an application.
I will be the first to admit that more work needs to be done in the area with regard to dosing and more study of the micro-biology and the impact HP has.
From the above paper, I feel an alternative has been revealed.
Next, the impact of HP has on K+ uptake...ran across a couple of articles on it.
I do so encourage all to have a read...lenghty as it may be it is packed with shit I was not even aware of. Plant growth variables and other factors effecting growth. However chapter 4 is the most revealing to our projects IMO.
As to being peer reviewed, I cannot address but these are the result of a PhD thesis.
minds_I
EDIT: I decided not to discontinue the experiement I was working on...it is three identical clones approx the same stage of rooting. One is the control-only water, clone two is given 1cc HP(3%) per 60cc (way strong) and a third which is first watered and then injected with 1 cc 3% HP in the rootzone using a straw embedded in the center of the cup.
I will take pics tomorrow. I am still giving my other girls HP in their fert solution/water
EDIT:
Here are the girls I have been working with...
The one on the left is recieving HP in the water, the middle is watered abd then HP added thru straw to rootzone, anf the right one is water only.
IN addition, after I took the pics I fim'ed them as they are getting leggy. Yes, yes, I could have lst'ed, but I did not.
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chronic50s
Member
I was just looking around and came across this:
http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Compost-Tea
The guy uses HP in his compost teas so im guessing it cant be all that bad for organic gardening, maybe only used for certain things like teas etc...idk tho just thought i should add that in here
http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Compost-Tea
The guy uses HP in his compost teas so im guessing it cant be all that bad for organic gardening, maybe only used for certain things like teas etc...idk tho just thought i should add that in here
Great post MI, I think we need to peer review this shit ourselves.
It's worth a try, if I look back on the things I've done to my plants in the name of curiosity this seems no wrose lol.
I've got a some SOG action coming up soon, I can play around with 3-4 of a 12 in the spirit of things.
Anyone else?
It's worth a try, if I look back on the things I've done to my plants in the name of curiosity this seems no wrose lol.
I've got a some SOG action coming up soon, I can play around with 3-4 of a 12 in the spirit of things.
Anyone else?
hoosierdaddy said:
I've read through this thread.
If you're talking about Dr. Elaine Ingham, you really are out of line with that statement.
You obviously have no clue who she is, and don't know anything about her work.
Dr Ingham doesn't waffle or back down on any issue. She is one of the world's foremost experts in her field. So who are you to question what she says?
What is your background in microbiology and chemistry?
What Dr. Ingham does is real science. I haven't been a member here long, but I see very little evidence of any science in what you and MindsI have done here. Quoting obscure studies which are on chemical fertilizer grows doesn't have much to do with organics from what I know.
f
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No, it is you that are out of line, fizwit.
I suggest you reference what you will from her concerning this issue, and make your comments. My description of the littel bit I saw from here concerning this issue is spot on. If you disagree, then what do you have to back up your dissent, other than your over zealous intrigue with someone, whom you forgot to mention was above all, a marketeer.
You may see very little evidence of any science in what we are presenting, but what you are presenting is less than a dimes worth of nothing.
I suggest you reference what you will from her concerning this issue, and make your comments. My description of the littel bit I saw from here concerning this issue is spot on. If you disagree, then what do you have to back up your dissent, other than your over zealous intrigue with someone, whom you forgot to mention was above all, a marketeer.
You may see very little evidence of any science in what we are presenting, but what you are presenting is less than a dimes worth of nothing.
fizwit said:
Hello all,
Fizwit, read the thesis- chapter 4 specifically to get to the chase of the matter. Afterwards, if you need help digesting the data I will gladly help as I know there is complex subject matter in the thesis.
Futher if you had read the entire thread you would have noticed that she herself checked on the information and agreed there is a need for more study on the matter.
As to quoting obscure studies...well there friend, sometimes a cigar is just a phuquing cigar, ya know!
Welcome to ICMAG where inteligence is welcome but not necessary.
minds_I
PS, what is your background in microbiology or chemistry?
I myself, have only had chem101 in college many years ago so my chem skilz are questionable. I am not a microbiologist but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night.
will gladly help as I know there is complex subject matter in the thesis." He owned you with that one...and try at least reading what has been presented, and THEN comment. Rude really.
What does this mean?
You are the rude person here the way you talk about Dr Ingham.
I don't need any help with complex subject matter.
It looks like CTman and Jaykush are the only people here who know what organics is all about.
Now MindsI has a thread going trying to prove that synthetic fertilizers like ammonium nitrate are actually good for soil microbes. He is using more of those obscure studies to make his point.
I thought this was an ORGANICS forum?
f
What does this mean?
You are the rude person here the way you talk about Dr Ingham.
I don't need any help with complex subject matter.
It looks like CTman and Jaykush are the only people here who know what organics is all about.
Now MindsI has a thread going trying to prove that synthetic fertilizers like ammonium nitrate are actually good for soil microbes. He is using more of those obscure studies to make his point.
I thought this was an ORGANICS forum?
f
W
Whatever
I contacted Dr. Ingham awhile back and she could not be of much assistance regarding this subject and was referred to someone else who never got back to me. It's been awhile since researching this but my contention has always been the strength of effect is related to the strength of solution. You will not sterilize your soil by small additions of H2O2 nor will there be a major impact on soil biology. In the food industry they use like straight 35% and up H2O2, I think up to 50%, AND high temps to sterilize things like those little fruit drink boxes before filling. I have talked to some manufacturers and was told something like the bubbling action you see when pouring H2O2 on a cut is not bacteria getting decimated but more of a chemical type enzyme or something or another process. Straight out of the manufacturers mouth was told the sterilizing effect of pouring weak H2O2 on a cut is virtually nothing and the effect of pouring some on soil would be negligible at best.
In regards to soil issues it would take a lot of a very high concentration of H2O2 to do serious damage. This all would be fairly easy to test with a good microscope. I'm guessing the effect on the microlife will be muted in a soil enviro due to all the matter in there while adding to something like a bubbled tea might have a stronger effect. Also I think the difference between H2O2 additions in something like straight DWC might be different than in soil.
It is not commonly known that H2O2 additions to teas is a way to adjust the ORP value and ORP is important for nutrient uptake and is separate from pH. Do some research into Lubke's of Austria about ORP and think Peaceful Valley has some information available also. I think if you wanna mess with H2O2 in soil get an ORP meter and learn how all that works. I personally do not think H2O2 addition is necessary in soil if you have dialed in your mix properly but still there will be benefit if working with ORP. I have no problem seeing peeps add small concentrations of H2O2 to organic soil grows cause any negative effect on the microlife will be short lived.
Dr. Ingham can do a study cause she does provide services like that but only if someone coughed up the $...lol.
In regards to soil issues it would take a lot of a very high concentration of H2O2 to do serious damage. This all would be fairly easy to test with a good microscope. I'm guessing the effect on the microlife will be muted in a soil enviro due to all the matter in there while adding to something like a bubbled tea might have a stronger effect. Also I think the difference between H2O2 additions in something like straight DWC might be different than in soil.
It is not commonly known that H2O2 additions to teas is a way to adjust the ORP value and ORP is important for nutrient uptake and is separate from pH. Do some research into Lubke's of Austria about ORP and think Peaceful Valley has some information available also. I think if you wanna mess with H2O2 in soil get an ORP meter and learn how all that works. I personally do not think H2O2 addition is necessary in soil if you have dialed in your mix properly but still there will be benefit if working with ORP. I have no problem seeing peeps add small concentrations of H2O2 to organic soil grows cause any negative effect on the microlife will be short lived.
Dr. Ingham can do a study cause she does provide services like that but only if someone coughed up the $...lol.
Look Pedro, Toodles, or whatever your alias is, posting up in the public forum that was sent to you via a PM is a clear violation of the sites rules.fizwit said:
And it meant exactly as it stated, asswipe.
Debating someone with your limited capacity is futile, since you will simply pick up your toys and run off crying and mad, when again you are shown to be lacking.
Get a friggin grip.
What I love about this forum is we have equal representation in all aspects of organic growing community.
Open dialogue and sharing, and not hating, has been key to the success of this forum.
We have old schoolers, we have science driven organicists, we have alot of growers willing to try new techniques and go the extra mile, we have organic bottle growers and the odd purist as well
I welcome every type of grower openly, everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone is open to disagree respectfully.
Dr. Ingham is human and thereby open to being wrong.
It's easy to poke holes in ANY study, trying it yourself is the only way to know for sure.
There is still plenty to learn within organics, we have barely scratched the surface of it's potential IMO.
If we close our minds to new possibilities we keep oursleves from new discoveries.
Open dialogue and sharing, and not hating, has been key to the success of this forum.
We have old schoolers, we have science driven organicists, we have alot of growers willing to try new techniques and go the extra mile, we have organic bottle growers and the odd purist as well
I welcome every type of grower openly, everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone is open to disagree respectfully.
Dr. Ingham is human and thereby open to being wrong.
It's easy to poke holes in ANY study, trying it yourself is the only way to know for sure.
There is still plenty to learn within organics, we have barely scratched the surface of it's potential IMO.
If we close our minds to new possibilities we keep oursleves from new discoveries.
W
Whatever
I know Tom Hill uses H2O2 and have chatted with him about it but can't post certain details cause it was mainly through PM's but he did post some stuff. Hopefully someday he'll publish a paper about his research. Don't know if he'll do any microbiological work though.
It's pretty simple...I looked at that link MI recently posted and they showed how soil O2 levels drop after watering/fertigation like 43% just water and like 23% in the oxygenated test area. O2 levels, more specifically ORP, directly affect nutrient uptake. So if you use the correct amount of H2O2 to adjust ORP when you water/fertigate you maintain ORP within an acceptable range and as the plant uses water/moisture soil O2 levels rise displacing the water maintaining ORP within an 'acceptable' range.
That's one of the things I've noticed about soil grows is the plant at times grows significantly faster than others and I've related this to watering/fertigating cycles but could be wrong. I have not noticed this with hydro grows where they seem to be going full tilt boogie cause nute and O2 levels can be controlled while more difficult in soil.
I still think a lot of it comes down to your medium structure/composition. Also if you transplant a small plant, like from a 1 gal pot to a 5, into a large container and don't give the plant enough time to build a large root structure and create more vegetative mass up top and flip to flower the frequency between waterings will decrease as opposed to putting that same plant into a 2 or 3 gallon container. I feel this can create a more stagnant O2 enviro in the root zone cause soil moisture will not be used up as quickly.
Another thing about that study is it showed a significant improvement in root mass and yield with the oxygenated group...well duh...the soil those plants were in was probably lacking from the start and feel if they put another control group in a premium soil mix without O2 manipulated water they would have also seen a significant improvement. Mazzei makes injectors for field irrigation that introduce O2 into the water/nute solution and that in and of itself improves root mass, production and general health....cause most soil in large ag ops is definitely not optimum to start with.
It's pretty simple...I looked at that link MI recently posted and they showed how soil O2 levels drop after watering/fertigation like 43% just water and like 23% in the oxygenated test area. O2 levels, more specifically ORP, directly affect nutrient uptake. So if you use the correct amount of H2O2 to adjust ORP when you water/fertigate you maintain ORP within an acceptable range and as the plant uses water/moisture soil O2 levels rise displacing the water maintaining ORP within an 'acceptable' range.
That's one of the things I've noticed about soil grows is the plant at times grows significantly faster than others and I've related this to watering/fertigating cycles but could be wrong. I have not noticed this with hydro grows where they seem to be going full tilt boogie cause nute and O2 levels can be controlled while more difficult in soil.
I still think a lot of it comes down to your medium structure/composition. Also if you transplant a small plant, like from a 1 gal pot to a 5, into a large container and don't give the plant enough time to build a large root structure and create more vegetative mass up top and flip to flower the frequency between waterings will decrease as opposed to putting that same plant into a 2 or 3 gallon container. I feel this can create a more stagnant O2 enviro in the root zone cause soil moisture will not be used up as quickly.
Another thing about that study is it showed a significant improvement in root mass and yield with the oxygenated group...well duh...the soil those plants were in was probably lacking from the start and feel if they put another control group in a premium soil mix without O2 manipulated water they would have also seen a significant improvement. Mazzei makes injectors for field irrigation that introduce O2 into the water/nute solution and that in and of itself improves root mass, production and general health....cause most soil in large ag ops is definitely not optimum to start with.
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Hey BC :friends:
I've noticed the same, a hydro plant gets oxygenated water 24/7.
Soil plants have a slight ebb and flow in moisture content, it takes time after watering to dry out a bit and usually you can get a growth spurt from it.
This is the gap H2O2 might be filling, I noticed the same "reaction" the day after a compost tea.
I've noticed the same, a hydro plant gets oxygenated water 24/7.
Soil plants have a slight ebb and flow in moisture content, it takes time after watering to dry out a bit and usually you can get a growth spurt from it.
This is the gap H2O2 might be filling, I noticed the same "reaction" the day after a compost tea.
Hello all,
Yeah, I would tend to agree with you Whatever & Suby on the reasoning that hydro is getting greater O2 action at the roots.
Not to guano on the airation the teas have, but if I understand correctly this O2 drops quickly as you are only getting up to 8ppm of DO max at temps in the 70's. The Mazzie injector provides a greater DO level in addition to the N2 that may be being utilized by the microkiddies. I unfortunately do not have the equipment for SDI.
I could go with the air stone/pump/soil fart thing (which was addressed in a paper I linked to but can't recall) but that is not as effective.
I like the idea of adding HP to my fert solutions and have begun using it throughout my grow. In addition, I placed some aquirium air tubing in the pots just below the rootball. To this I have been adding 8.5cc of 3% HP on nights that I do not water. Its only been a few days but I think I am seeing greater water use. This is consistant with the data but of course more time will tell.
As a anocdotal sidenote, since I have been applying HP to the fert solutions I think I am seeing happier plants.
This is just my opinion on my observations.
Lastly, Suby, well said, this is a place to learn.
minds_I
Yeah, I would tend to agree with you Whatever & Suby on the reasoning that hydro is getting greater O2 action at the roots.
Not to guano on the airation the teas have, but if I understand correctly this O2 drops quickly as you are only getting up to 8ppm of DO max at temps in the 70's. The Mazzie injector provides a greater DO level in addition to the N2 that may be being utilized by the microkiddies. I unfortunately do not have the equipment for SDI.
I could go with the air stone/pump/soil fart thing (which was addressed in a paper I linked to but can't recall) but that is not as effective.
I like the idea of adding HP to my fert solutions and have begun using it throughout my grow. In addition, I placed some aquirium air tubing in the pots just below the rootball. To this I have been adding 8.5cc of 3% HP on nights that I do not water. Its only been a few days but I think I am seeing greater water use. This is consistant with the data but of course more time will tell.
As a anocdotal sidenote, since I have been applying HP to the fert solutions I think I am seeing happier plants.
This is just my opinion on my observations.
Lastly, Suby, well said, this is a place to learn.
minds_I
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I have seen Dr Ingham speak in Portland. I was very much impressed with her talk.
I don't like to see respected people like Dr Ingham shown the disrespect that Hoosierdaddy showed.
I don't know who Toodles or Pedro are. The only posts I see are old posts. I do remember seeing posts by toodles here, but they have been taken away.
f
I don't like to see respected people like Dr Ingham shown the disrespect that Hoosierdaddy showed.
I don't know who Toodles or Pedro are. The only posts I see are old posts. I do remember seeing posts by toodles here, but they have been taken away.
f
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W
Whatever
Getting back to the topic at hand...my research showed rainwater has trace amounts, but still measurable, of H2O2 and thunderstorms generate the highest concentration of H2O2. One study I saw showed H2O2 levels increasing like 3X in a pond/lake after an extended rain and another study showed that surface sea algae, the more single cell/small stuff and not kelp, were negatively affected when H2O2 at the concentration found in rainwater was added to the culture.
So mother nature has created rainwater with enough H2O2 to be measurable and have a noticeable effect on certain alga. Since algae like that used in the study are technically cyanobacteria (a hybrid of a plant and a bacterium) I think it provides some solid info that can be applied to a different area...soil growing.
I partly see rainwater as nature's natural flushing agent to remove salts and stuff accumulated over the year but after discovering the H2O2 thing think it also somehow cleanse/reinvigorates the microbeasties somehow. Another thing I read was how modern pollution is causing a decrease in the H2O2 content of rainwater due to the interaction with the particles so some farmers started adding very dilute amounts of H2O2 to their crops and noticed an improvement in crop yield and health. If H2O2 is reacting out with particles in the air it will also react out with all that matter that makes up a container of soil so I'd think it's direct effect on bacteria will be muted.
Anyway...still don't use H2O2 in my soil grows...lol.
So mother nature has created rainwater with enough H2O2 to be measurable and have a noticeable effect on certain alga. Since algae like that used in the study are technically cyanobacteria (a hybrid of a plant and a bacterium) I think it provides some solid info that can be applied to a different area...soil growing.
I partly see rainwater as nature's natural flushing agent to remove salts and stuff accumulated over the year but after discovering the H2O2 thing think it also somehow cleanse/reinvigorates the microbeasties somehow. Another thing I read was how modern pollution is causing a decrease in the H2O2 content of rainwater due to the interaction with the particles so some farmers started adding very dilute amounts of H2O2 to their crops and noticed an improvement in crop yield and health. If H2O2 is reacting out with particles in the air it will also react out with all that matter that makes up a container of soil so I'd think it's direct effect on bacteria will be muted.
Anyway...still don't use H2O2 in my soil grows...lol.
