Heritability of Intersex Traits

[Silence]

hay kopite,,,,

ive been lookin for a paper you droped me a while ago an i can find it to save my life,,it was a fab paper an i feel i need it to answer my question,,,,it was basicly about how plants swing backwards and forwards from being hemaphrodite to being dioecious

It may of been something from a L delph ?

maybe these are better?

http://www.plantcell.org/cgi/reprint/1/8/737.pdf
http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/reprint/94/2/141
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC160357/pdf/051241.pdf

 

[stagger lee]

Hey, I wondered where you MF's have been? If I might add feminized genetics are much more likely.......... lol! just kidding I know no one wants to hear it! thought the sex chromes were the tenth set, but probably wrong!? some great posts in last few pages... strictly,silence and Gthumb! will try be content w/just reading in an effort to keep thread from being locked down! PEACE!

 

[Cannabologist]

- Someone had asked someone about a study about Yamada... maybe in another thread..

- I'm looking for that study and 2 others, all old studies, on this issue of intersex traits and genes.

- The other 2 are not in english though.. Unhappy face.

- A point for all to consider, I know these studies find a gene, called Sm, that causes the appearance of some male inflorescenes on female plants.

- This means that this gene, can be expressed or not expressed; thus you could breed with intersex plants that will pass on this gene, but will themselves never express the intersex phenotype (even under stress?...).

- Also implies only a genetic test will actually allow one to determine whether a plant has intersexing genes; stress testing may not always work, and breeding testing crosses is a long, arduous, and costly process.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Who did the Sm study, what language is it in? It can't really be that old if they found specific genes, weren't you the guy posting studies from the 30s. What are the chances that there's one simply inherited gene for intersex? Damn I hope it's that simple.

 

[wrongwrong]

I say its heritable,

in the LSD's running now.. from the original "reversed hermie male" the female ratio has gone up.. though it should be noted none of the females have shown any intersex tendencies,, none whatsoever so far.. of the so called "males" 3 out of 5 so far have shown pistils with the balls and a high resin content.. I will put pics up ltr of the "males", so to me its appearing on the "males" as it did originally.

I'd like to be able to confirm the males as males and not females showing a bit of hair

Edit: goes againts my own logic referring to them as males, intersex fems or stam fems it is!. the other 3 also showed pistils.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

You need a larger sample to say ANYTHING about sex ratios.

 

[wrongwrong]

You need a larger sample to say ANYTHING about sex ratios.

I have gone thru 50 odd the swing is always the same GitT... we don't all have warehouses the results are less males, more fems and more of the what I term intersexes.

 

[elmanito]

Other factors like temp N:K ratio, seed age etc are also involved in the ratio of fem:males.You don't need a greenhouse to test the ratio, just more plants per m2, 40 plants in 11 liters containers per m2.

Namaste

 

[wrongwrong]

Other factors like temp N:K ratio, seed age etc are also involved in the ratio of fem:males.You don't need a greenhouse to test the ratio, just more plants per m2, 40 plants in 11 liters containers per m2.

Namaste

Hi,

This test for me was to see what a "backward hermie male" would pass on.. more of the same I thought... so this was the original male... and the other pic is the sort of thing i'm seeing in the progeny on the "male" side... for the record the ratio was females 34, "males" without pistils 2, other "males" ie pistilite 3 to 4.. so its heavy in females... don't think I just sprouted 10 odd seeds and this was it.. there were 50 odd done before them too... results were sim.

Edited:28/12/11

It would seem that the "males" are all intersex.. should be interesting to see if they seeds from intersex to intersex from somas pool produces intersex free progeny...

 

[highonmt]

imo [at the min]

all canna works on an X/autosome system not an active Y,,,sterility mutations have caused the divishion of sexes

Bold statement based on what may I ask...a paper that is now a decade old...hmmm If I was a betting man I would lay money on the theory of non coding dna being the culprit here. Probably some sort of gene switching segment and gene modulation sequences near the x chromosome or perhaps non-coding JUNK dna within the chromosome itself. Perhaps the RAPD and AFLP markers noted by Flachowsky et al., 2001 who described several AFLP markers showing fragments only in male plants as well as those found by Peil et al. 2003, Mandolino et al.,
1999 and Törjék, et al., 2002. The fact that both epigenetic and genetic factors are at play seems to implicate some type of sex 'switch' dna segment I like to think it is genetic switches that when triggered down regulates dna that codes for the protiens producing auxins and other female hormones and up regulation of dna coding for protiens that produce male hormones that causes the sexual phenoypic differences. Perhaps the pure females have a modification of one or more of these switch segments that prevents up regulation of gibberillins and other masculine hormones. and visa versa in pure males... luckily I'm not a betting man...Damn cool subject tho thanks for the great thead. Here is a review that includes detailed references to the above intertexual references.http://www.bio.uaic.ro/publicatii/a.../papers/2007/2/2007_Anale_GBM_VIII_f2_l07.pdf
HM

 

[browntrout]

I'm not sure if anyone has said this but hybrids made from a hermie in my experience have always turned out plants without the intersex trait. I've even seen plants and plants grown outdoors from seed also are less likely to show intersex traits.

 

[stickshift]

Yes & yes.

Some would have a tendency to freak even later on when false light was allowed tho.^^ ( but never when in total dark)

I'd say you get like 75% females, and like 25% of these females would be phrone to freak under influence of false light.
Remainder would be 12.5 % males, 12.5% early hermies.

NB. In my batches. ^^ ( I can't know the genetic make up of others ppls plants ofc.)

Plants I bred him out to where: Mindbender, Californian Orange, Cannabia, White Russian, Bubbelgum.

For me just because something gets triggered by either the on set of flowering(light change) or as some state put in too early, not enough light penetration etc, does not mean because it has that response that it is a given the plant will show intersex traits throughout. As you state yourself once the plant got over this and was left without light leaks it did not show intersex. It tells us (IMO) certain responses for certain things (it doesn't mean that an early intersex trait will give another response ie full on ruined crop etc etc).

 

[GMT]

Yeah, but it's not a good omen though is it.

 

[stickshift]

Yeah, but it's not a good omen though is it.

Well as long as you accept it for what is, ie in NL I always get this regardless of lights used or how long bred for etc, it's heritable within the NL family it would seem. But it is always only this type at the switch of flower, so some hormone level hits the stress trigger etc.. I personally think theres a whole list of triggers and different varying expressions. Do we chuck them all?

 

[GMT]

well, preferably yes.

 

[Tom Hill]

and be left with nothing,,,,, we do not grow enough numbers for that to be an option, none of us, ever. Go there at the expense of taking your eye off the prize, and then convince yourself that this guy was cute, like the ultimate cheap date. It doesn't wash, it just doesn't.

 

[GMT]

You're not really saying that in your opinion, with all the strains and crosses out there, that if the hermies were chucked, there would be nothing left worth having are you?

 

[Tom Hill]

If we could say once a nightmare always a nightmare you might have a point. But we can no more correctly say that than once perfection always perfection. You get to place a few bets in selecting plants - stop trying to run the board on too many of them because you'll loose, way more often than if you just focus in on what really matters. Outside germplasm is always nice, but when you're attempting to select for the moon and beyond in simultaneous selections, better prepare to settle on outside germplasm to be the main worth.

 

[Tom Hill]

not that there's anything wrong with that

 

[Tom Hill]

How much does it cost us, to pass up phenotype #1 in favor of phenotype #3 each generation, to follow that paradigm? Too damn much is the answer, especially when a significant percentage of the time phenotype #1 is no worse off genetically than phenotype #3, as the family history plays out in regards to this particular quantitative trait. We only get to place so many bets, don't squander them.