How do you maintain the vigor of an IBL?

[Green Fuel]

strainwhore
Be sure i'm very happy about your curiosity on it, but i must be hard with you like you must be hard with your plants selection.

How do you start if you only have 1 mother plant to start with?

You can't. It's a promise of unstable and junkyard strain in the finished IBL product, i'm sorry. You can't made another project than a short term project with this quantity of gens.

But breeding practice is large, and you can consider it exist a serious solution for each breeding needs.

1) You have a female who need to have her vigor information recessive and keep his potency information dominant.

2) You have a male who need to have his vigor information dominant, with colors (don't dream, you're not trained for this... keep your attention on vigor is for me the best way) and need to keep all others information recessive.

1x2) The vigor is always dominant, like height. In cannabis this two type of information are critical for offspring. So your project is a hard way with the material your have, i must do some prevention. It is one of numerous reason who explain herm' are a dominant phenotypes : vigor and best chance to reproduce (mutate is always dominant too, and herm' state is a mutation in fact).

The risk is to lost in F1 the DP phenotype you target, for a new blended version.
For me and with your information, your DP is recessive in all case. You must start a backcrossing management, but with the lack of vigor problem of the female you must forget high pressure backcrossing practice, and open the genotype the maximum you can for find the "false P1" you want, the final couple. Your chance is on a big final selection for this couple, and in this case you must build the material before for optimize your chance and cheat with nature.

You must place all your energy on selective pressure, more than on a long term practice management in my opinion.



It need numerous posts for explain all stage/choices but you must known important things :

Stage 1 will inform you if the project is impossible or possible. If your target can be reached or not. In my opinion, if you fail in this stage, you must buy DP seeds for keep a good tracking of both male and female. This is usefull for known wich parameters carry the phenotype wanted, and known wich parameters (traits in facts) carry the phenotype unwanted.
But certain phenotypes can't be crossed without be eated by the other part, in this case for be sure you must try different experimental cross with others males (only in strains very well known) for dominance/recessivity testing of your female cut.

Keep in mind, females are passive. They build the offspring with the male heritage with theyr own ressources. They don't really mix 50/50, they adapt the male pollen grain information with theyr ressource.

It's for that it is always far better to have a perfect male than a good-female-elite cut. It's for that too,if you see between lines in catalogs, you can find more recurrent males gens than recurrent females gens practice in catalogs. It's more easy to evolve 5 strains with an unique male cut than reverse case.

The selecting process in vigor is very easy to apply. Just see the best resistant phenotype from the germ to the flowering stage. You don't need to keep all.

But for the DP phenotype, you must keep all to the flowering stage. It can be hard to manage on small spaces. In this cases you must launch multiples runs and get big amount of photography of each specimens separatly for keep tracking. It's the minimum.

...reworking the same tired old lines, whittling down the same genetics year after year and spreading them en mass ( even using good numbers to select from its still the same old same old)...

It's my point of view too, moonunit.

But i known too 1 customer on 10 (on selling side view only) is interrested by the gens quality, or by the genpool. It's not a good or a sufficient pressure for make changes by demand maybe.

The lack of honesty in the gens used for create new strains... in my opinion too, is the key. The most prefer keep abstract theyr material source, or write "secret strain", because the entire quality of theyr work is on the strain choice only, not skills. They feel fear to be copied lol, for me it's an honor. Different point of view...

For example, DC. What trait(s) is it that is specific and unobtainable in other plants?
Vigor? Yield? Potency? Disease or pest resistance? Someone would have to show me what those traits are that warrant the plant being continually bred and crossed into the gene pool.

You can breed the Skunk#1 for create a skunk purple strain... it exist no limits, just human limits.

 

[Guest]

silverback - I follow what you're saying. That is what I keep saying about the elites - short of phenotype selection, they are just the same old genes.

 

[Raco]

This is an interesting discussion and one that is needed. I do want to emphasize that my comments are for those purposes and not as personal attack on anyone.

Althoug it is certanly not the only one, the strain Deep Chunk offers a perfect example of how a breeding situation can really get off track.
Clearly, those breeding the strain over time, care deeply about it and have continued to breed and cross it. Then for whatever reason, they recieve immense encouragement and praise by those surrounding them or here on the forums, so naturally they continue to breed it proudly. Love and encouragement is what we all seek.

A compounding problem to that is what i believe to be an obsession with preserving "landraces", perhaps at any cost. At one time the plant,(DC), was excellent, but has been mishandled during its life to the point that it has become genetically weak and is no longer the plant it started out to be. If an afghani farmer were to sow DC this spring for his crop he would be sorely disappointed by the outcome. Its my view there is no possibility of perserving the original strain, because it disappeared many generations ago.

The obsession with preserving a strain often overtakes the real goal of isolating and perserving the traits that the strain exhibits. Its my view that the traits expressed by a strain are often available in other plants that do not carry genetic problems..
For example, DC. What trait(s) is it that is specific and unobtainable in other plants?
Vigor? Yield? Potency? Disease or pest resistance? Someone would have to show me what those traits are that warrant the plant being continually bred and crossed into the gene pool.

Finally, I have a concern that inferior genes will get mixed into our gene pool with negative consequences, without anyone really knowing it. If today, we removed every cannabis strain that possessed NL, skunk or Blueberry, there wouldn't be many strains left and many strains would disappear that we had no idea those genes were even in the plant.

Just me talkin, and probably too much.
sb

yeah,too much...
Post your DC pics...
Here are mine
you haven´t seen a real deal DC..have you??

 

[ElectroSticky]

:jawdrop:

 

[Guest]

Hi Raco
I wish we could have these conversations without you feeling the need to be insulting. I don't think less of you because you have a different view than I do.

I grew DC about 4 yrs ago I guess and I didn't take pictures at the time. Like everyone who has been growing and moving marijuana around for years, Ive spent a considerable amount of time in jail. Documenting my illegial activity by providing photographic evidence is not something Im naturally inclined to do. It has only been the last few months that I have inched out onto this thin ice and I am very uncomfortable. Im still questioning my own judgement of this clearly foolish and misguided activity as Im not a newbie and should no better. Its only my desire to communicate with others about cannabis that has urged me forward.

Your DC's look good, and I have never stated that if one wanted to spend the time to veg it for prolonged periods, you couldn't pull out decent plants. I have 2 complaints with DC.

1. It was sold to me for 80$, with no real mention that it was so lethargic and gentically weak or that the potential for harvesting anything resembling a reasonable harvest on Oct. 1was unlikely at best. I purchased the seeds with the intent of getting 5 females and harvesting a couple lbs of weed I don't care whos growing it, if you start the plants on may 1, it will be July before you can even transplant the plant. I expect plants to look like this by mid june.





2. I wouldn't say anything about it still if people were just growing it, but they're not, their breeding it
After cracking 2 packs of DC and finding numberous pathologies. I was sent Powerhouse by the breeder who seems like a decent and honest fellow, as a replacement. Powerhouse was a decent plant and potent, but it expressed a lethargy that clearly emminated from the DC genes and I have no doubt that any cross would exhibit some degree of lethargy and genetic anomilies.

Recently, I noticed a new company that was proudly breeding DC with every plant they had. When questioned about the potential for seeing significant genetic problems, they stated that they had not grown out large numbers of the plants, but hadnt noticed any problems in the few plants grown in an entirely artificial enviroment. Anyone growing any number of DC plants from seed are going to see serious lethargy at best, to irregular growth and hermaphroditism. I grew it, Ive grown thousands of plants over the years and I don't need a second to my conclusions. I know them to be fact. I also know it to be fact that you must grow significant numbers of plants at some point when breeding any plant, cannabis or otherwise. I see growers breeding DC to every strain under the sun. That's a mistake in my view. I realize others have a different view, but i don't think any less of them because of it.

 

[TheOneWill]

I got this bag seed plant and I topped it well I tried spreading the branches. Well it split the middle trunk of the plant. I hope it will be alright.

 

[Stoned Cold]

So when it comes to males use em all, just mix the collected pollen by shaking it all up together in a jar and hitting your females with it.

To each his own, my friend.

By using this technique, you've taken out one of the most important steps IMO. By letting nature choose the breeding pollen, you're slowly but surely working AWAY from the good recessive genes. I always cull the quickest flowering, and most vigorous males. Then move to a more detailed selection.

Choose your males wisely, they are the key to succusful breeding IMO.

 

[Raco]

the thin ice of a new day

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=JDosgkws0-c

maybe you worked with poor selections??
Mine proved excellent FYI :wink:

 

[moonunit]

Hi stoned cold
I have to agree and disagree with u m8. Whilst i wont get into the whole male selection debate again ( done it to death at the old cw), i will explain my opinon.
Ok first i agree, male selection is the most likely the most important part of cannabis breeding, but it is for this reason that we shouldnt engage in selecting males unless we truely have insight into what we are doing, other wise precious genetic material can be left behind.
It is a consensus that progeny testing is the only true way to evaluate a males breeding potential, u may have good results by eye but no where near what progeny testing can tell u about the traits a male will pass to his female progeny and in the end all cannabis( drug) breeding is done to produce superior females, be it in 1 or 20 gens of a breeding program.
The main point is what if the male that actualy produces the best female progeny, doesnt fit your very very basic selection criteria, and is not passed to the next generation or more so the male whos female progeny are the most potent. And imho no structural tendancies, rubbed stem smells ect can tell u 100% on things like potency or type of high ect.
Selecting for a recessive structure can be usefull in specific breeding situations i admit but not as a part of a general breeding program.
So imho first choice is progeny testing , but it takes immence ammounts of resources and time to do, so i suggested the next best option for general breeding programs with cannabis, the no male selection technique. I most certainly didnt come up with it either, a more detailed description was written by the person whom i first seen using it on cannabis, sly of the bros grimm. Do a search and im sure its posted here on icmag somewhere. As i siad though i do believe in the importance of male selection, just if u cant be 100% sure u wont leave behind some very important genetic info its best to leave the selection and just select on the female side. I didnt comeback to reignite this VERY old topic lol and this is just mho
Much respect
Moonunit

 

[Guest]

Raco - I'm gonna have to go with silverback on this one. I grew a pack of Deep Chunk purchased through SeedBay from OGBub just before he got popped and the beans went for $1500.

I have never grown a slower vegging plant ever. I have grown out dozens of breeder packs, hundreds of bagseed, hundreds if not thousands more of my own accidental or otherwise crosses. I repeat, I have never grown out a slower vegging plant.

In comparison, "Granddaddy (green unless you grow in the arctic) Purple" is a vigorous beast. DC is almost impossible to clone, there is no stretch in flower - which means you have to run it by itself, and the yield is piss-poor.

The positives that have kept it in my personal stable = the plants turn a lovely shade of purple, albeit in cooler temperatures, and the smoke is hands down the killer. More potent than anything I have ever smoked. Blows everything else away.

Why I want to include it in my personal breeding program - purple hues, large fan leaves which when given proper vigor will give way to larger yields, mutations that are just cool and potency that is unrivaled. Given proper breeding, I think vigor could be brought back to this strain. Someone just have to give it the numbers it deserves.

 

[Hindu Killer]

Interesting points of veiw and experience's. I myself have seen lines degenerate first hand to sloppy /unknowledgable breeding practices. And unfortunatley there are those whom are in it just to exploit etc. And then there are those of us...whom live and breath this plant and our hobbie. my first go with DC was very pleasant.....very nice ghani plants. And I enjoyed the experience very much..thx again friend. I think there are alot of batches of DC out there/on here. One needs to sort threw them.

 

[Hindu Killer]

2 ibl's

2 ibl's

Deep Chunk











And PTK













And the source

 

[Raco]

. DC is almost impossible to clone .

What??????
I don´t even need hormones to root mine!!
I have rooted cuts taken from flowering girls...w/o hormones
I veg my DC´s 8 weeks indoors,and flower them 8 weeks,9 max.

 

[Stoned Cold]

Moonunit; I hear what you're saying. Thank you for explaining your logic a bit further, if not for me than the people who are considering taking on a project.
I do agree that with no real opinion/eval. you may be better of to take the 'median' so to say.

 

[Guest]

You know HK and Raco, I believe you may be right when you say there are different lines of it or something. Its possible I suppose that someone has a line that was well treated and taken care of and then it was passed out to others mishandled and distributed it. That could explain a number of things. I never considered that possibility.

Raco, I grew out 20 seeds and I didn't have a plant that looked like yours. In fact, hell, I had 2 phenos! And everytime I see someone with a good grow of it, the first thing that i think is "are they growin the same stuff I grew? I know HK likes it and the seeds I grew Im not sure how anybody could like.

that's interesting.

 

[Guest]

Raco - who's Deep Chunk? I got OgBubs - NOT TOM HILLS.

This may make a huge difference.

 

[Raco]

You know HK and Raco, I believe you may be right when you say there are different lines of it or something. Its possible I suppose that someone has a line that was well treated and taken care of and then it was passed out to others mishandled and distributed it. That could explain a number of things. I never considered that possibility.

Raco, I grew out 20 seeds and I didn't have a plant that looked like yours. In fact, hell, I had 2 phenos! And everytime I see someone with a good grow of it, the first thing that i think is "are they growin the same stuff I grew? I know HK likes it and the seeds I grew Im not sure how anybody could like.

that's interesting.

silverback,
No hard feelings at all :smile:
I´m one of the (relatively) very few that got the seeds straight from "the man".And more than once btw...
The fn+1 that I made were better than expected....(just ask around if you don´t believe me).The fn+2 made by others (and derived from my selection) are /were good as well.
The ones were working with right now are "exceptional" so to speak

 

[Raco]

Raco - who's Deep Chunk? I got OgBubs - NOT TOM HILLS.

This may make a huge difference.

I haven´t tryed bub´s gear.Don´t ask me...looks good,it´s all I can say

...blue blue windows behind the stars...


Baby can you hear me now?

Thank you Raco, for introducing this plant to friends of yours.

It looks like a well grown & beautiful selection Teresa.

Love,

Tom

 

[XyZ]

Raco did a great job with the fn selections & sharing the results. he is a true amigo... and he is correct about cloning this afghani. it's so simple that i have to laugh when i see others putting themselves in the noob corner (hence dc is hard to clone...or impossible lmao The reveg from a nearly-matured chunky is an other story.

& Dc is not even veggin slow, but just growing different. she grows probably the largest leaves on this rock, very thick main stems (especially outdoorz) and strong roots as well. like Tom already said some time ago, the overall dc-biomass can be much the same (or potentially bigger than on many hybrids ...and my little observations are proving this point. lot's of pics in my gallery, i'm just to lazy now for searching and don't even feel the need to put them up again'

DC is definitely pure and something special, luv the flavor cuz it's really unique. yields are how they are, depending on the grower but generally not for the commercial corner. makes incredible dense nugs though with wonderful purple shadowz. perfect breeding parent imo.

Tom also said the plants in this line are much the same as 20 years ago... and it is logical cuz the humans can not change much the genetic structure from a million yearz old hashplant. this plant reminds me on jurassic park hehe. they are obviously well-adapted for the afghani region and have their own style of growing. 20 years are not long and actually a very short % of time for making any big changes in a pure line, at least with the traditionally breeding arts (the new gen manipulations are an other story

Vigor is relatively equal each generation ime. a few local friends produced the fn+3 from my fn+2 seeds... and the chunky looks/growz the same speed like racos fn+1
have some Tom chunks (fn) growing this year and one plant has some irregularities ...but i'm not scared cuz i know this little anomalies on the leaves are not bad if we are lookin for the resin, it seems like this traits are usually linked. can't wait to see what the flowers will show me in late summer.

finally, breeding for better vigor will not necessary result in more happy smokerz, as the fast-growing and big yielding phenos are often inferior in the trichome production, which is the ultimate goal for the quality lover. so first a person has to know in which corner he belongs... and than make the decision in what way do you really want to improve the cannabis of yore.

huh this post is long eh? was typing so fast that my dc joint stopped burning lolzor... now it calls "light me up"

 

[Hindu Killer]

Ill be sure to make sure you get some of the better seeds this fall SB! When I see the prices this line has fetched....I cant help but laugh out loud. Its really a matter of makeing some friends. Peace!