K
KnightRueben
very interesting. I thought 40% perlite was pretty standard for FFOF
nope, soft water as in it's classified as "soft" by the district I live in, ie low heavy mineral concentration
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very interesting. I thought 40% perlite was pretty standard for FFOF
nope, soft water as in it's classified as "soft" by the district I live in, ie low heavy mineral concentration
darookie2000
Member
Exactly - basically, if you mix too much perlite into the soil, when you water, the perlite floats to the top of some point (usually just below the rootball), and when you let the cup dry out completely, the perlite layer will have been dry for quite a while, and the roots die back when they hit the aerated perlite layer. Watering by weight is good if the soil is relatively uniform, but in this case, they hit dry air and die. In other words, the cup still feels heavy because the bottom is still wet, but the roots can't get all the way down there, and it may be too low to wick enough moisture to keep the roots alive.
This could THEORETICALLY be what's happening. I'm not saying it definitely is, but if it was, this could be why it looks underwatered, despite the fact that the cup is heavy still. It's a dry pocket that stops the roots from growing all the way down. Transplant when they are ready (probably okay now), and when you do, check out the profile of the soil (assuming it stays mostly intact) to see if there's a big layer of perlite a couple inches down. HTH!
K
KnightRueben
well it's a good theory but curious to me for a few reasons:
1) if it was underwatered by any means, induced by a layer of perlite blocking roots included, wouldn't watering it improve things instead of make things worse? I watered it 12+ hours ago now, and it's not improving (yet?)
2) if it was underwatered, shouldn't it show a more "wilted" look? I have seen an underwatered plant first hand before, and it was more wilted than drooping - if that makes sense
3) I don't know if you can see from the pics of the bottom that I posted, but if you peer into the holes you can still see a healthy amount of perlite mixed in with the soil at the very bottom of the cup
just some concerns that I have about your thoery - I definitely will transplant soon and take a look at that possibility. I did a quick search again though, and it seems most mix FFOF with perlite at 40% or even more
thanks for posting and detailing what you said!
1) if it was underwatered by any means, induced by a layer of perlite blocking roots included, wouldn't watering it improve things instead of make things worse? I watered it 12+ hours ago now, and it's not improving (yet?)
2) if it was underwatered, shouldn't it show a more "wilted" look? I have seen an underwatered plant first hand before, and it was more wilted than drooping - if that makes sense
3) I don't know if you can see from the pics of the bottom that I posted, but if you peer into the holes you can still see a healthy amount of perlite mixed in with the soil at the very bottom of the cup
just some concerns that I have about your thoery - I definitely will transplant soon and take a look at that possibility. I did a quick search again though, and it seems most mix FFOF with perlite at 40% or even more
thanks for posting and detailing what you said!
ohh i like that theory. ive had a few similar looking young plants when they llose a large amount of the roots, leaves droop and leaves start becoming yellow. root hairs die fairly easily if let in dry soil too long of if left in waterlogged soil. if you were only watering every 5-7 days with 40% perlite, theres no way those pockets of perlite would stay moist, theyd dry out and many days of air and dryness on those root hairs would shrivel and die.
id like to bet if you were to transplant rite now youd have a lot of dead root material and a very small root ball right below the plant.
my underwatered outdoor plants dont look wilted, they just drop leaves like theyre too heavy, wilted look would be excessive underwating after a longer period of time. 5-7 days of no watering in your medium would result in underwatering i would think, root hairs die and plant drops leaves. i cant explain the watering not improving the plant besides the fact that if the new root mass died the plant would look undernourished for a day or two while the plant recovers and stress relieves.
transplant, less perlite if you like, and buy sum superthrive or thrivealive, its like root steroids, makes roots very resiliant to stress and grow like mad, good stuff for a stressed plant or a young plant, smooth transition always when using the stuff.
after transplant keep us posted. id use less perlite, less run off and thus less watering. 40% is quite a bit.
superthrive will make a huge difference in vigor and resiliance
id like to bet if you were to transplant rite now youd have a lot of dead root material and a very small root ball right below the plant.
my underwatered outdoor plants dont look wilted, they just drop leaves like theyre too heavy, wilted look would be excessive underwating after a longer period of time. 5-7 days of no watering in your medium would result in underwatering i would think, root hairs die and plant drops leaves. i cant explain the watering not improving the plant besides the fact that if the new root mass died the plant would look undernourished for a day or two while the plant recovers and stress relieves.
transplant, less perlite if you like, and buy sum superthrive or thrivealive, its like root steroids, makes roots very resiliant to stress and grow like mad, good stuff for a stressed plant or a young plant, smooth transition always when using the stuff.
after transplant keep us posted. id use less perlite, less run off and thus less watering. 40% is quite a bit.
superthrive will make a huge difference in vigor and resiliance
BurmeseDragon
Member
Obviously it's a test, perlite!
A lot about a program, it's not good to be on ONE! I've found that some tricks work better than others. I am a bit discouraged about not making my own soil, but I am in a good condition...a bit sad, kinda mad!
Starting seeds in plugs, seems to be better very wet and a little soil for cover.
A lot about a program, it's not good to be on ONE! I've found that some tricks work better than others. I am a bit discouraged about not making my own soil, but I am in a good condition...a bit sad, kinda mad!
Starting seeds in plugs, seems to be better very wet and a little soil for cover.
K
KnightRueben
Here's an update all.
The good news is the drooping subsided a bit:
The bad news is that there are black spots all over the entire plant now. This is approximately 12 hours after the last pictures were taken.
I'd like to just scrap this grow and move on, but I'm really kinda iffy on that because I have not a fucking clue what I did wrong. I'm close to ripping the plant apart and trying to see if the theory about a layer of perlite blocking root development, or roots drying out is true.
Or maybe I truly want to rip it apart because this is my second failed grow and I haven't blazed in 3 months
The good news is the drooping subsided a bit:
The bad news is that there are black spots all over the entire plant now. This is approximately 12 hours after the last pictures were taken.
I'd like to just scrap this grow and move on, but I'm really kinda iffy on that because I have not a fucking clue what I did wrong. I'm close to ripping the plant apart and trying to see if the theory about a layer of perlite blocking root development, or roots drying out is true.
Or maybe I truly want to rip it apart because this is my second failed grow and I haven't blazed in 3 months
Yep.... takes a bit for the seedling to get started but they look a lot like most of the straight miracle grow threads.
K
KnightRueben
Wouldn't it have shown signs of burn earlier than 13 days if it was too hot? I really don't know the answer to that.
Also, there is no yellowing...just drooping and necrosis. That is what is most confusing here to me. Overfert = yellow tips, no? Or some kind of yellowing...or at least I thought? (from Stichs' thread)
Also, there is no yellowing...just drooping and necrosis. That is what is most confusing here to me. Overfert = yellow tips, no? Or some kind of yellowing...or at least I thought? (from Stichs' thread)
E
EvilTwin
Hi KR,
I'm a little confused too after reading the thread. Nute burn usually causes some discoloration at the edges and tips. Browning leading to necrosis. But seedlings react differently sometimes. Hot soil often causes twisting leaves and a generally mutant appearing plant that eventually grows out. You didn't have that.
As a last ditch effort, you could remove the plants from that media...gently bare-root them and put them in some mild starter soil.
Peace,
ET
I'm a little confused too after reading the thread. Nute burn usually causes some discoloration at the edges and tips. Browning leading to necrosis. But seedlings react differently sometimes. Hot soil often causes twisting leaves and a generally mutant appearing plant that eventually grows out. You didn't have that.
As a last ditch effort, you could remove the plants from that media...gently bare-root them and put them in some mild starter soil.
Peace,
ET
Years ago I used a brand of potting soil called "Hyponex" Out of the seeds that I planted.... several died right away. The ones that survived were going great for a week or so and then started looking exactly like yours do now. Classic.
I'd look for a nice organic seedling mix and add about a third of that by volume to your current soil/perlite mixture.
K
KnightRueben
Thanks for the kind words all, and thanks for all who stepped up and answered my continued prodding questions. I think this is a learning journey more than anything.
As for these gals - they have worsened considerably overnight. I will be transplanting them into some softer soil as suggested after I take a trip to the hydro store in the next day or two. I'll use a little bit less perlite.
I'll take some pics of what the roots look like from the outside after I cut the cups down, without the flash ofc, for the sake of "medical science!"
As for these gals - they have worsened considerably overnight. I will be transplanting them into some softer soil as suggested after I take a trip to the hydro store in the next day or two. I'll use a little bit less perlite.
I'll take some pics of what the roots look like from the outside after I cut the cups down, without the flash ofc, for the sake of "medical science!"
K
KnightRueben
I just went through the transplant process. As suggested, I went ahead and purchased an organic soil mix that is very light. It is called "Fafards all purpose potting mix," and contains only Canadian spaghnum peat moss, vermiculite, and perlite. According to the store owner, it contains no ferts whatsoever.
Two of the girls transplanted very easily. They both appeared to have somewhat healthy root masses. I just cut the cups away, and placed them into square pots containing the new Fafards.
One of the girls had an absolutely terrible root system. So bad, in fact, that when I cut away the red solo cup - she fell apart in my hands. Really took me by surprise considering her size. Hopefully I didn't damage any roots, but I was able to re-plant her carefully without much of the Ocean Forest.
I'll update the thread in a few days with pics. I was so shocked at my one girl falling apart that I sadly wasn't able to get pics of the root systems. But I'll drop a line in here soon for the sake of knowledge.
Two of the girls transplanted very easily. They both appeared to have somewhat healthy root masses. I just cut the cups away, and placed them into square pots containing the new Fafards.
One of the girls had an absolutely terrible root system. So bad, in fact, that when I cut away the red solo cup - she fell apart in my hands. Really took me by surprise considering her size. Hopefully I didn't damage any roots, but I was able to re-plant her carefully without much of the Ocean Forest.
I'll update the thread in a few days with pics. I was so shocked at my one girl falling apart that I sadly wasn't able to get pics of the root systems. But I'll drop a line in here soon for the sake of knowledge.
dyno
Member
D
dillhole
Good luck! I bet they'll do fine now.
DH
DH
Hash Man
Member
IME with root systems that were once thriving and then died off, this means that my medium was let to dry out alot... then when watered, i watered til runoff, but did not realize that only the top and outer edges of the medium were soaked....the middle was bone dry, hence the crappy roots (the medium should have been soaked slower)... i used to have issues like this when using clear beer cups...but now that i switched to red, i am good to go.there is a product called hygrozyme that works well for seedlings and root issues... check it out. its like a handicapp in bowling, it puts u ahead of the game. anywho... i dont see how your plant could need an environment without nutes....might want to rethink that one and add a weak solution...good luck tho
darookie2000
Member
Great, let's hope that does the trick! Roots excelurator or rhizotonic might be a good addition or some compost tea (much cheaper than the other two options) - I use Vermi T. Some soluble myco like Oregonism xl might help your root growth too.
Good luck!
southpaw
Member
Kind of late to this thread to offer any help, but I just went through a two week period with some seedlings in coco, and a PH mistake had the worst affected ones looking exactly like your original pictures. And since this was in coco cut with perlite, I was especially shocked to see the "overwatering" look. When this happens, I've also noticed the plants get a smell to them that I can only describe as "angry". It's a sharper, more pungent version of the usual "healthy vegetation" smell.
I think what we are seeing is technically a lockout/ deficiency of calcium and phosphorous. Root growth slows drastically, making the medium seem like it never dries out, and the leaves look small and stunted. If the visible part of the plant isn't growing, the roots aren't doing much better. Calcium is essential to tissue function in leaves (and the growth of root tips), and it's a difficult macroelement for the plant to translocate. So they droop, and it takes time to rebuild to a healthy concentration.
Patience and flushing with an appropriate PH has mine growing normally again. I also cut the lights back to 18/6 (I normally run 20/4) and moved the weakest looking plants to the very edge of the light footprint until they showed signs of recovery. The first sign is seeing the leaves begin to rise and fall with the day/ night cycle, and then eventually the growing tip perks up again.
My guess is that even with an eye on your PH, the FFOF was just too much for seedlings.
I hope the transplant helps! Give them time, it might take a week to see progress.
I think what we are seeing is technically a lockout/ deficiency of calcium and phosphorous. Root growth slows drastically, making the medium seem like it never dries out, and the leaves look small and stunted. If the visible part of the plant isn't growing, the roots aren't doing much better. Calcium is essential to tissue function in leaves (and the growth of root tips), and it's a difficult macroelement for the plant to translocate. So they droop, and it takes time to rebuild to a healthy concentration.
Patience and flushing with an appropriate PH has mine growing normally again. I also cut the lights back to 18/6 (I normally run 20/4) and moved the weakest looking plants to the very edge of the light footprint until they showed signs of recovery. The first sign is seeing the leaves begin to rise and fall with the day/ night cycle, and then eventually the growing tip perks up again.
My guess is that even with an eye on your PH, the FFOF was just too much for seedlings.
I hope the transplant helps! Give them time, it might take a week to see progress.
I thought you were cussing him out AHAHHAHA.
Spicoli is probably right, transplant them using just plain water as FFOF is pretty strong
