How do you maintain the vigor of an IBL?

[VenturaHwy]

really old thread, mainly off topic....

A lot of speculation on the first page.... I have inbreed (backcrossed) to a kush plant I had for many years. I got up to 14 backcrosses to the original female and not once did I see any loss of vigor or any other problems. Plants are not like people or animals, inbreeding is normal in the plant world.

The whole purpose of an IBL is to get rid of the original male used in the first outcross. Your target is the elite female and any other side crosses (f1's f'2's etc) are not your goal.

You either have an elite female which is your target and backcross to it (IBL) or you don't....

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Like most traits we breed for in cannabis, vigor is quantitative. To maintain the variation needed to increase quantitative traits, the simple rule; In each generation, include the largest possible number of staminate and pistilate parents that meet the selection critera.

 

[bloyd]

I really wish Chimera would drop breeding knowledge on the forums like he used to. Thanks for bumping this 3ddream.

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Like most of the traits we breed for in cannabis, vigor is quantitative. To preserve enough variability to improve quantitative traits over time; In each generation, use the most possible numbers of pistillate and staminate parents as meet the selection criteria.

Oops, sorry for the repost, must have been smoking the amnesiabud!

 

[Nirrity]

...If the pool was created using just a couple of individuals, there is no way to repair the pool and keep it pure...

totally dumb here... so say i grew out 1000 of f2 and finally select only those individuals who express the traits i look for in a most excessive manner, say purple coloring/grape taste/paranoia-free heady high/15 weeks flowering limit, so there are only 7 individuals which fall in these restrictions. so does this pool considered as "just a couple individuals"?

thanks!

 

[Darwin]

Nirrity: simple answer: yes. Despite having a a large pool to select from, the effective breeding population size is still 7. In other words, despite there being thousands of plants, only seven passed on their genes to the next generation. The resulting offspring (next generation) only have genes directly from those seven original parents. Situations like this happen quite often in nature, as a matter of fact they are called either the "founder effect" or "bottlenecking". Bottlenecking is simply reducing the effective breeding population size due to some event. The Founder effect usually refers to a small number of individuals founding a new area and therefore all resulting offspring are based off the original founders limited genetics. This can lead to new species, or as is more often the case, increased expression of deleterious recessive alleles. Odd genetic anomalies that have higher than average occurences in isolated Amish communities are a good example of this.

Hope this helped.

 

[DocLeaf]

Q: How do you maintain the vigor of an IBL?

A: use as many males as possible when breeding.

Naturally IBLS are homogeneous and do not display the vigor associated with F1 hybrids

 

[Baba Ku]

Numbers are numbers, and using only multiple males can also rob you of numbers. You need to also use as many females as possible. One male on 5 fem is the same as one female dusted by five males.
(5 vs 25)

 

[McSnappler]

Interesting stuff if you pick through the off topic posts. Given me more of an understanding of how to work gradually towards a specific goal whilst maintaining diversity.

 

[Nirrity]

...the effective breeding population size is still 7. In other words, despite there being thousands of plants, only seven passed on their genes to the next generation...

well.. the things are even worse then because initial F1 were made from just 2 individuals... so the effective breeding population size is 2 ? no?

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

Select primarily for vigour ?

In wild environments where many seeds sprout, only the strongest survive and contribute to the gene pool, if you then include weaklings and the smaller plants into your open pollination that would probably not have survived and bred in the wild, surely you are breeding towards weaker genes, generations of plants with successively less vigour.

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

I think one of the big misconceptions about breeding is that island populations will always suffer from inbreeding depression, and this is just plain not true. Isolated small "island" populations can evolve faster than large ones. If the original population on the island is freer from genetic defects, you'll get a population that is genetically healthier than the one on the mainland. Lethal genes tend to remove themselves from populations over time. On islands, that time is shorter. People who really believe that a strain of cannabis can't be inbred over many generations without losing vigor should really try growing some of my Cherry Bomb from seed. CB has been inbred for at least 15 generations without incross and VIGOR is one of it's most obvious traits.

 

[Darwin]

Nirrity:well.. the things are even worse then because initial F1 were made from just 2 individuals... so the effective breeding population size is 2 ? no?

That would mean the F2's were the result of a effective population of 2, yes.

Mr. Greengenes: I agree that isolated populations can evolve faster, it's allopatric speciation and aside from hybridization in plants, is the main cause for speciation. Your statement about the removal of lethal genes does not take into account non-lethal, but non-desirable traits that may express themselves in higher frequencies due to the founder effect. The main reasons species evolve into a new species when isolated are selection for a new environment and rapid changes in allele frequencies due to the original founders. The other thing to keep in mind is that we are talking about artificial breeding in artificial environments and not natural conditions. Many growers would have the tendency to keep even the most demented plant alive in hopes that it has some redeeming quality. In a natural setting these genetic abnormalities would no doubt swiftly be killed. When it comes down to it, everything is down to the skill of the breeder. Selection and testing those selections makes a world of difference.

Please don't take my post the wrong way, I don't disagree with your original point that strains can be inbred without loss of vigor. I just like discussing these sorts of topics

 

[Silence]

Q: How do you maintain the vigor of an IBL?

A: use as many males as possible when breeding.

Naturally IBLS are homogeneous and do not display the vigor associated with F1 hybrids

its numbers full stop not just males.....

 

[Londinium]

If you start with a small gene pool and incross there is only ever gonna be subtraction of traits from there onwards....especially if plant numbers decrease with each gen. You cant magically add vigour or new positive traits to a line that you weren't happy with in the first place. If you want to create a Vigorous IBL of a strain,it needs to be a vigorous line to begin with...and that means lots of plants in the line are vigorous...and then lots of those are used to breed next gen and on and on. If its not a vigorous line to begin with then extra vigour will only come from an outcross. JBo ;]

 

[Raco]

I´d choose potency over vigour..I don´t want vigorous plants if they are lacking in potency...at least outdoors in my latitude
potency is #1 in my book
I like to use the highest number of (selected) males possible.That saves alleles...

 

[Londinium]

Hello Maitre Menator Good ?
Cross All the good males with All the good females,either Individually marked,cloned and noted so you can easily remember which is which after Prog testing reveals the best donors and recepticle's.If you have 10 each of suitable Boys and girls then collect pollen from all 10 and then individually pollinate all 10 girls with all 10 boys dust(100 branches on 10 diff Females with 10 diff Boys pollen on each of the 10 Girls).....Or just mix the pollen from the 10 boys and then openly pollinate all the girls at once and use trial and error to see which girls produce best stock. I prefer the first method but its lots of space and work and a bunch of cloning... JBo ;]

 

[DocLeaf]

use the highest number of (selected) males possible.That saves alleles...

That's what i was aiming to say ,, just didnt have the words

Good to see you about Raco

 

[DocLeaf]

when someone says to use as many males as possible, does it means mixing the pollens of different males and use with one female ? or does it means one female with one male ?

Use as many plants as possible in the same groups, and let nature happen, if preservation is the aim.
focus on nice male plants where possible. Many growers overlook the importance of male plants.. let alone breeders

peace n flowers

 

[Baba Ku]

Hmmm...

Well, if I have a stellar female that I want to breed with, and I have let's say 15 males that fit the bill of my selection. I now have a possible 15 combination.

Now, if I have five stellar females, and let's say five good male breeders. I now have a possible combination number of 25.

I had three times as many males in the first scenario as in the second. However, the second scenario is a much better outcome due to the NUMBERS. Do we not agree?
Maybe I am missing something what you are all on about with the males?

Alles is well when we counts up da numbers....