Heritability of Intersex Traits

[englishrick]

Goodness that's a lot of language

language is my forte darling..,,,you know how many times i say "please will you CLOSE the light"..its not even funny,,,any1 who chats in other laguages will understand what im sayin,,,,,terminoligy with S1 and f1 is too crazy allready

How much are the breeders of other species concerned with epigenetics? I think epigenetics should be its own thread. We're getting off topic. Also Rick can't you at least google some of these terms and start spelling them right. It takes an extra five minutes but it helps.

you are 100% right,,,i cant wait

 

[kopite]

with relation to Y being bigger

In dioecious plants of hemp (Cannabis sativa L.), males are regarded as heterogametic XY and females as homogametic XX, although it is difficult to discriminate the X cytologically from the Y. The Y chromosome is somewhat larger than the X. Our aim was to analyse AFLP markers on X and Y, and to use them to gain some insight into the structure of the sex chromosomes. Markers located on the sex chromosomes can be grouped into different classes, depending on the presence or absence of a fragment on the X and/or the Y. They are detected by separately analysing male and female progenies of a single cross. Five markers were found to be located on both chromosomes. A few recombinants were observed for marker pairs of this class in the male progenies. Two completely linked markers located on the Y chromosome in the male parent show a recombination rate of r = 0.25 with sex. Recombination must have occurred between the sex chromosomes in the male parent. The recombination analysis led to the conclusion that there is a pseudoautosomal region (PAR) on the sex chromosomes, allowing recombination between the X and the Y chromosome. The other regions of the sex chromosomes show only a few recombination events, for the Y as well as for the X. These results are discussed in comparison to other dioecious plants

http://www.springerlink.com/content/66dvkww9kq9a7fx6/

 

[kopite]

your the teachers to me,,green,GMT,Tom,Kopite,amori l, an the rest,,,,,,i might be a kid in the head, an i admit that,

I am not a teacher Rick, I'm here to learn like yourself.

On the breeder front, we had a superb source of info as far as genetics goes in Charles, but after he was attacked by a couple of the big name breeders and all his work and posts in the thread was deleted by admin for making their salesmen look bad, he decided it wasn't really worth his time being here. He still pops in from time to time, but tends to keep things to PMs. Guys like Tom and Kopite who have years of experience and are willing to put their time into these threads are worth their weight in gold. I find a new way of looking at things and something new to research every week reading these threads.

With regards to my experience, you probably have more than myself as do many others I am a newb in respect. I enjoy reading your posts, I did not know the story behind Charles X but he seems very stand up and knowledgable, its a shame the powers that be saw fit to do what they did, but money talks unfortunately, I remember someone attacking Suzycremecheese on these boards aswell and now we suffer as a result.

Kopite

 

[GMT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMT
On the other hand, the Y is the shorter in length rather than being "bigger".

Hmmm, thought I read that the male sex chromosome in cannabis was larger/longer. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

lol now this is a red face moment, the research i have been following was involved in a specific plant and when reading other stuff that happened to be dealing with mamal studies (as I was researching something in particular rather than that issue), and in both cases the X Chrom is the longer strand, however it seems that after re-researching (due to yours and kopites posts) I now find that in most plants, as you say, the reverse is true. Here is a link showing the different states clearly http://www.microbiologyprocedure.co...ex-chromosomes-and-sex-linked-inheritance.htm



Quote:
Originally Posted by GMT
I think we need to move away from using the term degrading when discussing the Y chrom, and start to use something along the lines of "reducing in content". We can never get to the point that this becomes unhealthy, at least nature can't, I guess we could if we tried. At the point that more is being moved out of Y that it leaves the males at a disadvantage, theory would state that the plants holding "bigger Ys" would out perform and therefore out breed the unhealthy ones over time.

Couldn't some of the extra info in the Ys be deleterious and cause damage and therefore couldn't a smaller Y be out performing large ones?

Given that the aim of any species is to multiply, anything which increases the ability to do that is an evolutionary benefit. Genes that outperform will be passed on in greater numbers and as we have seen, neither one way or the other is advantagous. Its not that a bigger Y or a bigger X is an advantage for a girl or a boy, but that merely as the differences in content alter, and various info is passed into and out of the relevant genes, it alters their relative sizes. So if any info is passed on in one generation that is negative, whether the size of the chrom is larger or smaller than average, in the next generation that chrom will have a lower chance and rate of being passed on until it no longer exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMT
On the breeder front, we had a superb source of info as far as genetics goes in Charles, but after he was attacked by a couple of the big name breeders and all his work and posts in the thread was deleted by admin for making their salesmen look bad, he decided it wasn't really worth his time being here. He still pops in from time to time, but tends to keep things to PMs. Guys like Tom and Kopite who have years of experience and are willing to put their time into these threads are worth their weight in gold. I find a new way of looking at things and something new to research every week reading these threads.

Yeah when I got back online I figured nothing had really happened since I stopped visiting. Wish I had a chance to chat up Charles. PM me some more info if you wish, I hadn't even heard of him.

I'll send you a PM sometime later, i'm off to bed now. Its all a while back now, not much to tell I told ya most of by refering to it lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMT
Oh and Rick, yep quite right, hermy males contain more info in their Y than non hermy males in some circumstances, in others the non hermies havent turned those genes on, and in some non hermies they simply dont have them anymore. In hermie females its either the case of not having the male genes turned on or them not being present, though since no one has reported a girl who can't be reversed using chems, it stands to reason that at the moment, it is mainly the former.

How do you know that the intersex genes aren't autosomal? Not sure where you have deduced all this from. Do you differentiate between hermies and other intersex plants or do you use the terms synonymous. I guess I think of hermies as plants that show opposite flowers no matter the environment and I call intersex plants ones that will reverse in times of stress or perhaps very late in the flowering cycle. Never been sure if these are two different circumstances or if this is all the same thing occurring on a continuum. In fact, I've never read anything about it. Haven't there been some studies on this in hemp? Or even a similar dioecious/monoecious flowering plants?

Also hasn't Sam mentioned some plants he couldn't get to reverse?

No idea about sam's plants, it would be interesting if he had.
To me, and you may think this too simplistic, but if a girl grows a cock at 3 or 83, somethin's not right, ya know? And I feel the same way about my plants. To me, if a girl throws a banana, she's a hermie. Let me tell you my light schedule at the moment, in flowering my girls are getting between 8 and 14 hours of Bright light, in a 3 walled wardrobe, in a room with the blinds down. Now the blinds arent light proof, but they do daarken the room, however entering or leaving it causes light to come in. Which I do dozens of times a day/night. The lights on time for the plants is moving through real days and real nights as their day length no longer equals 24 hours or even the same length from one day to the next, with lights on to lights on being anywhere from 16 hours to 30 hours and can switch from one to the next. If they ever showed a single banana at any point they would not be allowed to breeed, but thats not a problem as they dont throw bananas as they arent hermies. Now if I applied chems to them, I have no doubt I could, (or rather someone could) get them to hermie. If I started to switch their bright light on and off at 2 hour intervals I'm sure they would throw a banana, but that wouldnt make them a hermie. So I guess there is a hermie line like a ph line where at some point you have to say hermie / non hermie like acid / alkaline. But a plant will fall somewhere along it.

To be honest, when discussing inheritance theories, its difficult to discount epigentics, (and I dont always mistype it, its just sometimes I dont edit mistakes, and I think quicker than I can type so often move onto something else before I have finished) and seiously doubt theres enough interest or knowledge here to say much more than "its not just what genes are there but which ones are switched on."

 

[englishrick]

breeders seeds get grown all over the world,,, in all types of grow ops,,,,,,,

breeders dont NEED to be ready for everones enviroment,,,,,,,they dont NEED be ready for every epergenic effect,,,targeted enviroments is the only way,,,so what if some phenos show intersexed traits...Pure and F1 are 2 different storys

 

[elmanito]

This is a good example of a male with pollinated female flowers at the top.Breeder from this strain has never seen this before.

Namaste

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Thanks kopite, always a pleasure.

GMT- great link, really perfect for a quick way for a layman to take a look at sex chromosomes, crossovers, and sex linked genes. That page is sticky good. Looking forward to your pm as well. Been enjoying your posts for a while now.

On the hermie vs intersex thing I think no one really knows the answer. But rest assured there appear to be some plants that grow half male half female and do it since birth and others seem to just pop a late nanner. I think they're all annoying and not worthy of mating. I do understand why you'd treat them all the same tho...at the very least they need to be cleaned up. But the pH scale metaphor is nice but I'm thinking that intersex continuum may have no bearing on what I refer to as hermies (ladies that reverse all over and from birth regardless of environment). It just sucks knowing none of us have the proper tools or financing to really unravel these questions. Sometimes I find this to be the worst effect of cannabis' legality...but then I remember I could be rotting in jail.

We're completely on the same page as far as chromosome size goes as well. I was just trying to get across the idea that bigger isn't always better which apparently you already understood.

I'm pretty sure Sam said he had a few plants that he can't get to reverse and I know some of DJ's selections have problems getting the pollen to drop and getting seeds to set. Now pulling apart the mystery if they're just using a bad chemical reversal recipe, if some lines have strong reversal blocking traits, or if some of these plants are simply too inbred to properly mate is another issue altogether. VanXant have you ever found an individual that you couldn't get to reverse? Have any been harder to reverse and required a tweaking of the recipe or has it been all smooth sailing? I'd appreciate your input here if you're reading.

Anyway great thread, thanks everyone for sharing thoughts and experiences. The Breeders Lab doesn't suck right now, lets keep this up folks.

 

[Jones]

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[GreenintheThumb]

Yes. But there could be autosomal genes that induce male flowers and the plants with these genes we refer to as hermies or intersexed.

Yes. There's no reason to think a plant that shows female flowers in a wide range of environments and even when stressed is anything but XX.

Because the expression of male flowers is regulated by said hormones. We don't "know" how to feel happy but when your neurons dump a shit ton of serotonin in your synapses you feel happy. That feeling is modulated by the neurotransmitters in the same way that the expression of male flowers is regulated by those hormones.

Not sure on all the stress hormones.

 

[Jones]

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[GreenintheThumb]

I thought the term true female was used to denote females that can only be reversed using hormones.

Fantastic article, ganna take me a while to digest it. Thanks for the posts.

 

[Jones]

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[GreenintheThumb]

That would imply that every feminized seed that was made by spraying plants with hormones is from 'intersexed' plants.

Sorry about that, my mistake. Meant to say true female is plants that only reverse with hormone sprays. I'm ganna go change it in edit.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Thanks for the heads up on Charles. I'm reading all his posts, he spoke a bit on this subject over two and a half years ago

Quote:
... you just need a female plant, but one that has thrown off a few male bananas ... the pollen in those male bananas is already 'feminised' pollen
As a point of elaboration: The implication read in the above statement is that the plant in question is a true female, that underwent some degree of stress, that resulted in the formation of a few male flowers, and not a spontaneous, genetically controlled hermaphrodite.

The former case results in feminized offspring from seed; the later, in offspring that carry the spontaneous hermaphrodite gene. All female Cannabis plants have the ability to produce male flowers, it is an insurance mechanism that cannot be bred out.

Quote:
The degree to which any particular plant displays a hermaphroditic response to stress is strain dependant.
An extrapolation of this statement is: because you've bred feminized plants, doesn't mean that you didn't also inadvertently breed plants with a tendency towards hermaphroditism. Observation and accurate, detailed record keeping will reduce the likelyhood of this occuring (unless its intentional; the truly outstanding drug cultivars from Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam and Laos are hermaphrodites).

Spontaneous hermaphroditic females are not the "female with one male flower". One can be reasonably assured that if a female plant displays only one male flower, then she is quite stress resistant, and is therefore suitable for feminization experiments.

However, like all other breeding, the outcome can only be an educated guess, until the completion of progeny tests.

Sincerely,
Charles.

p.s. I trust that the self-quote will not be perceived as arrogance. I referenced it so as to redirect to the previous post.

C.X.

 

[Jones]

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[GreenintheThumb]

Missed that question but I'd have to emphatically say yes.

The real problem is stress testing actually requires a trial. Breeders need to purposefully damage their environment in an effort to test the plants. Unlike most every other trait we care about which allows us to keep the ladies as happy as possible in our well adjusted gardens. I think because of that nearly every breeder skips the stress testing. It takes a lot more effort/space/time. I think a lot of breeders see intersexed individuals in their customers gardens and think it's all the customer's fault for having a crappy environment when in reality the plants could be very happy and just sitting in a slightly different medium/pH. If you only grow your plants in a single fine tuned environment can you say anything about the rate of intersex in your population?

 

[Fuel]

Some selected cuts can't be reversed, it's a fact. From this point i consider than i'm face to a "true female" who don't known how produce male flowers in any condition tested.

But, it keep a selective pressure for reach a targeted quality in smoke... i mean it's included on and the efforts are not totally "dedicated" to it. Or we will make clothes with our plants...

How to ask to breeders a sort of "stress control" when each have a different consideration about it. Somes kill all herms, some keep them for make fem' seeds and others like to study them in theyr generic cross.

Breeders have proven now i think than hermaphrodites is a pure technical consideration and depend on the product choosen, then his goals.

I have liked a lot a reply who explain clearly the separation of products by the need of the grower. Some strains must be putted on side for beginner and others for experienced growers. Why cry "herm" when the market of feminized is more healthy than ever ? I find it hypocrite by the customers side.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Read through the Sex Determinism paper...had a bit of time to digest. Certainly an interesting read and I'll pull a few quotes out of it. One thing to note is that most of this is speaking about monoecious hemp varieties. As to how it all applies to the drug pool, I don't know.

"The chromosome number of Cannabis sativa is generally accepted (2n=20). Even if a XX/XY
mechanism is accepted to control the sex of diploid dioecious varieties, the Y chromosome role is not
certainly established. In the experiments on hemp polyploids - forms which raise special problems -
Warmke and Davidson, 1944, Rizet, 1946, Nishiyama et al., 1947, and Takenawa, 1953 found that
individuals with XXY and XXXY formula are females. Grişko, 1937 (cf. Arnoux, 1969) considers that the
determinants of phenotype and those of sexualization are independent. The sex, in his opinion, is not
determined by particular chromosomes, but by the genome assembly, and by the gene and chromosome
interactions. All individuals are, in this manner, able to express one or the other sex. The same author also
talks about the existence of a phenomenon of cytoplasmic heredity for feminized males which could inherit
in this way the maternal cytoplasmic features. "

How did they know they got XXXY and XXY plants? Does anyone have this study or pictures of these polyploids?

"Another subject of basic
disagreement between these two authors refers to the real genetical nature of male phenotypes with male
flowers that appear in descendance of monoecious plants. For Hoffmann, these are XY types, different from
the true male, because their crossing with a dioecious female gives in descendance only 28 - 36% male
individuals, not 50% as were expected."

Thought that was interesting too considering Sam noticed Haze didn't follow the typical 1:1 m:f pattern.

"Frankel and Galun, 1977 affirm that the males are X/Y, and the females are X/X. Besides that, the allele
Xm exists, that determines the appearence of male flowers in female inflorescence. Thus, X/Xm plants have
female inflorescence, but they can be not strictly females. Depending on genetic and non-genetic additional
factors, these plants tend to masculinization, reason for which Kőhler named them “subgynoecious”. The
Xm/Xm plants will have female inflorescence, but functionally are males. Considering the results obtained in
various studies on polyploids by other researchers, Kőhler concluded that the masculinizing genes are
autosomal and they are balanced by femaleness carrying genes of X chromosome, while the Y chromosome
is “empty” under the aspect of sex determining genes.
Analysing these arguments and hypotheses, the following models were established:
- male plants with male inflorescence: X/Y, Xm/Y;
- male plants with female inflorescence, Xm/Xm;
- variable phenotypes, from true females to monoecious plants, but all with female
inflorescence, Xm/X;
- female plants with inflorescence of female type, X/X. "

This seems to be a good representation of what we see in the drug pool.

"Some authors express doubts especially on types of agronomic interest, namely of monoecious forms
with female phenotype. For example, Hoffmann considers that these forms can be derivable from male,
being XY or even XX. Nevertheless, Sengbusch suggests that these forms are originated from a mutation
that induces the maleness of the true female and they are XX. However, in 1961, Sengbusch will admit the
existence of monoecious forms with female phenotype, with XY formula."

What I don't understand is with the theories that don't follow the X/Y hypothesis: Why do they even consider plants XX or XY if the Y isn't responsible for maleness. What makes it XY when it's a female phenotype?

Certainly an interesting read but I had to google a few terms that i've never even come across. Feeling a bit out of my depth. Anyone else have any comments or observations on it?

 

[GMT]

The customer is NEVER wrong. Its like an american car company talking about stupid buyers buying japanese. If you are in business then it is your responsability to offer the customer what they want, and then to deliver what you promise to. If the customer goes elsewhere, or doesn't like not getting what was promised, it is not the customers fault if they complain about it. On the other hand, if the creator of the product is totally honest about it, and the customer accepts the risk, then that is when they should accept what happens. No point betting red, and complaining about it coming up black.

 

[GMT]

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