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How to correct a bad N deficiency late in the game?
- Thread starter plantingplants
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OrganicDisciple
Member
Is coot saying not to add lime? Just oyster to his mix?
. Most common mistake in the business IMO.
ForestBuds
Member
Have the same issue. Watering them twice a day instead of once. First light then heavy watering. Fed them ph adjusted Dynagro Grow nutrient one day and Dirt MD in watering can the next day. Seems to be working for me.
plantingplants
Active member
here's a whole album of photos of the deficiency. It's on every plant. Towards the end of the album you'll see one of the two or three plants that have purple stems. And the next photo is one has burnt tips midway up. After that is one plant that is so jacked up I have no clue what's going on. Very strange deficiency or excess?
jidoka said what looks like N could be K deficiency because of too much ca sulfate creating and then leaching k2so4. I don't think it's run out of N. My girlfriend's vanilla kush in a half wine barrel is killing it, almost as big as my biggest, not quite as thick (shaded a lot more), but perfectly green, no deficiencies. Half old who knows soil, plus half 707, plus a 1/4 bag of chicken manure, watered once or twice a week.
...and here are my roots. I dug 6" down to take a soil sample. The soil would just barely come together if I squeezed hard, and would fall apart very easily. Just to give you an idea of moisture level. A 1:1 slurry with distilled water gave me 170ppm so 0.34 EC. Soil pH was 7. How are my roots?
jidoka said what looks like N could be K deficiency because of too much ca sulfate creating and then leaching k2so4. I don't think it's run out of N. My girlfriend's vanilla kush in a half wine barrel is killing it, almost as big as my biggest, not quite as thick (shaded a lot more), but perfectly green, no deficiencies. Half old who knows soil, plus half 707, plus a 1/4 bag of chicken manure, watered once or twice a week.
...and here are my roots. I dug 6" down to take a soil sample. The soil would just barely come together if I squeezed hard, and would fall apart very easily. Just to give you an idea of moisture level. A 1:1 slurry with distilled water gave me 170ppm so 0.34 EC. Soil pH was 7. How are my roots?
_tessarecting
ஓ
Wtf 170 ppm??? How is that possible? Mine was 560 before I top dressed like 2 or 3 weeks ago. Thats super low...take more samples...you want it between 500-800
Some don't look too bad but a few look really bad. Those really yellow ones will be really hard to green up. Once they reach the point of shedding leaves and that level of malnutrition, it seems like they have a hard time ever looking healthy again.
Looks like N def.
They look exactly like my dads plants. Year after year he puts plants in these same little holes. No amending, no liquid food, nothing. By early flower they're banana yellow and by harvest the buds are really the only vegetation left on the plant.
Looks like N def.
They look exactly like my dads plants. Year after year he puts plants in these same little holes. No amending, no liquid food, nothing. By early flower they're banana yellow and by harvest the buds are really the only vegetation left on the plant.
plantingplants
Active member
It happened to me last year too actually. Had some plants like your dad's that even had dying leaves inside the buds. Some Were fine.
Fuck. I guess I just was waiting for the soil to take care of it and not wanting to add anything to what I thought was a very hot soil.
I hav some 16-0-0 protein nitrogen from biodiversity and some MPK. Should I just feed them with those?
Tess that's the second time I checked EC. About the same last time....
Fuck. I guess I just was waiting for the soil to take care of it and not wanting to add anything to what I thought was a very hot soil.
I hav some 16-0-0 protein nitrogen from biodiversity and some MPK. Should I just feed them with those?
Tess that's the second time I checked EC. About the same last time....
Howdy buddy,
So you used Coot's mix?
Did you ever topdress any time during the grow?
How far into flowering are you?
How far into flowering did the symptoms begin?
Myself, I dont feed any N or Mg after week 3, though I aim to get my final top-dress done during/before the transition into flower.
If you have to supply N during flower, I urge one to use a tea instead of top-dressing dry amendments. The tea will supply a good boost of N while also decaying/ending the supply quickly. Also, the tea may help boost your microbes so that they work with the plant to supply her with what she actually needs and not just what we growers think she needs.
So you used Coot's mix?
Did you ever topdress any time during the grow?
How far into flowering are you?
How far into flowering did the symptoms begin?
Myself, I dont feed any N or Mg after week 3, though I aim to get my final top-dress done during/before the transition into flower.
If you have to supply N during flower, I urge one to use a tea instead of top-dressing dry amendments. The tea will supply a good boost of N while also decaying/ending the supply quickly. Also, the tea may help boost your microbes so that they work with the plant to supply her with what she actually needs and not just what we growers think she needs.
2nd post,
K, I just went through the pics..... Doesn't look like just a simple N issue -- I suspect one of your amendments may have been sub-par; I've had this same thing happen to me when building a soil using the wrong kelp (too salty, caused issues competing with N and Mg, or perhaps the high sodium content messed with the microbes and fucked up the solubilizing/fixing of N, P, and Mg)
What sources/brands did you use for your amendments?
K, I just went through the pics..... Doesn't look like just a simple N issue -- I suspect one of your amendments may have been sub-par; I've had this same thing happen to me when building a soil using the wrong kelp (too salty, caused issues competing with N and Mg, or perhaps the high sodium content messed with the microbes and fucked up the solubilizing/fixing of N, P, and Mg)
What sources/brands did you use for your amendments?
Root tips are super lacking, no branching. Feeder root activity is not good. Your feeder roots should have tiny little feeder roots. You barely have secondary much less tertiary roots. Not good.
Your crop is starving and at the same time, most definitely missing calcium. A bit of calcium nitrate would definitely help. I bit of MKP will help. Worm castings washed in would help provided it is a good source.
MAP foliarly would probably stop the loss of the older leaves and force the plant to make more roots.
Test you bad areas vs you good areas at a real lab. LEARN
Your crop is starving and at the same time, most definitely missing calcium. A bit of calcium nitrate would definitely help. I bit of MKP will help. Worm castings washed in would help provided it is a good source.
MAP foliarly would probably stop the loss of the older leaves and force the plant to make more roots.
Test you bad areas vs you good areas at a real lab. LEARN
Do you have a decent camera you can use to get up closer and capture more detail?
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cannascholar
Member
I would top dress with a lb per plant DR.earth all purpose 4-4-4 which contains alfalfa meal, fishbone meal, feather meal, bone meal, kelp, k sulfate,humic acid and some other things and maybe some stutzman's chicken manure as well ASAP. I had a similiar issue with leaves yellowing in 707 soil and the stutzman's and dr.earth did the trick.
Excellent shot gun approach. Pretty much covers everything. Doubt you can get your calcium where you need it this manner, but there is quite a bit of calcium there in that combo...
HillMizer
Member
Why MKP (Monopotassium Phosphate?) If we're talking calcium why not Monocalcium phosphate, super phosphate, triple phos or dicalcium phosphate.
I've got a bucket of 50/50 triple phos and MAP(monoammonium phosphate) kicking around if you want it too plants.
Thanks slownickel I enjoy seeing what you have to say here.
Employ nutrient-fixing and nutrient/mineral solubilizing microbes to make whatever is bound up available to the plant.
Very rarely does soil need more input, especially when pot farmers are concerned.
Soil analyists will tell you to add 5x the amount of phosphorous that is needed because P is so slow to become available to the plant. This can be true for those wanting to grow in dead dirt, but if emplying microbes, then everything becomes more available and you can actually use less than the standard amount (so, 1/8 the amount P that a soil lab would recommend for the initial soil mix, with no spikes/additions later in the grow).
Looking at growing as a chemistry experiment only realizes a protion of what gardening is all about.
Cultivate Nature, and allow Nature to cultivate your garden for you ;-)
Very rarely does soil need more input, especially when pot farmers are concerned.
Soil analyists will tell you to add 5x the amount of phosphorous that is needed because P is so slow to become available to the plant. This can be true for those wanting to grow in dead dirt, but if emplying microbes, then everything becomes more available and you can actually use less than the standard amount (so, 1/8 the amount P that a soil lab would recommend for the initial soil mix, with no spikes/additions later in the grow).
Looking at growing as a chemistry experiment only realizes a protion of what gardening is all about.
Cultivate Nature, and allow Nature to cultivate your garden for you ;-)
Hunter,
Once you get K and Na to a certain point, you need more P. Microbes at that point wont' do the job,they cannot prosper. Trying to fix things in a short term annual crop at the last moment with biology is a tall order and not very likely to succeed.
My farms are organic and I can guarantee you there is no mycorrhizae happening as my K levels are over 500ppm naturally. Any idea how much P is needed to make that soil productive?
I have been an organic farmer for more than 30 years. I out produce nearly all conventional growers.
Biology in my soil? For sure. But that will only get you so far.
We can agree to disagree.
Once you get K and Na to a certain point, you need more P. Microbes at that point wont' do the job,they cannot prosper. Trying to fix things in a short term annual crop at the last moment with biology is a tall order and not very likely to succeed.
My farms are organic and I can guarantee you there is no mycorrhizae happening as my K levels are over 500ppm naturally. Any idea how much P is needed to make that soil productive?
I have been an organic farmer for more than 30 years. I out produce nearly all conventional growers.
Biology in my soil? For sure. But that will only get you so far.
We can agree to disagree.
jidoka,
Depends on the numbers and how far out of whack the numbers really are, hopefully crossed with a leaf analysis to confirm actual plant status.
Depends on the numbers and how far out of whack the numbers really are, hopefully crossed with a leaf analysis to confirm actual plant status.
plantingplants
Active member
So my head is spinning a little. I'd like to go organic but I don't have time for it to break down. Also way too late to do a microbe rain dance and use compost tea
So I'm thinking Calcium Nitrate with MKP and some protein nitrogen. Problem is I don't know where to get calnit locally. Tried all the grow shops. I'm short on time. Leaving tomorrow for 5 days at the worst possible time.
What other form of calcium can I use that I can find locally? I have gypsum but sketched about it.
If I can't find any Ca then I'm going to have to dump a bag of Grow More 6-30-30 mendo which I believe has Ca.
Can I just water with MKP and N and be ok without calcium for 5 days or should i use gypsum?
Thank you mizer. I'll hit you up when I get back.
Slownickel, a close up picture of what, the roots?
I wonder if mulch would have really helped since I think the roots cycle between exploring the top layer of soil and dying from drying and heat. Seems like a waste of resources.
So I'm thinking Calcium Nitrate with MKP and some protein nitrogen. Problem is I don't know where to get calnit locally. Tried all the grow shops. I'm short on time. Leaving tomorrow for 5 days at the worst possible time.
What other form of calcium can I use that I can find locally? I have gypsum but sketched about it.
If I can't find any Ca then I'm going to have to dump a bag of Grow More 6-30-30 mendo which I believe has Ca.
Can I just water with MKP and N and be ok without calcium for 5 days or should i use gypsum?
Thank you mizer. I'll hit you up when I get back.
Slownickel, a close up picture of what, the roots?
I wonder if mulch would have really helped since I think the roots cycle between exploring the top layer of soil and dying from drying and heat. Seems like a waste of resources.
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