Heritability of Intersex Traits

[Tom Hill]

GMT,

I am surprised, your propensity for numbers and the subject and then this. I would refer you to Charles' response to Sam's similar argument (and hyb often goes on about this too - along the lines of Sam that is) to which Charles replied -and I heartily agree-..

"The Afghan IBL example you provided is a subset of the theory. You should very well know that the scenario described (the described was the horrors of selfing - Tom) will not hold true for every individual. The fault is in the selection process, not the determining theory."

( https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=1365161&postcount=50 ) ^^^

I refer to this as I know we share a great deal of respect for the way the man (Charles) lays it down. I would get into his pointing fingers of scoff at those who poddy mouth the reversal -and selfing in particular- but that was on another site.

My point is this. Yes yes, selfing will lead to all the things we fear on average, but we need to go way beyond averages for that is where the meat is bro.

I will gladly trade you and be much more confident with my best out of 10 S1's for the same of your 5 on 5 in the middle of most breeding projects, as this is the way the numbers are from my view all days of the week. So it is only numbers again, a time and place for all, and zilch on selfing to be poddy mouthed given ample numbers.

PS, P1 X P2, not 2 P1's. Who said anything about 1, we need to self several G0's, G1's, G2's etc in order to beat the maths ..

 

[Honkytonk]

I'm sorry to invade the widely offtopic armchair research posting but since Mr.Hill still seems to read this I got a question.

The imvho 'easiest' thing to test the heritability of intersex traits would be crossing a 'true fe(male)' and an intersexed plant. Grow the progeny and look how the intersex trait segregates.
I kinda have a hard time finding information if this has been done even for the easiest to spot inheritance patterns (monogenic autosome dominant/autosome recessive).
Do you have any information about research done that does not involve crossing dioecious plants to monoecious plants?

Thanx for your insight in advance.

 

[Tom Hill]

If the easiest thing references the most efficient path, then selfing the candidates is a much easier way. If the candivar segregates sexually, then this tells us much more than the other path where outside genotypes are entered into the equation.

 

[Honkytonk]

If the easiest thing references the most efficient path, then selfing the candidates is a much easier way. If the candivar segregates sexually, then this tells us much more than the other path where outside genotypes are entered into the equation.

Ok. Has this been done?
I'm asking because I've read that many consider the intersexed trait a complex trait at the beginning of the thread, yet I can't find info when and how it was ruled out that it is a 'simple' trait with regard to it's inheritance.

 

[englishrick]

Honestly Cannaboy,,,,,getitreal is 1 dude i value alot,,,,,hes 1 of the kings of femininzation,,,,im hangin on his words bro,,,thats the truth

 

[Tom Hill]

Ok. Has this been done?
I'm asking because I've read that many consider the intersexed trait a complex trait at the beginning of the thread, yet I can't find info when and how it was ruled out that it is a 'simple' trait with regard to it's inheritance.

Yes it's been and is being done all across the plant and animal world. There are only a few hold-outs who believe sexual expression to be a simply inherited trait anymore. All that I have read on the matter is prefaced by admitted assumptions on the mode of inheritance regarding sexual expression. All that I have seen leads me to believe that sexual expression in at least some percentage of any given population is no less complex than yield or other quantitative traits.

 

[englishrick]

i think it simply a matter channeled expreshion,,,,the weed is what we make of it at this point in time

imo,,,,,,,,the fact that our plants can reverse sexuality by chemical aplication tells us our plant are sexualy bipotant



[Ainsworth 2000]...sorry about the coppy and paste
In a number of dioecious species, including Mercurialis annua (Durand and Durand, 1991), Cannabis sativa (Mohan Ram and Nath, 1964), Spinacia oleracea (Sherry et al., 1993), and Humulus species (Shephard, 1999), the divergence of the male and female developmental pathways occurs extremely early in foral development and the inappropriate organs are not initiated; in all these species the male fowers resemble perfect fowers whilst the female fowers are strikingly di€erent. In most species, however, both sets of sex organs are initiated and the inappropriate set of organs develops to some extent before abortion.

 

[Honkytonk]

Ok. My train of thought...
If stress response is needed for a plant to reverse sex, could the cause for the intersex expression be found in the stress response system and not in the sex determination mechanism? Could it still be a case of simple inheritance?
I'm intrigued by research done on stress response of other plants, esp. if I read that some species release ethylene as a stress hormone to hasten or delay flowering.
In the light of the known effect of ethylene on cannabis I wonder if there's a relation to stress disrupted sexual expression of cannabis.
Sadly, there seems to be no info what exactly happens in cannabis plants if stressed.
Is the idea that the release of stress hormones disrupts the sexual expression of cannabis because the stress hormone(s) are actually the 'same' as or interfere with the 'sex hormones' probable or idiocy? Could the cause for an overly active/sensitive stress response system still be a matter of simple inheritance?

 

[cannaboy]

Sorry for this I was tired last night and post 226 on the page before, I ment to tell greenin the thumb that but mised the multi quote not getitreal sorry dude,, real sorry for the confusion he likes to knock people down when there higher than him..

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Are you too dense to know that hyb was mocking you in your sig cannaboy? Ya know he got banned again yesterday for mocking you in this very thread that you derailed with bullshit assumptions. Good thing the mods are here to make sure no one calls anyone else a ****, wouldn't want them wasting time keeping facts strait and maintaining order.

HonkyTonk- if intersex was simply inherited it'd be completely gone by now. That's pretty much the gist of it. As far as the stress hormones being the same/similar to the sex hormones and causing interference: it's very likely that this is the case IME. However, it's not certain and this may very well not be the full picture.

Tom-glad to see you.
"There are only a few hold-outs who believe sexual expression to be a simply inherited trait anymore. All that I have read on the matter is prefaced by admitted assumptions on the mode of inheritance regarding sexual expression. All that I have seen leads me to believe that sexual expression in at least some percentage of any given population is no less complex than yield or other quantitative traits. "

>>>>>>are you talking about sexual expression AND intersex traits or just regular sexual expression? What evidence is there of a more complex inheritance of sexual expression? Haven't you found all your plants to be 50-50 male-female?

 

[GreenintheThumb]

i think it simply a matter channeled expreshion,,,,the weed is what we make of it at this point in time

imo,,,,,,,,the fact that our plants can reverse sexuality by chemical aplication tells us our plant are sexualy bipotant



[Ainsworth 2000]...sorry about the coppy and paste
In a number of dioecious species, including Mercurialis annua (Durand and Durand, 1991), Cannabis sativa (Mohan Ram and Nath, 1964), Spinacia oleracea (Sherry et al., 1993), and Humulus species (Shephard, 1999), the divergence of the male and female developmental pathways occurs extremely early in foral development and the inappropriate organs are not initiated; in all these species the male fowers resemble perfect fowers whilst the female fowers are strikingly di€erent. In most species, however, both sets of sex organs are initiated and the inappropriate set of organs develops to some extent before abortion.

Why even bother to copy and paste that from 2000. He's going off of data gathered in 1964. Do you think maybe it's out of date yet?

You say the fact our plants reverse with HORMONE sprays proves they're sexually bipotent? If I shoot you up with estrogen and you grow tits does this prove that you are sexually bipotent?

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Does anyone have a link to this article?


Sex determination and sexual organ differentiation in flowering plants
Journal Forestry Studies in China
Publisher Beijing Forestry University, co-published with Springer-Verlag GmbH
ISSN 1008-1321 (Print) 1993-0372 (Online)
Issue Volume 6, Number 4 / December, 2004
DOI 10.1007/s11632-004-0031-3
Pages 50-57
Subject Collection Biomedical and Life Sciences
SpringerLink Date Thursday, July 05, 2007

It's by Hou Yanan , Li Fenglan and Gao Shumin

 

[GMT]

Hi Tom
Yes I agree with all that, what I was suprised by was the thought of you appearing to switch tac. I tend to think of you as someone who's aim is to preserve as much of the natural genome as you can. A park ranger to the canna genome. Whereas with selfing what "one" is doing is attempting to advance the genome. A canna genocide on those members of the populace who are merely average. It just seemed at odds with my personal image of your work. I certainly wouldnt knock either path, and suspect you tread both paths but I was commenting on my suprise for your support for selfing given that image I held rather than at disgust for selfing pracitices.

Green, if we pumped Rick full of est. and he grew tits, no that wouldnt make him a woman, nor would the rest of the surgery, but if it was enough to make him able to breed with a male then it would in my view.

 

[englishrick]

no1 is pumping me full of estrogen,,,no matter what drinks you buy me,,,,,let me just make this clear,,,

hay ,,,if i gave birth to a healthy baby,,,id be questioning my own sexuality,,,,fukin hell,,,,,,that would be the worst ring sting ever

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Don't worry Rick, you'll be positively glowing once we get that baby in you. BY THE POWER OF ALLARD WE WILL GET THIS MAN PREGNANT! I thought my calling was cannabis and for years I've scoured for every breeding text I could get my hands on? What was my real mission? To use the accumulated cross breeding facts to get Ricky boy pregnant. A man's GOT to have goals. You're ganna be all over Oprah, strap in.

Okay, enough fun.

So no one's got or has read the article I listed earlier? I really want to check it out but haven't found the full text anywhere. I miss my old pub med password. Here's the abstract:

The research in the genetics of sex determination and the differentiation of reproductive organs in flowering plants has long been a topic in recent years. Understanding the genetic and molecular mechanisms that control sex determination in flowering plants relies on detailed studies of the differentiation of sexual organs. Current theories about sex chromosomes have illuminated the mechanisms of plant sex determination. In addition, recent progress in cloning floral homeotic genes which regulate the identity of the floral organs has generated molecular markers to compare the developmental programs of male, female and hermaphrodite flowers in several species. In this review, the authors focus attention on these recent findings and provide a brief overview of the genetics of plant sex determination and the mechanism of sex determination gene expression and gene programs.

On the first page it mentions cannabis, rumex, humulus, and silene as an active Y heteromorphic sex chromosomes. Then it goes into detail on Silene: it has mapped sections of the Y that are dominant male factors and female suppressing factors. It won't change sex with hormone sprays and a single Y can suppress three X chromosomes. They also say that autosome ratios have no profound effects on the sex determining factors of the Y chromosome.

I wonder if on the next page they go into as much data about cannabis or if this specific research has even been conducted on the herb. Anyway, someone try to dig this article up or post it if you have access to research databases because of school/work. Thanks.

 

[englishrick]

whos the dady?


il have a look for that paper you mentiond Green bro


check this table out,,,, http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/94/2/141/T1

this is from [2007]

 

[hoosierdaddy]

whos yer daddy

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Yeah, I've seen it before. Again it just makes me want to read the 1943 Yamada study. Looks like they already checked the viability of the YY genotype. Something I'd LOVE to have a look at.

In looking for the Yamada study I found this one that I haven't read in a few years pretty great info:

Comparison of Hemp Varieties Using Random Amplified Polymorphic DNA Markers
Silvia Forapani, Andrea Carboni, Claudia Paoletti, V. M. Cristiana Moliterni, Paolo Ranalli,
and Giuseppe Mandolino*

link for the pdf

http://crop.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/41/6/1682.pdf

 

[englishrick]

whatamess,,,,,,

 

[Baba Ku]

Sorry, I don't have the paper as I am recovering whitepaperaholic.
But I would be glad to read it if anyone can share.


(howd he do dat???)