Heritability of Intersex Traits

[cannaboy]

Top pice of information...

 

[StrictlyGateway]

...at the min im having a hard time distinguishing the genetic difference between hemaphrodite`s and monoecious specimines ,,,i understand the phenotipic differences but not the genetic differences

you know, this post (and who it's from) represent all that is wrong with internet posting.

this is probably one of the best questions posed so far and instead of being complemented for his inquisitiveness and willingness to learn, rick just gets ripped on publicly...and he continues to come back for more. keep the questions and comments and postings coming rick. (i'm not saying they are always clear, but i'll read 5 bad ones to get 1 good one...call me patient).

this is just it. this whole thread is about genetic coding, sexual determination. etc. not once has anybody brought up the possibility that it's a physiological question not a genetic question.

i pose this...at least in terms of the genetic code, what we think of as hermis in cannabis is only a phenotypic difference. (and NO, i'm not saying this is for sure...it MAY be)

photoreceptors (phytochrome, for example) have been proven to act at the protein level in plants. through proteins, these photoreceptors are then able to affect genetic expression.

so in my mind a couple of questions arise:
1. is there only 1 gene that is responsible for sexual determination?

2. how do we even know that the ability to produce viable pollen on a female flower (which is hermi...not monoecious, by definition), how do we know that this is even part of the sex determination genes. perhaps that ability comes from a different gene(s) altogether, which are responsible for stress tolerance, for example.

in the case of light....light leaks (light stess) cause bananas to be produced.

in the case of chemical stress (colchicine and silver colloidal)...we are able to get male flowers from female genetics.

personally (plant bio background), i don't think it's possible to rid the genetic code of the ability to produce pollen from a female plant. there is a level of stress, be it light, chemical, or other? that will produce pollen on a female...and it may not be connected to the sex determination genes at all. or, it may be connected to the sex determination genes AND still not be able to be bred out.

when breeders do as tom hill is doing by introducing light leaks and adjusting breeding stock from there (a big THANK YOU on that extra step and time!), they aren't 'breeding out the trait', they are simply choosing that stock which has a higher tolerance for the particular stress.

an interesting addition to the trials that tom is doing, would be to not treat light leaks as all the same. there are different photoreceptors for different wavelengths of light. so, a blue-light leak, may have a different effect than a red or far-red light leak, because the photoreceptors are different and the proteins and genes they effect are also different.

food for thought.


once in a while you can get shown the light...in the strangest of places, if you look at it right.....thanks for all your posts rick!

 

[supermanlives]

i bet mango wood would be great on the grill, nice smoking mango wood and either fish or chicken

 

[GreenintheThumb]

this is probably one of the best questions posed so far and instead of being complemented for his inquisitiveness and willingness to learn, rick just gets ripped on publicly...and he continues to come back for more. keep the questions and comments and postings coming rick. (i'm not saying they are always clear, but i'll read 5 bad ones to get 1 good one...call me patient).

He isn't praised for it because he's read enough to know the answers already. However mostly he just muddies the waters. Monoecious plants have unisexual flowers but on distinct flowers (incomplete flowers). Hermies have both sex on one plant but on the same flowers (complete flowers).

this is just it. this whole thread is about genetic coding, sexual determination. etc. not once has anybody brought up the possibility that it's a physiological question not a genetic question.

Physiological problems ARE genetic questions...

i pose this...at least in terms of the genetic code, what we think of as hermis in cannabis is only a phenotypic difference. (and NO, i'm not saying this is for sure...it MAY be)

It's certainly not true.

so in my mind a couple of questions arise:
1. is there only 1 gene that is responsible for sexual determination?

No one knows.

2. how do we even know that the ability to produce viable pollen on a female flower (which is hermi...not monoecious, by definition), how do we know that this is even part of the sex determination genes. perhaps that ability comes from a different gene(s) altogether, which are responsible for stress tolerance, for example.

We don't. I didn't think anyone was thinking this. The sex determination gene(s) most likely are not the sexual differentiation gene(s).

in the case of light....light leaks (light stess) cause bananas to be produced.

A plant with a genotype for stress produced intersexed flowers in the right environment will do so. They need to be stress tested and eliminated.

in the case of chemical stress (colchicine and silver colloidal)...we are able to get male flowers from female genetics.

It isn't a stress it's a hormone treatment. There's nothing wrong with using these as parents.

personally (plant bio background), i don't think it's possible to rid the genetic code of the ability to produce pollen from a female plant. there is a level of stress, be it light, chemical, or other? that will produce pollen on a female...and it may not be connected to the sex determination genes at all. or, it may be connected to the sex determination genes AND still not be able to be bred out.

No offense man, but you don't exactly strike me as an expert. You have no evidence on the subject.

when breeders do as tom hill is doing by introducing light leaks and adjusting breeding stock from there (a big THANK YOU on that extra step and time!), they aren't 'breeding out the trait', they are simply choosing that stock which has a higher tolerance for the particular stress.

Again we're not really sure how it works. But I very much want parental stock stress tested. And I very much so respect Tom. Something you don't see me saying to very many breeders.

 

[StrictlyGateway]

Monoecious plants have unisexual flowers but on distinct flowers (incomplete flowers). Hermies have both sex on one plant but on the same flowers (complete flowers).

pretty sure that's what i was saying (lower in the post)

Physiological problems ARE genetic questions...

uh, really? how do you figure?
and what is a physiological problem?

It's certainly not true.

oh really?
you make some bold claims for a topic that lacks very many peer-reviewed scientific articles.

No one knows.

exactly my point.

We don't. I didn't think anyone was thinking this.

well perhaps they should have been.

The sex determination gene(s) most likely are not the sexual differentiation gene(s).

are you kidding? are you really parsing my words at that level. sex determination is a very commonly accepted vernacular.

A plant with a genotype for stress produced intersexed flowers in the right environment will do so. They need to be stress tested and eliminated.

can you show me evidence that the intersexed flowers is not just a physiological adaptation, rather than a different genotype. and i'm not taking that crap that phys = genes.

It isn't a stress it's a hormone treatment. There's nothing wrong with using these as parents.

uh...no it's not. silver colloidal. really? so there is a plant hormone called silver colloidal? that's new to me. then again, i'm no expert

so i repeat my previous comment...it is a chemical stress and the response is to produce male pollen on a female flower.

No offense man, but you don't exactly strike me as an expert.

none taken.

You have no evidence on the subject.

photoreceptors effect genetic expression...i thought i said that?

Again we're not really sure how it works.

that's weird?! judging by your tone with folks that pose perfectly viable hypotheses...you'd think the jury rendered their verdict years ago.

But I very much want parental stock stress tested. And I very much so respect Tom. Something you don't see me saying to very many breeders.

100% agreement.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

pretty sure that's what i was saying (lower in the post)

If you say so...

uh, really? how do you figure?
and what is a physiological problem?

I figured because physiology is determined by genetics.

oh really?
you make some bold claims for a topic that lacks very many peer-reviewed scientific articles.

So why do you think only SOME plants respond to light stress?

are you kidding? are you really parsing my words at that level. sex determination is a very commonly accepted vernacular.

Maybe if you read some more of those peer reviewed papers you'd know the difference between sex determination and sex differentiation.

can you show me evidence that the intersexed flowers is not just a physiological adaptation, rather than a different genotype. and i'm not taking that crap that phys = genes.

Physiological adaptions are passed through the genes. Different physiological adaptations ARE different genotypes by definition.

uh...no it's not. silver colloidal. really? so there is a plant hormone called silver colloidal? that's new to me. then again, i'm no expert

Have you noticed that silver collodial sucks? And I call them hormone sprays because they mimic or inhibit hormones. I don't like to call them stress treatments because plants that reverse in stress treatments should be eliminated while hormone treated plants are fine parents.

so i repeat my previous comment...it is a chemical stress and the response is to produce male pollen on a female flower.

So I repeat that you are mistaken.

that's weird?! judging by your tone with folks that pose perfectly viable hypotheses...you'd think the jury rendered their verdict years ago.

I didn't know you could hear my tone in text

 

[StrictlyGateway]

2. how do we even know that the ability to produce viable pollen on a female flower (which is hermi...not monoecious, by definition)

re-posted in response. bold face added here.

 

[lost in a sea]

some strains (lines) will hermi easy,, some wont ever, no matter how stressed (naturally)

so the way i see it is some lines have a greater genetic predisposition towards throwing mixed traits under various stress conditions,, possibly as a naturally bred in trait that has been selected for,, or in my opinion more likely due to poor human selection over 10's of thousands of years,,,,obviously by leaving hermi's accidentally and killing males so their crops werent too badly seeded,, because ganja was made into hash along time before it was bred to be good enough to smoke in herb form,,,

a healthy good male in a healthy environment(& natural one) should always out compete retarded mixed trait individuals,, simply because they throw out so much more pollen,, and i would have thought that a pure male line would out compete mixed trait genetics within the population within less than 100 cycles,, unless there is some strange bald ape like creature coming frequently along and hacking the big healthy male down and not spotting the shitty hermi's..

i think people should always buy more seeds of the strain they want and kill anything they dont like the look of,, instead of being a couch grower that wants it all out of a 5 or 10 pack,, hence all the mediocre femmed shite on sale these days..

people say they love the plant but most just love themselves

 

[StrictlyGateway]

If you say so...

see above. i wish i knew how to quote from multiple posts

I figured because physiology is determined by genetics.

and genetics is physiology if you want to speak like that.

So why do you think only SOME plants respond to light stress?

either they have a higher stress tolerance for the particular stress and the threshold has not been reached, or they have an adaptive mechanism which allows them to ameliorate the effects of the stress (which is kind of the same thing).
case in point....have you ever wondered how plants deal with a full moon (well i have)...that's a lot of light in some places. furthermore, it's light during the critical dark period. well, some plants (maybe all, i don't know) can twist their leaves to the point that the effects of that light aren't as bad...meaning, the photoreceptors are not perceiving the amount of light that they would otherwise.

Maybe if you read some more of those peer reviewed papers you'd know the difference between sex determination and sex differentiation.

sexual determination DETERMINES the development of sexual organs in an organism....that's what we are speaking about, right?

Physiological adaptions are passed through the genes. Different physiological adaptations ARE different genotypes by definition.

intersex individuals is not a physiological adaptation...it's a physiological response to external stimuli. the plants genetic code has phys responses built in and they can then be transcribed into the phenotype as a result of experiencing a particular stimulus.

Have you noticed that silver collodial sucks? And I call them hormone sprays because they mimic or inhibit hormones.

for somebody that rails on others for making up their own terms 'willynilly', you sure don't have a problem doing it yourself. their are 4 classes of plant hormone...and silver colloidal is NOT one of them.

I don't like to call them stress treatments because plants that reverse in stress treatments should be eliminated while hormone treated plants are fine parents.

that's fine, but that's what they are. it is a chemical stress treatment. not all feminized seeds are done through silver colloidal, though. it's probably the colloidal ones you would reject.

the hormone treatment you are speaking of is gibberellin. i'm not sure how they do it...but that's a plant hormone.

but, i'm with you. i'd reject stress treatment in favor of hormone treatment or cubing, any day.

So I repeat that you are mistaken.

yea, no...my statements regarding silver colloidal being a chemical stress vs. a plant hormone are completely, 100% accurate.

 

[StrictlyGateway]

some strains (lines) will hermi easy,, some wont ever, no matter how stressed (naturally)

i'm not ready to buy the line that there is a strain that won't ever hermi as a result of stress. you may have a strain that has a VERY high tolerance, but plants rely on dark periods of a certain length. if that is interrupted, all hell is going to break loose. that being said, strains are going to have different levels of threshold for the particular light stress. the quality and severity of a light stress is going to depend both on duration and wavelength.

but there should be no doubt that 'proper' breeding for a cultivar line should include exposure to stresses that the line is likely to occur (see tom hill's posting earlier on this thread of the stresses they think about...i'll plug him all day knowing that he takes the time and effort to actually do this!). for the grower, that's enough; for the breeder though, they shouldn't stop at that level, they really should see what the effects are on the Filials rather than the Parents, cause that's what really matters.

huh?...i just realized, that's full circle...maybe i don''t think a quick trigger is necessary ) the future of knowledge on cannabis is SO bright. i love being alive in these times!

 

[GreenintheThumb]

and genetics is physiology if you want to speak like that.

But you said 'rather than.' I think physiology is a phenotype determined by environment and genotype.

either they have a higher stress tolerance for the particular stress and the threshold has not been reached, or they have an adaptive mechanism which allows them to ameliorate the effects of the stress (which is kind of the same thing).

Or maybe some have NO intersex traits at all but i guess that's 'kind of the same thing'.

case in point....have you ever wondered how plants deal with a full moon (well i have)...that's a lot of light in some places. furthermore, it's light during the critical dark period. well, some plants (maybe all, i don't know) can twist their leaves to the point that the effects of that light aren't as bad...meaning, the photoreceptors are not perceiving the amount of light that they would otherwise.

I sure haven't wondered how plant's 'deal' with the full moon. You know why? Because that's the natural environment they evolved in. I think it would be pretty stupid to wonder how any plant dealt with the moon. You only think of it as a light stress because the indoor rooms marijuana growers use are completely pitch black.

sexual determination DETERMINES the development of sexual organs in an organism....that's what we are speaking about, right?

The sex determination genes are the X or Y type of genes. The sex differentiation genes are the ones responsible for the physical development of the different flowers.

not really. adaptations can RESULT in a change in the genetic code over time (generations).

Adaptions ARE the change in the genetic code. How do you think we grew the thumb?

but intersex individuals is not a physiological adaptation...it's a physiological response to external stimuli. the plants genetic code has phys responses built in and they are then transcribed into the phenotype as a result of experiencing a particular stimulus.

And the code had to be there to be activated by the environment.... Like if you don't stress test your parents they may still have the genotype for intersex but because you didn't put them in the right environment you'd never know.

for somebody that rails on others for making up their own terms 'willynilly', you sure don't have a problem doing it yourself. their are 4 classes of plant hormone...and silver colloidal is NOT one of them.

First of all respect for saying 'willynilly'. I've never used SC and prob never will. I thought I made my point clear why I distinguish between stress tests and hormone treatments.

that's fine, but that's what they are. it is a chemical stress treatment. not all feminized seeds are done through silver colloidal, though. it's probably the colloidal ones you would reject.

the hormone treatment you are speaking of is gibberellin. i'm not sure how they do it...but that's a plant hormone.

but, i'm with you. i'd reject stress treatment in favor of hormone treatment or cubing, any day.



yea, no...my statements regarding silver colloidal being a chemical stress vs. a plant hormone are completely, 100% accurate.

Okay. I'm not a silver colloidal expert, you brought that one up.

 

[StrictlyGateway]

Or maybe some have NO intersex traits at all but i guess that's 'kind of the same thing'.

i just don't think that's possible to have a genetic code of a plant that does not have, built-in, the ability to respond to various environmental stimuli by producing pollen on a female flower...short of GMO (and even then maybe).

BUT i do believe that we can selectively breed strains with a higher tolerance for light stress (and other common stresses) and a lesser propensity to display the intersex traits as a result of those stresses.

I sure haven't wondered how plant's 'deal' with the full moon. You know why? Because that's the natural environment they evolved in. You only think of it as a light stress because the indoor rooms marijuana growers use are completely pitch black.

I think it would be pretty stupid to wonder how any plant dealt with the moon.

right there...that's the tone i'm talking about. you ask rick to re-read his posts...why don't you? your comment was not that bad...and then you basically call me stupid. that sentence was extraneous to the point you were making and only served as a personal attack. i'm not offended, because i'm not stupid. i'm just pointing things out. we all live in glass houses.

regarding moonshine
you might imagine that if somebody had a plant that suddenly threw a banana as a result of what was later diagnosed as a light leak, during the course of troubleshooting perhaps one might contemplate how outdoor gardens deal with a full moon? or if they even need too? plus, not ever having one, i've always wondered if the light of the moon messed with an od garden...call me crazy, i have many thoughts in my head at all times

it is the dark period that is critical to any flowering plant indoors or out. we should think of light leaks as light stress because that's what they are. they are stressing the plant because they shorten the amount of critical dark to below its threshold. as a result, the plant needs to make sure that it is able to survive in a changing environment (one that now has light stress). so, it changes the expression of it's sex in an effort to reproduce offspring which are adapted to this environment.

so the problem as i see it...we have no clue how many genes could possibly be responsible for the numerous changes. i would suggest that the answer is more than one, which complicates our ability to completely get rid of this survival mechanism exponentially.

And the code had to be there to be activated by the environment.... Like if you don't stress test your parents they may still have the genotype for intersex but because you didn't put them in the right environment you'd never know.

couldn't agree more.

Okay. I'm not a silver colloidal expert, you brought that one up.

i think i just misunderstood you.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

i just don't think that's possible to have a genetic code of a plant that does not have, built-in, the ability to respond to various environmental stimuli by producing pollen on a female flower...short of GMO (and even then maybe).

BUT i do believe that we can selectively breed strains with a higher tolerance for light stress (and other common stresses) and a lesser propensity to display the intersex traits as a result of those stresses.

We may not be able to. I'm with you brother. It'd be nice if there was proper research on this sort of thing. But lacking that I'm going to take Sam at his word and believe he has some clones that won't reverse. He doesn't usually steer people wrong, at least when he bothers to respond.

right there...that's the tone i'm talking about. you ask rick to re-read his posts...why don't you? your comment was not that bad...and then you basically call me stupid. that sentence was extraneous to the point you were making and only served as a personal attack. i'm not offended, because i'm not stupid. i'm just pointing things out. we all live in glass houses.

regarding moonshine
you might imagine that if somebody had a plant that suddenly threw a banana as a result of what was later diagnosed as a light leak, during the course of troubleshooting perhaps one might contemplate how outdoor gardens deal with a full moon? or if they even need too? plus, not ever having one, i've always wondered if the light of the moon messed with an od garden...call me crazy, i have many thoughts in my head at all times

it is the dark period that is critical to any flowering plant indoors or out. we should think of light leaks as light stress because that's what they are. they are stressing the plant because they shorten the amount of critical dark to below its threshold. as a result, the plant needs to make sure that it is able to survive in a changing environment (one that now has light stress). so, it changes the expression of it's sex in an effort to reproduce offspring which are adapted to this environment.

so the problem as i see it...we have no clue how many genes could possibly be responsible for the numerous changes. i would suggest that the answer is more than one, which complicates our ability to completely get rid of this survival mechanism exponentially.

I'm with you on all of this.

 

[englishrick]

its a fugin p-a-r- tey,,anone fany a splif?

blowing my mind,,friggin amazing stuff,,,your creating the skyline

party-on ,,,,exelent!!


ps,,,i think sams [irriversable plants] are a sterile mutation,,,,

 

[hoosierdaddy]

CS and STS work essentially in the same way, by introducing silver ions to the plant. These ions are known to block the reception of the ethylene that is naturally produced by the plant. When ethylene is not received, ethylene that is essential to the formation of the female flower, the plant responds by allowing the autosomenal regions to take over and kicks the intersex trait into gear. The plant can also respond from other "stresses" similar to the silver ions blocking ethylene reception (note I say reception because the silver does not stop the production of ethylene) stresses such as photperiod types. The plant has the natural ability to block ethylene reception on it's own as a response to the stress(s). Chemical stressing is nothing more than manipulating the mechanisms the plant possesses.

The sex of the plant was determined by the either the incorporation, or the lack of incorporation, of the male (Y) chromosome at the 8th pair in the DNA strand during meiosis. That chromosome cannot be, and will not be, changed in the plants lifetime. *except in the case of mutation, which can be both spontaneous and random, all bets are off.

 

[englishrick]

imo [at the min]

all canna works on an X/autosome system not an active Y,,,sterility mutations have caused the divishion of sexes

 

[Silence]

imo [at the min]

all canna works on an X/autosome system not an active Y,,,sterility mutations have caused the divishion of sexes

then why do they have male markers ? the sex is heteromorphic, the markers have been found, so explain your theory..

More recently, Sakamoto and various co-authors have used RAPD to isolate several genetic marker sequences that they name Male-Associated DNA in Cannabis (MADC), and which they interpret as indirect evidence of a male chromosome. Several other research groups have reported identification of male-associated markers using RAPD and AFLP. Ainsworth commented on these findings, stating that "It is not surprising that male-associated markers are relatively abundant. In dioecious plants where sex chromosomes have not been identified, markers for maleness indicate either the presence of sex chromosomes which have not been distinguished by cytological methods or that the marker is tightly linked to a gene involved in sex determination."
Environmental sex determination is known to occur in a variety of species. Many researchers have suggested that sex in Cannabis is determined or strongly influenced by environmental factors. Ainsworth reviews that treatment with auxin and ethylene have feminizing effects, and that treatment with cytokinins and gibberellins have masculinizing effects. It has been reported that sex can be reversed in Cannabis using chemical treatment. A PCR-based method for the detection of female-associated DNA polymorphisms by genotyping has been developed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11202435
http://www.springerlink.com/content/t491042240h422v8/



perhaps you are better looking at how Silene works etc.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1460265/pdf/9691057.pdf
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/18/8/1442

 

[StrictlyGateway]

the plant responds by allowing the autosomenal regions to take over and kicks the intersex trait into gear.

so the intersex trait is activated by the non-sexual part of the sex chromosome? or the non-sexual part of the genetic code?

this statement tells me that the intersex trait are aligned/connected to that part of the code which dictates a plant's response to stress, rather than the sex chromosomes.

why this makes a breeders life so difficult is that we are now dealing with multiple chromosomes and my betting money is that stress response is attached to multiple chromosomes and will vary upon the nature of the stress. so, to breed out the intersex trait for light stress will be one step, chemical stress another...and so on down the list of possible stresses which result in the intersex trait being displayed?

am i misunderstanding the statement hoosier? my gut (and mind) tells me this is exactly what we are dealing with, but i'm not sure if all this work has been done yet, or not?

great post man!

 

[hoosierdaddy]

It is my belief that the intersex trait mechanisms exist in many areas of the genome, including the sex determining gene. And I tend to agree with the mechanisms being more in line with stress response genes than sex determining genes. It sure does answer some questions if it is so. I think there are many layers to the onion.

 

[englishrick]

hay kopite,,,,

ive been lookin for a paper you droped me a while ago an i can find it to save my life,,it was a fab paper an i feel i need it to answer my question,,,,it was basicly about how plants swing backwards and forwards from being hemaphrodite to being dioecious