How to correct a bad N deficiency late in the game?

[_tessarecting]

Both seabird guano pellets 12 12 2.5 and aurora soul 8 0 0 have nitrogen and calcium, are organic, and are sold at the hydro shop...would take care of extended future and right now...plus you can foliar the soul

 

[jidoka]

You have pH over 7, gypsum is the way to go with amino N. I still think you will be short K...but you could spray K later

 

[Slipnot]

Looks more like plants got stressed out from being dried out not N def

 

[plantingplants]

Tess, I need K too. I'd like to find aurora soul since it has calnit in it but I can't. Have you seen it around?

Jidoka I thought you told me not to add anymore gypsum because it will leach K? Does calcium nitrate not work under pH 7? So I can do MKP and amino n plus gypsum? How much calcium do you think I should feed?

Slipnot, they only wilted once, early in the season. Since then the top has dried out but I'm pretty sure thru get enough water.

 

[_tessarecting]

I got some from the shop a couple weeks ago. They are good about ordering stuff if you ask but it was in stock.

 

[Thcvhunter]

FPJ/OHN FTW

 

[HillMizer]

Hunter,

Once you get K and Na to a certain point, you need more P. Microbes at that point wont' do the job,they cannot prosper. Trying to fix things in a short term annual crop at the last moment with biology is a tall order and not very likely to succeed.

My farms are organic and I can guarantee you there is no mycorrhizae happening as my K levels are over 500ppm naturally. Any idea how much P is needed to make that soil productive?

I have been an organic farmer for more than 30 years. I out produce nearly all conventional growers.

Biology in my soil? For sure. But that will only get you so far.

We can agree to disagree.

So one again if we have (or assume to have) high levels of K and low levels of Ca; what's the theory behind adding 0-52-34? Wouldn't all that soluble K necessitate adding more calcium as well? Why not di-cal orb(feedstores, grass valley) or 3x Phos? Or a mixture that banks heavier on P and Ca while still adding K from MKP?

On the organic side why not guano tea on top of fishbone meal and gypsum application?

Sorry Plants, not trying to highjack the thread on Nitrogen but I feel though we've just entered a late season nutrition conversation based on a very common scenario.

What's up with the possibility of providing conditions for pathogenic fungi by adding the extra P? I used to use the Tom Hill mix (25#+ bonemeal per yard) my results were not as good as his .

Gone too far or what? FYI my soil is modified coots using new and used Vermisoil as a base. 2 yard per plant. Still topdressed, still feeding fish & crab hydrolysate.

 

[slownickel]

Hill,

Pure guesses, no data other than the low conductivity, meaning the plants are starving.

When one has to guess, shotgun approach. Throwing everything including the kitchen sink and see if you hit the target.

Sad folks like to work with no numbers. Maybe someone has a cheap crystal ball for sale.

 

[cannascholar]

A quick approach to Ca would be to goto store and get general organics camg which I believe contains fine mesh Ca carbonate and mg carbonate. Pure blend pro grow also contains fine Ca carb but Amazon is best buy. Some Calcium Silicate top dressed would also provide Ca and good amount of Si to help fend off disease. Personally I would avoid CaNO3 at this point because it may bring on more issues.

I sometimes use Ammonium phosphate 16-20-00 early early flower to help provide easily available P.

 

[jidoka]

Tess, I need K too. I'd like to find aurora soul since it has calnit in it but I can't. Have you seen it around?

Jidoka I thought you told me not to add anymore gypsum because it will leach K? Does calcium nitrate not work under pH 7? So I can do MKP and amino n plus gypsum? How much calcium do you think I should feed?

Slipnot, they only wilted once, early in the season. Since then the top has dried out but I'm pretty sure thru get enough water.

Plant...I thought you said you could not get CaNO3 so I gave you an alternative based on what you have.

But make no mistake as soon as you go CaNO3 you are treating this similar to hydro the rest of the grow. The Ca from CaNO3 will be available even faster than gypsum and it will boot other stuff off the cec sites which means you will have to feed those elements also.

Back when I used salts in a peat/compost mix my formula was 3.5 grams CaNO3, 2 grams Epsom and mpk and enough k2so4 to match K to Ca. It worked well.

I would spray micros rather than letting them get tied up in that soup. I would also spray some kelp and maybe sea crop for the ultra traces.

You might give Johnny Redthumb a shout. He is on the same path with the coot mix and is a week or two ahead of you. Ask him how his approach is working.

The whole problem starts with all of the Ca that is amended...and in coots defense he never recommended that extra Ca from gypsum. Then as the Ca get released it bumps other shit from the cec sites and pretty soon things are not balanced and the plant cannot make chlorophyll properly, then it cant exude sugars to the roots, then the bacteria shut down, then you end up with low EC and starving plants. All this in spite of having an over abundance of minerals in the soil

I know this because I did make a coot mix...1/3 peat, oly mountain and pumice. But based on the lab test (some of us do measure) I only added 4.2 pounds of calcium silicate vs all of the oyster, gypsum and crab meal. Mine is working OK other than you got to constantly water it.

edit for Slow...the raw mix was pretty acidic so the M3 test is valid...after all that Ca it goes calcareous on guys and yes, the AA 8.2 should be used.

 

[jidoka]

For the record the raw mix had a pH of 5.6, cec 9.09, sulfer 17 ppm, P2O5 188. Base cation %s: Ca 36.58, Mg 18,65, K 9.07 and Na 2.52

Al is 110 ppm, Mn 10 and Fe 77.

I didn't use any of the meals and there is enough N anyways. All I did was the Ca and I bumped Mn a bunch, and B, Cu and Zn a little

When I have a chance to put together a soil it is a serious fuck up to me if I take it all the way to calcareous.

 

[slownickel]

Mizer,

I would push the conductivity higher, the conductivity was low. MKP is a neat product with more P than K.

Calcium.... for sure.

Check out that soil analysis posted in the AEA thread from Spectrum and look at the 80% Ca w/M3 and then half as much with [email protected]

No one has enough Ca.

Folks need to experiment instead of balking.

 

[plantingplants]

Fuck. Got back last night and checked them out this morning. The yellowing has progressed up the plants despite the feeding. I had a friend water on tues and thurs. Last sunday (6 days ago), I fed a bag of 9-21-17 plus 16-0-0 amino N.. Totaling 900 ppm:

9% Nitrogen (2.5% ammoniacal, 6.5 nitrate)
21% p2o5
17% k2o
Ca 4.4%
Mg 1.7%
S 4%
Co cu fe mn mo zn

Ammonia phosphate. Potassium phosphate. Potassium nitrate. Potassium sulfate. Calnit. Magnit.


Why are they still dying? I have two suspicions- the first is that I didn't feed enough. Not sure if that's it though- the way I learned to feed a 99 full of 300 gallons is one pool of water a day (at the peak of consumption) with one bag of grow more added every other watering. Mine got the equivalent of two bags a week ago. Second, the 160 ppm water- can salt in the water fuck with stuff that hard? Should I spend money on a test or just buy a purification system?

This is why I used chem salts -- if I had top dressed with some organics I'd be pulling my fuckin hair out wondering if the nutes are going to breakdown at the right time to pull then out of their nosedive.

What the fuck. This is not good.


Ca is only 4.4%. Probably should have put down some gypsum. How do I figure out how much Ca my nutes should have? Ca ppm: K ppm?



Doka, why do you think shcrews had a great crop last year with that soil if gypsum robs all the nutrients?


But seriously, whyyyyy are the fan leaves still dropping all the way up?!?

Are they just hungry as fuck? My girlfriend's plant just flipped and is in her own little custom mix in a half wine barrel (just some old soil plus 707 plus quarter bag of chicken manure) and it's doing the same thing. I mean hers must be hungry right? Maybe they just All need more food.

And actually my friend has the same problem even more advanced. I was telling him I think he ran out of food. I just didn't let myself believe that about mine because it was supposed to be water only. So that must be it. They're super hungry.

I'll find Johnny redthumb and see how he's doing.

 

[slownickel]

Really resisting a soil analysis. You would have had this all figured out by now...

 

[plantingplants]

Nickel, you calcareous bastard, I'm totally down for a soil test and I love looking at numbers but it was too late two weeks ago to wait around for results and a million conflicting diagnoses while fan leaves withered away like my dying hope.

Should I still get one now? Or did I spoil it with my chemical hail mary?

 

[slownickel]

Nicest complement I have had all day. Why thanks!

You would have had the results in 5 days. There are no hail Mary's in agriculture. There is science and the rest is guessing. Done guessing yet?

 

[plantingplants]

I let them dry out until a few wilted slightly. Took 3 full days. So I wasn't overwatering. I gave them 300 ppm of Calcium Nitrate along with 450 ppm of MPK. Since my water and soil are over 7 pH, I think I'll back off the N and start feeding TSP + k2so4 to help with pH. Maybe mix a little calnit in. Will also foliar 0-0-17 kelp extract with Micropak tonight.

Done guessing. Just bottle feeding now.

Jidoka, what do you mean match Ca to k?