Wally, HOW exactly are you defining 'hermie weed'?
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Because I agree 100% that true hermorphadite plants should not be bred. I do not agree that every female plant that shows a male flower or two under ceritan circumstances is a hermorphadite.
G
Guest
Wally, as far as smoking good herb goes, I've been toking for forty years and have come across some pretty good herb in my day and Strawberry D and Chemdog stand up to the best period.
That's a good point Grat3ful about the survival mechanism. I don't think that you're pushing an agenda, we're just having an interesting exchange of ideas. It's all good Bro.
That's a good point Grat3ful about the survival mechanism. I don't think that you're pushing an agenda, we're just having an interesting exchange of ideas. It's all good Bro.
KingRalph said:ay definitely Tom, i do agree. wasn't postin that to prove or disprove anythin, just wanted to show iti wouldn't consider the plant at the point of doing that a hermaphrodite either. all plants have the survival mechanism we speak of that comes out as a hermaphroditic tendancy in times of duress, so to me, a hermaphrodite is one at the point of no return, so to speak. fooling around with my feminized seeds has clued me in a great deal to the different traits they can exhibit of these underlying hermaphrodite tendancies that seem to just be at a varying degree of recessiveness in all plants waiting to be brought out for survival.
so like you say Tom, i wouldn't consider any plant that does what my pic showed intersexed, as i mentioned, no pollen sacs were made during it's lifecycle. on other feminizeds it's mentioned that sometimes a single male pollen sac will sprout at the onset of flowering, but no more, only female flowers. i wouldn't call that intersexed. only when it's that, from the start male and female flower sprouting would i consider a plant a true hermaphrodite, from birth... intersexed dioecious
personally, for making feminizeds i would not use a plant that is easily made to give male flowers, the more resilient to that trait the better an i think the stronger and less likely the feminizeds will be to changing then also, as the trait then seems to have a more recessive level. but i'm just a hack haha i'll keep listening to you fellas
great post, BTW Ralph...
G
guest123
mmm survival .. sure thats what i t is ,, but also a case of purety frm what i can tell too ..
have seen many a female plant grow alone , choose its sex and stay like that ,, alone and seedless ..
what are they ??????????
have seen many a female plant grow alone , choose its sex and stay like that ,, alone and seedless ..
what are they ??????????
G
guest123
obvious to me ,, u can find cannabis that will not hermie and still produce excellent herb ,, why do u need lines that will hermie ,, just cause we found traits we like .. mmm is it our choosing or the cannabis then ????
G
guest123
keeep looking , id say ,, u want to make cash from the seeds , or truely make the strains worth growing ?????????????????
G
guest123
how many plants are u guys growing to debate this scenario .... ???????????????????
Proper terminology
Proper terminology
IMHO
would be bi-sexual...
I have had around 4 or 5 so far this year.
Most just have random pistillate on a predominate staminate subject.
They have all gone to the burn pile except my g-13 male which reversed to female...
And a stinkyxsour diesel which was equal in ratio for staminate/pistillate dominance...It was allowed to mature (set apart from the real garden BTW)
and even has a few maturre seeds but mostly immature ones....
The seeds hit the trash can as soon as the weed gets burned..
I must agree as to potency as well, the sourxstinky subject is quite potent- and has one of the most interesting smells i have come across.
I'm considering keeping a jar around to just sneak a sniff out of once in awhile- that kinda interesting.....
I have a colombian black phenotype from stinky f2 which has sterile bannana pisillate action..This particular subject sends growth shoots in veg out as mature budded areas get close to maturity.
Like a big veg shoot will come around under the budded plant and begins to veg as the rest of the plant matures.
So i harvested the mature bud, now the first vegging area has gone to budding, and new growth shoots are coming from the trimmed area.
It actually has some buds mauturing, and some finishing a stretch.
So outdoor in the sierra nevada she currently has 3 stages of growth.
Veg ,preflower, and bud.
So sterile pistillate action is not a concern in this subject,the strangest plant i ever grew...
I wonder if cuttings would act the same way outdoors....
tie
Proper terminology
IMHO
would be bi-sexual...
I have had around 4 or 5 so far this year.
Most just have random pistillate on a predominate staminate subject.
They have all gone to the burn pile except my g-13 male which reversed to female...
And a stinkyxsour diesel which was equal in ratio for staminate/pistillate dominance...It was allowed to mature (set apart from the real garden BTW)
and even has a few maturre seeds but mostly immature ones....
The seeds hit the trash can as soon as the weed gets burned..
I must agree as to potency as well, the sourxstinky subject is quite potent- and has one of the most interesting smells i have come across.
I'm considering keeping a jar around to just sneak a sniff out of once in awhile- that kinda interesting.....
I have a colombian black phenotype from stinky f2 which has sterile bannana pisillate action..This particular subject sends growth shoots in veg out as mature budded areas get close to maturity.
Like a big veg shoot will come around under the budded plant and begins to veg as the rest of the plant matures.
So i harvested the mature bud, now the first vegging area has gone to budding, and new growth shoots are coming from the trimmed area.
It actually has some buds mauturing, and some finishing a stretch.
So outdoor in the sierra nevada she currently has 3 stages of growth.
Veg ,preflower, and bud.
So sterile pistillate action is not a concern in this subject,the strangest plant i ever grew...
I wonder if cuttings would act the same way outdoors....
tie
I'm not advocating breeding with hermies... You must not have read everyting I've written... I don't think you should breed with hermies... I also don't think you've ever given us your definition of hermie... Any plant that can be made to show flowers of the opposite sex? Plants that show flowers of the opposite sex outdoors during a normal growing season? Plants that show male and female flowers from day 1 of preflower?
I'm not trying to argue with you, just understand exactly where you are coming from... I agree that hermies should not be bred... We're just trying to nail down the definition of hermie...
In all reality a hermie is a plant with X and Y chromosome problems.
In all reality some reversals are due only to hormone production related to streses.
Plants with Chromosome problems should not be kept.
Plants that may produce hormones under some circumstances which cause flowers of the opposite sex to appear are not hermorphadites and their use should be judged on a plant by plant basis. It's not like a line cannot be worked to limit or exclude that tendency over several generations, through selection of the individuals with the most stress tolerence.
I'm not trying to argue with you, just understand exactly where you are coming from... I agree that hermies should not be bred... We're just trying to nail down the definition of hermie...
In all reality a hermie is a plant with X and Y chromosome problems.
In all reality some reversals are due only to hormone production related to streses.
Plants with Chromosome problems should not be kept.
Plants that may produce hormones under some circumstances which cause flowers of the opposite sex to appear are not hermorphadites and their use should be judged on a plant by plant basis. It's not like a line cannot be worked to limit or exclude that tendency over several generations, through selection of the individuals with the most stress tolerence.
Obviously, just from the fact that I release only around one fifth of the crosses I make... and will continue to work a line untill I think it is ready to be released even though people are willing to pay for the intermediate steps... would seem to indicate that quality of product and my reputation are much more important than seed money... the money I make from seed sales is less than 10% of my income and not really a factor, or I'd have a dozen crosses listed up, eh?wallyduck said:
Seems like a hell of an insinuation to make, just because I want to discuss the wisdom or lack thereof of culling every reversable plant. I hope maybe I'm not catching your tone right, and completely misunderstood that post...
I have no love for them either & am still getting over the headache caused by a certain Malawi introduction into my neighborhood 20 years back. So, when folks come out strongly against I certainly understand where they're coming from. However I feel we must also be careful not to shoot ourselves in the foot as well.
Hypothetical situation:
We grow out 1000 Thai seeds & the top 10 regarding quality of smoke all have the ability to produce a few seeds on their own. What is the best course of action? Do we shitcan these individuals in favor of true females of lessor quality? Or, do we temporarily accept their imperfections & try to deal with their undesirable traits further down the road? The easy answer is to do both or plant another thousand but this may also interfere with our other responsibilities etc, & in reality may not always be an option.
The Chem & Trainwreck lines are two good examples of plants that have the ability to make seeds on their own. I believe these are fixed & prepotent in their valuable traits for this very reason. Should we not cross breed them even though a bit of progeny testing would locate pollen that masked this undesirable trait? Should we not grow them though we find 1 seed per ounce to be quite tolerable?
My primary goal is to have & produce the best that i can & i feel it would be a big mistake not to keep an open mind regarding intersex plants, & particularly those of exceptional quality.
Hypothetical situation:
We grow out 1000 Thai seeds & the top 10 regarding quality of smoke all have the ability to produce a few seeds on their own. What is the best course of action? Do we shitcan these individuals in favor of true females of lessor quality? Or, do we temporarily accept their imperfections & try to deal with their undesirable traits further down the road? The easy answer is to do both or plant another thousand but this may also interfere with our other responsibilities etc, & in reality may not always be an option.
The Chem & Trainwreck lines are two good examples of plants that have the ability to make seeds on their own. I believe these are fixed & prepotent in their valuable traits for this very reason. Should we not cross breed them even though a bit of progeny testing would locate pollen that masked this undesirable trait? Should we not grow them though we find 1 seed per ounce to be quite tolerable?
My primary goal is to have & produce the best that i can & i feel it would be a big mistake not to keep an open mind regarding intersex plants, & particularly those of exceptional quality.
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Very well said, Tom... and the entirety of my point.TomHill said:
I agree with you 100%.
Good point Tom!
here´s Clarke´s take:
"However, a cross can be made which will produce nearly all pistillate or staminate individuals. If the proper pistillate hermaphrodite plant is selected as the pollen-parent and a pure pistillate plant is selected as the seed-parent it is possible to produce an F1, and subsequent generations, of nearly all pistillate offspring. The proper pistillate hermaphrodite pollen-parent is one which has grown as a pure pistillate plant and at the end of the sea son, or under artificial environmental stress, begins to develop a very few staminate flowers. If pollen from these few staminate flowers forming on a pistillate plant is applied to a pure pistillate seed parent, the resulting F1 generation should be almost all pistillate with only a few pistillate hermaphrodites. This will also be the case if the selected pistillate hermaphrodite pollen source is selfed and bears its own seeds. Remember that a selfed hermaphrodite gives rise to more hermaphrodites, but a selfed pistillate plant that has given rise to a limited number of staminate flowers in response to environmental stresses should give rise to nearly all pistillate offspring. The F1 offspring may have a slight tendency to produce a few staminate flowers under further environmental stress and these are used to produce F2 seed. A monoecious strain produces 95+% plants with many pistillate and staminate flowers, but a dioecious strain produces 95+% pure pistillate or staminate plants. A plant from a dioecious strain with a few inter sexual flowers is a pistillate or staminate hermaphrodite. Therefore, the difference between monoecism and hermaphrodism is one of degree, determined by genetics and environment"
"Therefore, the difference between monoecism and hermaphrodism is one of degree, determined by genetics and environment"
here´s Clarke´s take:
"However, a cross can be made which will produce nearly all pistillate or staminate individuals. If the proper pistillate hermaphrodite plant is selected as the pollen-parent and a pure pistillate plant is selected as the seed-parent it is possible to produce an F1, and subsequent generations, of nearly all pistillate offspring. The proper pistillate hermaphrodite pollen-parent is one which has grown as a pure pistillate plant and at the end of the sea son, or under artificial environmental stress, begins to develop a very few staminate flowers. If pollen from these few staminate flowers forming on a pistillate plant is applied to a pure pistillate seed parent, the resulting F1 generation should be almost all pistillate with only a few pistillate hermaphrodites. This will also be the case if the selected pistillate hermaphrodite pollen source is selfed and bears its own seeds. Remember that a selfed hermaphrodite gives rise to more hermaphrodites, but a selfed pistillate plant that has given rise to a limited number of staminate flowers in response to environmental stresses should give rise to nearly all pistillate offspring. The F1 offspring may have a slight tendency to produce a few staminate flowers under further environmental stress and these are used to produce F2 seed. A monoecious strain produces 95+% plants with many pistillate and staminate flowers, but a dioecious strain produces 95+% pure pistillate or staminate plants. A plant from a dioecious strain with a few inter sexual flowers is a pistillate or staminate hermaphrodite. Therefore, the difference between monoecism and hermaphrodism is one of degree, determined by genetics and environment"
"Therefore, the difference between monoecism and hermaphrodism is one of degree, determined by genetics and environment"
Benny
Member
Hi, Im not experienced in the least with the subject. However I do have 2 plants that had male pre-flowers, until I changed them to 12/12, now both have many little balls, and 3 or 4 white pistils comming from the top. does anybody have pictures of hermie's? I'll post a pistily picture once I put in on the comp. tongiht.
This question basically comes to the difficulty of removing intersexed traits from an ibl through inbreeding. Imho with any parent that displays a negative trait as long as it passes on such a high degree of desirability to its offspring that it more than compensates for any hindrance in selecting desirability caused by selecting against the undesirable trait. It's a worthy breeding plant as long as the breeder does the work to eliminate the negative trait in subsequent offspring.
For example, within a given sample population the more traits the breeder selects for the lessened average quality of each trait. So if a breeder finds a plant that passes on an extreme level of desirability to its offspring yet displays some intersexed traits. Its ok to use that plant as long as the breeder is willing to do the work to remove the trait before releasing it. If by the time the negative trait is removed from the gene pool seedline shows more desirability than if that parent wasn't used at all. The breeder will have made the wise choice.
F1's are different though. Intersexed traits can be easily masked in an f1. So when a breeder makes f1 seeds to sell, this becomes a question of whether or not the breeder feels the f1's will be used for breeding by his customers and whether the increased desirability of the seeds produced as f1's outweighs their diminished breeding potential. This is one of the main reasons f1's should not be used as breeding plants. They can appear to be true females even after undergoing stress but are capable of passing on intersexed traits.
One thing that djshort said that I really tried to believe but ultimately ended up disagreeing with is the use of seed bearing males. If a male produces any female flowers, sterile or fertile its really hard to judge to what extent the intersexed traits exist in that male simply because males flower substatially different from females. Imho males that display any intersexed traits whatsoever should be culled from a breeding program unless its an open pollinated preservation job.
For example, within a given sample population the more traits the breeder selects for the lessened average quality of each trait. So if a breeder finds a plant that passes on an extreme level of desirability to its offspring yet displays some intersexed traits. Its ok to use that plant as long as the breeder is willing to do the work to remove the trait before releasing it. If by the time the negative trait is removed from the gene pool seedline shows more desirability than if that parent wasn't used at all. The breeder will have made the wise choice.
F1's are different though. Intersexed traits can be easily masked in an f1. So when a breeder makes f1 seeds to sell, this becomes a question of whether or not the breeder feels the f1's will be used for breeding by his customers and whether the increased desirability of the seeds produced as f1's outweighs their diminished breeding potential. This is one of the main reasons f1's should not be used as breeding plants. They can appear to be true females even after undergoing stress but are capable of passing on intersexed traits.
One thing that djshort said that I really tried to believe but ultimately ended up disagreeing with is the use of seed bearing males. If a male produces any female flowers, sterile or fertile its really hard to judge to what extent the intersexed traits exist in that male simply because males flower substatially different from females. Imho males that display any intersexed traits whatsoever should be culled from a breeding program unless its an open pollinated preservation job.
purp&kush
Member
Chemdawg 101
if there were no plants kept that produced seed or hermed, mabey we would'nt have this plant thats all the rage, in chem dawg.
or sour diesel, or og kush. & these are some of the most flavorful strains i've tried.
High&Lonesome said:***Special thanks go to orgogliodiprovi and chemdog who helped me straighten out the story and exact details.***
Brief background:
At a Grateful Dead show at Deer Creek Amphitheatre, 'joebrand' (aka 'wonkanobe') and 'pbud' met 'chemdog' and sold him an ounce of very high quality pot for $500. joe and chemdog exchanged numbers and they later arranged for two ounces to be shipped to chemdog on the east coast. According to chemdog, one ounce was seedless and the other had 13 seeds.
• 'OG Kush' (the original cut) came from an s1 from in a bag of '91 Chemdawg in the Lake Tahoe area in 1996.
• 'Sour Diesel' aka ECSD came from an accidental cross of ('91 Chemdawg x Mass Super Skunk/NL)x DNL after the DNL hermed and seeded the room. The DNL's lineage is NL/Shiva x Hawaiian.
if there were no plants kept that produced seed or hermed, mabey we would'nt have this plant thats all the rage, in chem dawg.
or sour diesel, or og kush. & these are some of the most flavorful strains i've tried.
